Is it selfish to prevent people from commiting suicide?

[Bas Smeets]

Don't people that are driven to suicide deserve to be selfish in their last act?

To answer the original question with my own opinion: preventing suicide can be a selfish act, depending on your motives. But if you can accept that later on the one you tried to save still wants to die and you let him, all you've done is given them a chance to reconsider. I think it's worth the risk to give them that chance.

Also: there are very few ways to kill yourself without hurting people that care. Barring 'heroic' death I haven't been able to come up with any. So now I'm pretty much resigned to waiting for them to die off first.

 

[SinisterGehe]

To remove my right to control my life. To remove my right to end my life it removing my humanity. It is my fundamental right to control my life. I am human because I understand the difference life and death, the fact that I know that I can end my life when I so choose gives me perspective and means to see the goods sides of this world. I know that If I get in to a situation which I can not bare or do not want to bare I can end it all. It is my fundamental right. Just as I have right to life, I have right to die - and taking this away from me is declining my right to live as I see fit.

I suffer from severe pain condition caused by my dystonia and doctors do not promise that it will get better or that it wont decline. But if my condition would start to decline and the drugs are not enough to control it anymore, I would want to end my life. Human life is not supposed to be wasted by lying on the bed and being unable to do anything else than suffer, unable to experience life and enjoy it. In my opinion that is against the idea of living, it is not living, it is dying slowly without the ultimate death in the end. Death waits somewhere in the future, but it is not because of my condition, it is because it is the ultimate end, but I do not want to suffer and wait for it. I want to be able to live or to die. And I am in control of my life, it is not in the hands of anyone else.

But it's not your fundamental right to control your life. Guide your life sure, but not control. There are things that happen to us all every single day that take decisions out of our hands or encumber us with extenuating circumstances. To think we are in some sort of omniscient control of our existence is false. You can kill yourself, you have that ability, but nothing says it will ultimately work the way you want. There are a ton of botched suicides out there, and some of them are due to some very odd and coincidental things. Does that mean those people lost their humanity? No, but you do lose your humanity if you do kill yourself. You absolutely lose it when you cease to live. However bad we hurt, to decide to end it is pure self centered thought. The only way a person can decide to kill themselves is if they truly care only about how they feel. To live for others is selfless and something to be admired. To help each other to reach that is the highest honor we can bestow each other. However, it is no better if you only live for yourself either. When you choose death though, you remove any possibility of life getting better. You remove anything that could have made your life meaningful. Tomorrow you could save someones life, or a miracle cure could come out for your condition (which btw I am very familiar with, having a friend with it too.), that may be a long shot but there are a trillion things that can happen every day to change our conditions and outlook on life. Your freedoms end where an others begin, and nobody has the right to burden others with a lifetime of sorrow and regret because they want to destroy themselves. I can't believe that anyone who has actually dealt with a suicide in the family or close friend could feel otherwise.

I think the amount of opinions in this article that are purely concerned with it being a persons right are a result of the "me" society we live in. It seems the only society cares about anymore is promoting self centered thought. We are now entitled to everything, everything is now at our convenience. As a result, the society in most first world countries is becoming incredibly selfish. We seem to all now believe we can do anything we want regardless of its impact on others, which is a shame considering how far the smallest kindness goes.

SO you are saying I am forced to live no matter how much I suffer or don't want to live, because there are people who want me to live and change that life can change? If I do not want to see the tomorrow, no matter if it is for the better or for the worse, I can not end my life. If I do not want to life, I can't end my life. Because there are other people who want me to live?

SO you are saying that my life is controlled by others. I am being forced to life against my own will. So you are saying there no one should respect anyone's right to control their lives fundamental parts.
I can kill myself but starvation, dehydration, taking overdose of my medication, I know ways to kill myself period, I have the tools and means if I want to. Most of them are slow or painful. I live in 9th floor with a rocky hill behind the flat, I could just jump f I want.
But when someone dies from natural causes and they didn't want to die, no one raises an eyebrow, but when someone who wants to die, everyone is there to stop them.

So you are saying forcing someone to live who doesn't want to live - no matter what hes reason for wanting to die is- is a kind act? Isn't it a selfish act to force someone to live just so you do not feel guilty? Making someone suffer because you do not want to suffer. That is a picture of selfishness to me, using others against their will in order to achieve your own happiness, regardless of their feelings.

If I want to die, I should have right for it. Is it right to force people in pain or with long-term degenerating diseases to live? Far as I know, amnesty international consider keeping people in pain against their will as torture. So why isn't the woman who has a brain damage on part of her brain that handles pain, she feel constant pain that can not be stopped with medication or treatments, only treatment would be a form of lobotomy. When I met her, she was in terrible condition, she cant do anything without feeling pain, every breath, blink and move is like a stab to her, she can't eat, speak properly, move without help of others. When I talked to her all she cried about was that she doesn't want to wake up tomorrow, but she can't do anything about it because she can't do anything without aid of a another person. She been like this since a car accident 10 years ago, her body is in otherwise good condition and healthy, but she suffers every second of her life, she can't fall asleep without help of medication. Isn't this torture? She is suffering horrid pain, but people do not let her end it because they do not want to feel guilty.

I took me 2 years to get any help for my condition, two years in which I dipped so slow that I was almost taking a overdose of my pain medication, because the pain didn't stop. I was sent to shrinks and people though I was seeking attention. It took 2 years until I got to meet a neurologist who saw that my muscles are not functioning like they should and took another year for me to get botox treatment, that only eliminated the pain in the muscles, but the horrid nerve pains and pain attacks along that cause panic attacks can not be controlled, there is no drug, surgery or therapy that could be used to control them. I can barely do anything without being afraid that it will start again and ruing life for the next 2 days, I am in constant fear of the pain attacks coming again. I am afraid to go to sleep if I have had a pain free day, I do not want it to end and risk the changes of tomorrow being worse.
I am not going to kill myself because I promised that I wouldn't. But the fact that I can gives me great comfort. The euthanasia clinic in Switzerland has given thousands of people comfort that they can end it if they want to, but only 40% of the people who sign up in there go trough the process. Why? Because the fact that they know that they can end their life, if they want to, gives them courage and strength to face their lives, they know that they can enjoy what is left of their lives and still have to change to die when they see fit if their condition starts to decline.

Forcing someone to live in pain because it makes you feel good is the most selfish thing in my opinion. The kindest thing I could imagine from other people is that they would accept the fact that someone wants to die and support it making them happy feel good about their decision, when they know that they do not need to hurt others because of their decision. I been taught to respect the wishes of the less fortunate and the dying, if they choose to die, by my understanding respecting their wish is the correct thing to do.

 

[GigaHz]

It doesn't matter if a person is a nihilist or not, because the surrounding reality is nihilistic by definition. Don't believe me?

Try convincing your surrounding universe about the importance of being morally correct and see how much it'll listen to you.

I believe that principle is called Karma or philosophically, cause and effect. In my experience, it works more often than not. By choosing not to be an insufferable dick to other people, I find myself surrounded by people who are not insufferable dicks. I've even had the fortune of having complete strangers come to my aid should I find myself in unfavourable circumstances. So for these reasons, I believe that good samaritans exist.

I don't need to convince my surrounding universe on the importance of being morally correct. I'm not naive enough to ignore the greys in life. But, that doesn't mean I choose to adopt a defeatist attitude. If there is a means for which I can influence a certain income one way or another, I will do it. Just because there is messed up garbage in life doesn't mean you have to allow it to happen.

Your scenarios are irrelevant to the facts that people don't stop others from killing themselves for the suicidals' sake, they do it for their own sake. Because they would feel bad about someone elses death. That's all there is to it.

I even played by your rules making the person a sociopath and you still wouldn't bite. Rather than dancing around the question, how about you answer it. What would be the better scenario?

If you honestly believe that 'feeling bad' is the only reason to prevent a suicide, you have a lot to learn about the nature of people. Life is a terrible thing to waste. You don't think a stranger would try and help out a suicidal person if they could? Obviously, it depends on the nature of the person but I am confident that there are people who would. What would they possibly get out of a situation like that? If they were successful, the stranger would probably go about their life normally and the person who aided them would never hear from them again.

What reward is there to be had, or selfish desires to embellish? You could argue that they might feel good after the fact, but what if it depresses them and they worry? Are they still selfish? Besides, why shouldn't someone feel good after talking someone out of killing themselves? Do you not get pleasure after solving a problem?

That perspective is plain and simple fact. There's no arguing or denying it and if you do, you aren't connected to reality.

It's not ME "simplifying" anything, it's the facts that are pretty simple in that regard.

No, it really isn't.

You can brow beat or force feed any mentality to someone but that doesn't mean that it will suddenly become fact. If it were a fact, there wouldn't be exceptions and from my experiences, there are several. You can call it a generalization but not a fact.

It's like saying my desire to breathe is selfish because I require oxygen. No, my desire to breathe is necessary because if I don't, I will die. A selfish act by very definition is defined as "Lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure." The first 4 words dispel your theory.

 

[Thundero13]

No, I can see where he's coming from but often when people commit suicide they aren't really in their right minds if you catch my drift, they're mostly too depressed to think straight

 

[Dr Snakeman]

OT: No. No it isn't. Saving someone's life is kind of the definition of unselfish behavior.

It must be nice living in that simple fantasyworld of yours where everything is so clear-cut and black and white.

It is nice. But for the record, it isn't a "fantasy world": it's the real one. You know, the world where people think like people, and despicable social philosophies like yours only exist (thankfully) in theory. The world where saving a life is considered a good deed- the greatest of deeds- by... well, by pretty much anyone. The world where someone who was prevented from committing suicide would punch you in the face (or chew you out at the very least) if you had the gall to tell them that they are not worthy of their own life. The real goddamned world.

No one in the real world who is worth listening to actually thinks that it's a good thing if a mentally troubled person offs his or her self. The only people who believe that are the antisocial internet misanthropes; the Spock-wannabes who ignore basic human empathy because they fancy themselves to be intellectually superior to those around them. The kind who don't seem to have enough experience interacting with people to know how they actually operate. The kind who wish the world would fit the mold that their twisted societal views have created. People who are... kind of like you.

I'm not the one in the fantasy world, hombre. You are.

 

[Rin Little]

I know I'm harsh for saying this, but I have no respect for people who would commit suicide. I would let a person do it just because I have no respect for them. And for anyone who says "well you don't know what it's like to want to die," yes, I do know, and yet I'm still here. If you aren't willing to fight against those feelings then there's no reason I should convince you not to do it.

So I wouldn't say its selfish, just fruitless to try and stop someone from committing suicide.

 

[Michael Hirst]

It's not selfish to try and convince someone to not give up on life. But then it's naive to think that life is like a Fallout conversation, 2 or 3 carefully selected lines completely reverse a persons intentions and their motivations crumble before them beneath the sea of overwhelming logic you just provided them with.

 

[vesago]

I was refuring to cuteral evoltion more then to phiscal evolition

 

[Woodsey]

It depends heavily on the context and type of suicide.

Refusing to euthanise someone who asks for you too because they are in excessive pain and terminally ill, but who you can't let go of, is selfish (if understandable).

Stopping someone with clinical depression from killing themselves is not.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I know I'm harsh for saying this, but I have no respect for people who would commit suicide. I would let a person do it just because I have no respect for them.

Clearly you respect them in some way. I mean you respect their opinions of wanting to die and that it's their decision to make.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

OT: No. No it isn't. Saving someone's life is kind of the definition of unselfish behavior.

It must be nice living in that simple fantasyworld of yours where everything is so clear-cut and black and white.

It is nice. But for the record, it isn't a "fantasy world": it's the real one. You know, the world where people think like people, and despicable social philosophies like yours only exist (thankfully) in theory. The world where saving a life is considered a good deed- the greatest of deeds- by... well, by pretty much anyone. The world where someone who was prevented from committing suicide would punch you in the face (or chew you out at the very least) if you had the gall to tell them that they are not worthy of their own life. The real goddamned world.

No one in the real world who is worth listening to actually thinks that it's a good thing if a mentally troubled person offs his or her self. The only people who believe that are the antisocial internet misanthropes; the Spock-wannabes who ignore basic human empathy because they fancy themselves to be intellectually superior to those around them. The kind who don't seem to have enough experience interacting with people to know how they actually operate. The kind who wish the world would fit the mold that their twisted societal views have created. People who are... kind of like you.

I'm not the one in the fantasy world, hombre. You are.

You done masturbating your delusional sense of Self-aggrandisement already?

Im not an internet misantrope, im a genuine misanthrope pretty much everywhere. But despite being a misanthrope at least I have some basic respect for others people's choices, and the wisdom to know that people genuinely wanting to die are not worth wasting any time and effort on.

And if someone who got "prevented" from commiting suicide would chew me out because if it, I'd tell them straight to their attentionseeking, fucking face that they were never serious about their plans of suicide to begin with. Because had they been serious, they would be dead by now and not sit there and whine because im making honest, to-the-point statements about them.

Oh and by the way, you have no clue as to what my experiences with social interactions entails so you're not really in any reasonable position to comment on it. And as I've previously stated, I've actually flipped some of these so called "suicidal" people off before and pretty much told them that they should go ahead and kill themselves if they want it so badly instead of whining about it all the time. I even offered my help killing them. In one instance, one of these people was even family.'

And you know what? IT GOT THROUGH to most of them. We're talking about people who'd been depressed for months and their family and friends had tried to "support" them and talk them out of "silly ideas of suicide" which didn't help them out from that swamp of self-pity and attentionseeking at all. But as soon as the encountered me and my unflinching and uncompromising reaction, they did a complete 180 and most of them have never gone back to that kind of pathetic existence again. In confronting me they got to REALLY confront the prospect of suicide because I was being so "cruel" to actually dare them to just do it already. And these people had done the classic suicide "attempts" before as well which they got "saved" by someone from.

How does all that fit into your neat little fantasy world?

One thing's clear though. You don't know anything of the real world. If you did, you wouldn't be so ridiculously narrow minded and morally absolutistic that you are...

 

[Sam Warrior]

My view on suicide: its fine but don't involve anyone else, i.e don't jump in front of a train or a bus. Also make sure you do it right first time so you don't end up in hospital wasting valuable resources because your too stupid to get even ending your life right. I don't agree with suicide but if someone genuinely didn't want to live any more then I wouldn't feel it within my rights to stop them.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I believe that principle is called Karma or philosophically, cause and effect. In my experience, it works more often than not. By choosing not to be an insufferable dick to other people, I find myself surrounded by people who are not insufferable dicks. I've even had the fortune of having complete strangers come to my aid should I find myself in unfavourable circumstances. So for these reasons, I believe that good samaritans exist.

Yeah, that's why insufferable dick's like Gordon Ramsay (random example) are so successful, rich and still have friends and loved ones. There's your so called "karma" in action right there.

I don't need to convince my surrounding universe on the importance of being morally correct. I'm not naive enough to ignore the greys in life. But, that doesn't mean I choose to adopt a defeatist attitude. If there is a means for which I can influence a certain income one way or another, I will do it. Just because there is messed up garbage in life doesn't mean you have to allow it to happen.

It's not about adopting a "defeatist" attitude, it's called being pragmatic. Something you clearly do not understand the meaning of since you're too busy filling your head with idealistic delusions.

I even played by your rules making the person a sociopath and you still wouldn't bite. Rather than dancing around the question, how about you answer it. What would be the better scenario?

Do you even know what a sociopath is and that sociopathy as an "illness" has lost pretty much all scientific and academic value and credibility due to the fact that it's been empirically discovered that it was an arbitrary label to use for a set of different behaviours?

If you honestly believe that 'feeling bad' is the only reason to prevent a suicide, you have a lot to learn about the nature of people.

No I really don't have anymore to learn about people. I know all there is to know already.

If anything, it's you who need to stop being so naive and childishly idealistic if you want to come across as experienced and wise. Most of the arguments you try to make sound like something out of a Disney-cartoon completely out of phase with reality.

Life is a terrible thing to waste.

No, life is cheap. All the wars, murders, abortions and suicides occured throughout human history should've taught you that.

You don't think a stranger would try and help out a suicidal person if they could? Obviously, it depends on the nature of the person but I am confident that there are people who would. What would they possibly get out of a situation like that? If they were successful, the stranger would probably go about their life normally and the person who aided them would never hear from them again.

Easy, they would get that warm, fuzzy feeling of self-satisfaction and being able to walk around feeling like some kind of "hero". And that's really the only motivation that would matter for someone trying to "save" a suicidal person. No one really cares about the lives and deaths of total strangers. If they really did, you wouldn't have millions of innocent children worldwide starving to death daily. But they do.

And they do that because most of the time, they are simply "too far away" for these self-righteous pricks who walk around trying to "save" everyone from themselves to be able to relate to them. Their short-sighted nature and need to fulfill their aesthetic cravings of "feeling good about themselves" can only perceive what's right in front of them. But it doesn't mean that they actually care.

What reward is there to be had, or selfish desires to embellish? You could argue that they might feel good after the fact, but what if it depresses them and they worry? Are they still selfish? Besides, why shouldn't someone feel good after talking someone out of killing themselves? Do you not get pleasure after solving a problem?

Yeah I experience pleasure after solving a problem, but I admit to being selfish, since selfishness is integral to the human condition.

The reason I know that is because I have a knack for figuring out my own and other's true motivations for doing something. Even at times when I've done things for others that felt completely unselfish and self-sacrificing at the time to me, it didn't take me long to calculate the real motivations I had behind it and how selfish they actually were.

No, it really isn't.

You can brow beat or force feed any mentality to someone but that doesn't mean that it will suddenly become fact. If it were a fact, there wouldn't be exceptions and from my experiences, there are several. You can call it a generalization but not a fact.

Then by all means, bring up all these so called "exceptions" and I'l completely ruin them for you by calculating the exact motivations that were in play and how selfish they were.

A selfish act by very definition is defined as "Lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure." The first 4 words dispel your theory.

Erm, no. Selfishness has a bit broader definition than that.

But when it comes to what you call "saving" suicidal people from themselves, how is that NOT inconsiderate? I mean you're basically taking away their right to freedom of choice over their own life just because you SUSPECT that they MIGHT regret it later. In other words you don't really give a shit about their current condition, thoughts and feelings at all, you just steamroll across all of that because you believe that their hypothetical "future selves" would be grateful for it.

That is the very definition of being an inconsiderate dick.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

My view on suicide: its fine but don't involve anyone else, i.e don't jump in front of a train or a bus.

I'd like to add that you shouldn't slit your wrists open anywhere near carpeting. Be a little considerat towards the people who have to clean up after your remains and slice yourself open in the bathtub or somewhere where it's easy to clean all the corpsejuices and blood off.

 

[Agayek]

I don't think it's selfish, per se, to want to stop someone from committing suicide.

That said, I do think it's immoral to take that choice away from them. Present your arguments, do whatever you want to try to talk them out of it, but don't actually, physically stop them when they make their choice.

We, as sentient beings, are defined by our ability to choose. If you take that away from someone, you are robbing them of their humanity. By all means, argue against their decision, but never prevent them from making it*.


*With the caveat that said choice won't result in harm being done to an innocent. That is never acceptable.

 

[Chasing-The-Light]

I think it's kind of selfish... but really, what I came to say here, is that I think this video is a perfect response to the issue here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUISUncv2yM