Is it really an issue of gender equality?

[broca]

Ok, I'm going to ignore the little demon sitting on my shoulder saying "Nooo, don't do it!" and post here. Now i haven't read all the posts here, so maybe someone else already said this:

I would love to see a video game story written by a female, not too coloured by genre clichés. What kind of characters would she present? What would their relationships look like? What would the actual gameplay look like? Wouldn't that be exciting?

You do know that the scriptwriter for the new Lara Croft was Rihanna Pratchett? And if you want to know more about her thoughts on writing females, i would recommend this interview.

http://www.killscreendaily.com/articles/interviews/tomb-raider-writer-rhianna-pratchett-creating-men-boobs-and-writing-vulnerable-lara-croft/

 

[JazzJack2]

Here's an analogy: let's say there's a party with a bunch of rich, powerful people plotting to dominate a small country, and they've walled themselves off so that even though everyone is invited to the party, most can't access or interact with the destroyers. Thus the argument is made that "hey, everyone has access to the party, so it's fair". Meanwhile, sensible people don't bother going to the useless party.

This analogy is so inapplicable to this situation it's absurd to even discuss it.

The industry is so corrupt and so dominated by infantile sociopaths (or people who believe they must simulate infantilism to "sell games")

citation needed

that sensible people of both genders stay away.

If that where the case then why are there plenty of sensible and rational people in the games industry?

The fact that women tend not to enter the games industry is not their problem, it's a signal that the games industry is not appealing to them,

And why should it need to appeal to women? The fact that women don't find the games industry appealing only becomes a problem for a games company if that company wants to appeal to women, and whether they do or not is entirely the companies choice.

and the reason it's not appealing is that especially the mainstream industry produces games where the protagonist is a sociopathic superpowered murderer who's "saving the world", one corpse at a time.

Except that isn't exclusively repulsive to women you know? so it has nothing to with gender.

So "no one is being denied their rights" is deluded and ignorant at best, downright disingenuous and propagandistic at worst.

Please tell me whose rights have been denied by the games industry.

 

[Dante dynamite]

Of course its not a gender issue but people are convinced that it is. There is homogenization in triple A gaming how long have people been complaining about all the shooters? it's basically the same thing except for protagonists, except this time it came with a huge heap of agenda and social justice warriors. Maybe instead of just asking for more female characters we could ask for more creative games which would fix more problems.

But also why can't games just be the things we have fun with sometimes.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I agree with the TL;DR of the OP.


Kickstarter is a HUGE thing right now. If there was a massive market for primary female pros then I am sure you could get quick funding there. And though it wasnt addressed here, it was pointed out kind of in Jim's episode regarding "Remember Me" They played up that they supposedly had to fight hard to have the primary character of that female. I really dont believe it. The game was generic and dull regardless of what the protagonists gender was. They were likely just saying they had such a hard time with the pro to get sympathy preorders.

agree with the tl'dr portion also.

also, to you desert punk, i say this:

Step 1: Hire Nicholas sparks to write your story/characters (female at least)

Step 2: Hire half competent team to program/design game

Step 3: Collect garbage truck loads of panties and cash via kickstarter


(if you didn't know, nicholas sparks books sell like motherfucking hot cakes to women)

OT: I'm more of the opinion that a developer should be able to do as they wish, just as any artist is able to do also, whether that is listen to the audience (to possible add stuff in or for a future project) or to go with their vision of what they want to do.


Quite clearly, plenty of games have been selling like hotcakes, it's hard to tell a dev "But make this game here!" when the games they've been making have been getting them plenty of profits, which as you pointed out, kickstarter hopefully can "kickstart" some better female leads/ideas so AAA dev's and publishers can see that "hey, we can make decent female leads/characters and ....people will buy it?!?! holy shit, go for it!"

 

[MammothBlade]

If the problem the game industry has with female protagonists went away, and we got some diversity among them, we wouldn't be here talking about it. Frankly it's on the game industry to change, not us. It seems a lot easier for the gaming industry to give up the hang ups it has towards sexual, and racial diversification.

Expecting the status quo to stop being an issue when it is an issue with people is absurd. It doesn't matter how small it seems to you, it's something in the eyes of people causing no end of irritation.

Once they do that, you'll likely get your wish. People will redirect their attentions. Dunno where, but they will as this won't be something to talk about.

Not really... I care a lot about such issues in wider society, but until we realise it's a SYMPTOM and not a root cause, then we'll get nowhere. You can paint a tiger with leopard spots, but it's still a tiger underneath.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

If the problem the game industry has with female protagonists went away, and we got some diversity among them, we wouldn't be here talking about it. Frankly it's on the game industry to change, not us. It seems a lot easier for the gaming industry to give up the hang ups it has towards sexual, and racial diversification.

Expecting the status quo to stop being an issue when it is an issue with people is absurd. It doesn't matter how small it seems to you, it's something in the eyes of people causing no end of irritation.

Once they do that, you'll likely get your wish. People will redirect their attentions. Dunno where, but they will as this won't be something to talk about.

Not really... I care a lot about such issues in wider society, but until we realise it's a SYMPTOM and not a root cause, then we'll get nowhere. You can paint a tiger with leopard spots, but it's still a tiger underneath.

Yeah, it's kinda absurd. You honestly expect people to ignore this? Videogames are deeply rooted hobby in people's lives. And people will always want representation.

I'm curious, though. What exactly would you fix to change the gaming industry's views on female protagonists?

Well, as much as I distance myself away from larger, societal concerns look at it like this:

Games get female protagonists that a woman would dress like in normal life and not be embarassed, somewhat often. These games get commercials, and marketing on par with guy only games. Women join in on gaming. With games getting more and more multiplayer, women will play more with guys, and vice versa. Especially as they stop getting rare, and guys will get used to female gamers. With generations coming up gaming, this will help create a better comradery between the genders.

With the common bond and less bad stigma behind the hobby, videogames can bring people together. People without common interests with locals can find people over the internet, and forge friendships, or greater relationships.

With the popularity of videogames, we have the opportunity for rolemodels. Not necessarily realistic people, but these stories can provide some message, and characters can carry one. Games don't have to be dumb, lowest common denominators. They can be, but they don't all have to be.

As games connect people across the world, or at least an area, it allows avenues of communication.

Of course I could be reaching, here. Still, I can't pretend that there's zero odds that something deeply ingrained into our culture can't do anything to make it better. It's not my major talking point, though.

 

[briankoontz]

Here's an analogy: let's say there's a party with a bunch of rich, powerful people plotting to dominate a small country, and they've walled themselves off so that even though everyone is invited to the party, most can't access or interact with the destroyers. Thus the argument is made that "hey, everyone has access to the party, so it's fair". Meanwhile, sensible people don't bother going to the useless party.

This analogy is so inapplicable to this situation it's absurd to even discuss it.

The industry is so corrupt and so dominated by infantile sociopaths (or people who believe they must simulate infantilism to "sell games")

citation needed

I'll cite entire books: the David Kushner classics Masters of Doom http://www.mita.lt/uploads/files/96840060_document_2_13464824385073.pdf and Jacked: the Outlaw Story of Grand Theft Auto but the majority of the industry is infantile so "citation needed" is a remarkable response.

that sensible people of both genders stay away.

If that where the case then why are there plenty of sensible and rational people in the games industry?

There are a lot of idealists in the games industry, those who want to help people through games, and a variety of purposes of game developers. Idealists aren't necessarily sensible.

The fact that women tend not to enter the games industry is not their problem, it's a signal that the games industry is not appealing to them,

And why should it need to appeal to women? The fact that women don't find the games industry appealing only becomes a problem for a games company if that company wants to appeal to women, and whether they do or not is entirely the companies choice.

The issue we were discussing is why women don't want to be in the industry. I agree that if the industry wants to intentionally exclude women as both customers and employees then having game after game after game where the player is a sociopathic superpowered murderer is a pretty good strategy - it's worked great so far.

and the reason it's not appealing is that especially the mainstream industry produces games where the protagonist is a sociopathic superpowered murderer who's "saving the world", one corpse at a time.

Except that isn't exclusively repulsive to women you know? so it has nothing to with gender.

Men are more accomodating to playing as a heroic killer. There's a gender bias.

So "no one is being denied their rights" is deluded and ignorant at best, downright disingenuous and propagandistic at worst.

Please tell me whose rights have been denied by the games industry.

If the Mafia is the only employer in town and they allow you to join them but you refuse since you're not a murderer, they can claim "we're not infringing on your rights to find a job" while effectively preventing you from having a job.

Women are being excluded from the industry based on the games the industry is producing. Not ALL women, just most of them, which is why allhuman-friendly games like The Sims sell so well to women. So well that despite being a truly great series many men don't play The Sims due to insecurity.

Noone is saying the games industry should stop making games where the player is a rampaging murderer. But when 80% of games feature the player as a sociopath who views the world around him as being filled with monsters or enemy soldiers in need of death in order to "save the world", this has a massive negative impact on the appeal of games to the majority of women as well as many men who are uncomfortable with playing a sociopath, especially with the frequency encouraged by the industry.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

This is why I don't particulaly care if a female character is overtly sexualised, better than playing as a guy for the fourteenth million time. I'm also a big enforcer of 'less talking, more doing', if you don't like this or another, then stop ranting about what you don't like and prove the alternative can be successful. Stop waiting for somebody to make it for you, take some initiative people. If it's something you care about then act upon it.

But then I can say that easily, I can pull any sort of design from my ass. So it's harder to emapthise with people who cannot, so yeah.

 

[MammothBlade]

I'm curious, though. What exactly would you fix to change the gaming industry's views on female protagonists?

Well, as much as I distance myself away from larger, societal concerns look at it like this:

Games get female protagonists that a woman would dress like in normal life and not be embarassed, somewhat often. These games get commercials, and marketing on par with guy only games. Women join in on gaming. With games getting more and more multiplayer, women will play more with guys, and vice versa. Especially as they stop getting rare, and guys will get used to female gamers. With generations coming up gaming, this will help create a better comradery between the genders.

With the common bond and less bad stigma behind the hobby, videogames can bring people together. People without common interests with locals can find people over the internet, and forge friendships, or greater relationships.

With the popularity of videogames, we have the opportunity for rolemodels. Not necessarily realistic people, but these stories can provide some message, and characters can carry one. Games don't have to be dumb, lowest common denominators. They can be, but they don't all have to be.

As games connect people across the world, or at least an area, it allows avenues of communication.

Of course I could be reaching, here. Still, I can't pretend that there's zero odds that something deeply ingrained into our culture can't do anything to make it better. It's not my major talking point, though.

Maybe you're right in that some thought-provoking games can encourage a change in attitudes. Gradually. But, there's often a limit to how far it might reach. A lot of people are so closed to new experiences that it won't penetrate their skull. And society creates more of these people every day. I'm just a wee bit cynical in that regard, I guess.

Of course, if it makes a difference for the individuals that count, that's good.

And what, approximately, might one of these "AAA" female-oriented games look like?

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Regardless, the issue at hand exists despite semantic arguments: for whatever reason (and there are a lot of them), people want more women in games. Attempting to dispute one makes little difference to the sum of the point.

But the fact of the matter is that the economics don't support the theory. A lot of people want nice cars; but they don't want to pay for them. When the market shifts in favor of this, determined *solely* by the consumers, the industry will automatically shift accordingly.

Sadly I've seen a few good games, with varied characters, fail simply because there was no consumer support for the project. It irks me when people blame the industry for not giving them what they want when they refuse to support the industry in doing so.

 

[JazzJack2]

I'll cite entire books: the David Kushner classics Masters of Doom http://www.mita.lt/uploads/files/96840060_document_2_13464824385073.pdf and Jacked: the Outlaw Story of Grand Theft Auto but the majority of the industry is infantile so "citation needed" is a remarkable response.

I am not going to read a 200 page book for the sake of internet argument, can you give me a summary of it's contents or tell me specific chapters relevant.

There are a lot of idealists in the games industry, those who want to help people through games, and a variety of purposes of game developers. Idealists aren't necessarily sensible.

And again there are plenty of sensible people in the industry who are not idealists, and guess what they don't sit around complaining about how games aren't appealing to them, they instead take the initiative and make games that do appeal to them.

Men are more accomodating to playing as a heroic killer. There's a gender bias.

Oh look more unsubstantiated bullshit!

If the Mafia is the only employer in town and they allow you to join them but you refuse since you're not a murderer, they can claim "we're not infringing on your rights to find a job" while effectively preventing you from having a job.

Oh look more nonsense analogies that are completely inapplicable to the situation! you really love those don't you?

lets break this down:
-The Games industry is not equivalent to a monopolising Mafia, at most you could say the major companies are several competing Mafias. (although this is still nonsense since the business practices of a games company cannot be equated to those of a Mafia)
-These Mafias aren't the only employers in town, anyone is completely free to work for, or start, a small or even indie games dev.
-Someone refusing to join a company because the company is not appealing to them is not a moral objection, someone refusing to do a job because they have to murder is.

Women are being excluded from the industry based on the games the industry is producing.

Except this is bullshit! women are not being purposefully excluded, women just don't find it appealing, massive difference.

Not ALL women, just most of them, which is why allhuman-friendly games like The Sims sell so well to women.

What a patronizing view of women you have.

So well that despite being a truly great series many men don't play The Sims due to insecurity.

Care to substantiate this claim?

this has a massive negative impact on the appeal of games to the majority of women as well as many men who are uncomfortable with playing a sociopath,

Yes clearly these game lack appeal, this must be why the video game industry is losing millions a year and is in a dire state, oh wait!

who are uncomfortable with playing a sociopath, especially with the frequency encouraged by the industry.

If anyone feels uncomfortable (to the point they are put off entirely) with performing relatively tame fictional acts in a fictional world then they need to grow up.

 

[generals3]

Women are being excluded from the industry based on the games the industry is producing. Not ALL women, just most of them, which is why allhuman-friendly games like The Sims sell so well to women. So well that despite being a truly great series many men don't play The Sims due to insecurity.

Noone is saying the games industry should stop making games where the player is a rampaging murderer. But when 80% of games feature the player as a sociopath who views the world around him as being filled with monsters or enemy soldiers in need of death in order to "save the world", this has a massive negative impact on the appeal of games to the majority of women as well as many men who are uncomfortable with playing a sociopath, especially with the frequency encouraged by the industry.

Tunnel Vision, tunnel vision... There is a brickton of games which don't involve going on rampages. Sports Games, Simulations, Puzzle Games, City/Empire builders (like Caesar, Civilization, etc.), random "lol" games like angry birds, and so on. Off course if you decide to pretend the AAA gaming industry = the whole gaming industry than yeah you're probably right.

And what is this nonsense about insecurity leading to men not playing The Sims? Studies have shown men are very into competitiveness and violence in VG's, something the Sims does not offer. Trying to pass off preferences as "insecurity" is just a really bad attempt at putting your own tastes on a high pedestal.

 

[wetnap]

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/05/stunning-college-degree-gap-women-have-earned-almost-10-million-more-college-degrees-than-men-since-1982/
There is a total loss of perspective in such discussions. People talk as if there were a crisis, an emergency to fix when as noted by the chart linked above, actually women are now earning disproportionately more degrees.

Being concerned about not enough women in the games industry is based on a questionable assumption, if not as many women play games as men, why would you expect there to be just as many working in the industry to create them, and why is it assumed a good industry. As noted by the chart above, it seems many gamers are just living in their moms basement at this point and its a problem growing at an alarming rate...

Its like people who claim they are so concerned about "women" are actually completely focused on the wrong things. Do you want equality in the number of womens basketball fans or do you want more degrees. It seems with no help at all from the "concerned" about women crowd, they have chosen the later.

Same goes with the concern about women in tech or games industry. Both industries are volatile, people lose jobs all the time, and become obsolete, and conditions can be bad, man or woman. So many women choose to go into industries like healthcare instead, because people always are born, get sick and die, and so there is job security, union protection, and decent wages. Women make up the majority in the health profession, whether it be doctors, or obviously..nurses, yet if they had listened to many of those who claim they are concerned for and helping women, I'm sure they would be in a worse position today than they are now.

So much of this concern is misguided its not funny.

 

[ForumSafari]

which is why allhuman-friendly games like The Sims sell so well to women. So well that despite being a truly great series many men don't play The Sims due to insecurity.

Actually if the rest of male 'gamers' are anything like me they're not playing The Sims because it's fucking boring. It's pointless, has minimal goals and frankly stretches the definition of a game.

Be very careful deploying the 'it's because you're insecure in your masculinity' argument, it's scarcely ever right and it's most commonly used as a shaming tactic.

 

[Fox12]

After watching the latest Jimquisition ("Creative Freedom, Strings Attached"), and following gaming on "the internets" of late, there is a lot of voice (not specifically Jim's) given to 'gender equality' being a pressing issue for games, gaming and gamers.

They do say if you want to fix a problem you must first acknowledge it. And I just don't think gender equality is the real issue. There are comments speaking about the number of male protagonists vs. female protagonists. But that isn't what gender equality is about.

Gender equality is about equal opportunity (the same applies to race, etc). As an example, look at education. In some times and places, women were denied the right to an education. So were black people, and other favoured prejudices. That is an issue of equality. If, say, a university denied access to women.

If, on the other hand, there was no policy barring women from enrolling in any class of choice, but instead gender became irrelevant to an application, that would be equality. Now say someone was worried that 90% of the students enrolling in Engineering were male, that would not be an issue of "gender equality". This is what would be called a problem of "gender diversification".

I know it may just be arguing semantics, but there are key differences. No one is being denied their rights - as a matter of fact, the 'issue' arises from people exercising their rights - choosing for or against Engineering as a course. The issue is a 'cosmetic' one - there is nothing really wrong with 90% of Engineering students being male, and also nothing to prevent a future time where the proportion is reversed - but it "looks bad". In the example, what usually happens is that the University enforces a policy to favour female applicants. But this is inherent discrimination, and should never be looked at positively (at best a "necessary evil").

I mention this because I do believe gaming has issues. Gender/race/etc diversification is one, as is over-sexualization of females; they are issues because they "look bad", and as such are a barrier to the medium. But both of those are expected given the proportion of white male game developers - you write about what you know. You can't expect the creative process of game design to adhere to a numbers policy without that policy being somewhat draconian and restricting the creative process. It's already a problem in other areas of game design - do we really want to push gender there too?

tl;dr - It's not about sexism or gender equality...it's about the lack of a natural diversity of protagonists. There is no simple solution, and attacking any creator's choice of gender for their creation is going away from a solution, not towards it. What say you?

For the most part I agree with you, but I think there are still problems with gender equality, and here is why. Male and Female characters aren't treated equally, and it isn't because of gender diversification.

Elizabeth was removed from the cover of Bioshock Infinite because she was a female character, and relegated to the back of the bus so to speak. Sure you could see her on the reverse side, but you would almost be forgiven for not thinking she was even important. Naughty Dog had to really fight to get Ellie on the cover, as the marketing department insisted that it would hurt sales to have her on the front... specifically because she's female. Instead they wanted the grizzled white guy by himself (probably carrying a shotgun while walking slowly toward you with explosions in the background). I'm sure, if they'd had their way she would have enjoyed a cozy spot on the back of the game as well.

I think this is an old way of thinking, and it's dying out quickly, especially as games become more diverse. It was also nice to read a sexism post that was well thought out and intelligent.

 

[Cecilo]

which is why allhuman-friendly games like The Sims sell so well to women. So well that despite being a truly great series many men don't play The Sims due to insecurity.

Actually if the rest of male 'gamers' are anything like me they're not playing The Sims because it's fucking boring. It's pointless, has minimal goals and frankly stretches the definition of a game.

Be very careful deploying the 'it's because you're insecure in your masculinity' argument, it's scarcely ever right and it's most commonly used as a shaming tactic.

Men as when you look at them as a group usually seem to enjoy having a set goal, something to tackle and accomplish, and while you can set goals for yourself in the Sims, and I believe the latest Sims game has mini micro goals that give your characters more points to spend on skills or some such, that isn't really much to go on.

Plus, I already live my life, I don't need a life simulator.