Vault101 said:
I think they can...depending on where you set the bar...Games might not compare to what we consider "high brow" but I think they hold their weight with the middle of the road stuff...not all of them, but the odd one.
Well, I mean, I compared them to dime novels and C movies for a reason. And I think that's the best of what gaming has to offer. I think it can offer better, but what we see hailed as masterpieces are usually quite bad, still.
That's not to say I want gaming to be like movies. I mean, I enjoy a cinematic game now and again, but that's not my goal or my desire. The point here was more the comparison of Ellie to any character in any medium. When that comparison comes up, I feel it fair to make the critique, but I'm not looking for novels or movies. I'd also point out that I don't necessarily go for highbrow stuff. I'm playing Warriors Orochi 3 right now and loving it. Not the stuff of legend by far, but it doesn't have to be.
Thing is, characters tend to be weak because of the media itself. Look at protagonist lists: the top spots tend to go to people who are nearly blank slates, like Gordon Freeman and Link. This isn't automatically a flaw, either, but it can be. The silent protagonist can be fun, but s/he doesn't necessarily lend to character development.
Ellie is perhaps one of the best written characters in any medium ever, regardless of gender.
That's what I was riffing off of.
Not The Bees said:
Honestly, I don't really like to be labelled anything. Well, I do like being labelled as a pacifist and nice. But really, I don't always agree with any one group. When I was in America, I couldn't really always call myself a democrat because I didn't always agree with everything they did, and I can't really call myself a Christian, because sometimes the dogma and I just don't get along.
Yet when I'm forced into a box (not that you were doing of course, just lately... oh god lately I usually know what box I would fit more into than other. Would I fit more into feminism or egalitarian? Probably closer to egalitarians. Do I subscribe to any one? No. And do I say I am one? No. I'm just me. Stacy... I mean... Bees...of the Not variety.
It just read as though you were inherently trying to distance yourself from the concept, something I see pretty commonly. I may have even been influenced by havng recently watched Log1c Bombed's video on Thunderf00t, since he basically said "it's because of you I can't call myself a feminist." A sentiment I find baffling and a little inane. Point being I may have read more than what was there, and for that I apologise. As to where I'm coming from....
I dislike backing down from things just because someone slings a name at me. It's worse when it's a word I don't have a problem with. I don't go out of my way to label myself, but when people started calling me a feminist, my response was basically, "screw it. Why not?" I'm not going to back down from any argument because I'm called a feminist. Or a liberal (I'm not a Democrat, not even technically). People want to use these words as slurs to shut down conversation. That's sort of where this thread comes in in the first place. It's us and them, in this case "gamers" and "feminists."
Actually, it's not just domestic abuse for men who get hurt by women, but men who are hurt by other men as well. ;-) Though I can say, women can be just as abusive as men, I have severe PTSD (evidently so severe that I'm level... something here in the UK), because my mother was quite violent. Sometimes men can be embarrassed to go to shelters or seek help, so we tried to offer special counselling so that they could also leave an abusive situation just like a woman could. It was always kind of sad that people doctored so many studies, because it would end up hurting those who did end up needing help. And then they would not go and get it... anyway, anyone that is suffering from domestic violence should go get help, but we managed to get several counsellors together that focused on domestic abuse towards men.
My point was more that the awareness that comes from these are usually based on loaded studies with false equivalence. The big rape comparison done in the US is done between statistics of penetrative rape for women vs any kind of sexual abuse for adult men, for example, and then people go around talking about how much worse off it is for men. And that's dishonest. That's like saying women are raped more because rape requires the victim's vagina to be penetrated. If one sufficiently loads the conditions, one can demonstrate anything. See also: claims that scientists once met consensus that the earth was going through global cooling. Or any of a thousand other examples, that just sprung to mind.
Sometimes it's as simple as how management is run.
Thing is, there's no management as far as I'm aware. I joke about our glorious overlady, but there isn't even a single set of ideals. A week or so back, I spent a ton of time defending the notion of porn against someone who was insisting to women they were being degraded and dehumanised regardless of how they felt on the subject. And I know a lot of feminists feel different.
For me, I think handling the poverty first, getting that taken care of, and getting a baseline set with minimum wage, and so on... it's just a differing of ideologies.
There's never a good sentence that starts with "no offense," but...I'm not sure how to phrase this. It just seems weird that you mention issues of bodily autonomy, and you place this as a higher concern. I mean, I'm not dictating what you can or cannot feel, but I do have trouble wrapping my head around it.
And I've had some very... I don't want to say angry, but I just did, fights with them about this.
That's true of any group, whether labeled or not. My family are right wing Christians who swear their not right wing Christians, and they get very angry at me. Hell, I was called a Nazi before I'd even been on the internet or heard of Godwin's law, because I supported socialised medicine back before it was cool *hipster shades* I should note that only really goes for the US, since I'm aware practically every other industrial nation has had it, many since before I was born. Still, I'm pretty much only even a liberal by US standards. But to them, I'm left of Lenin, the kind of scum who is off eating babies and forcing straights to gay marry. Or something. I don't know. I tune them out mostly.
I don't carry that with me and hold it against all Christians or conservatives.
I'm not sure that we're disagreeing Zachary.
What confuses me is the original diction
The point is, it doesn't have to be just women.
I was pretty sure we were on the same page, except that confuses me. I don't think anyone's saying it's got to be women.
I agree with what you're saying. I've always kind of hoped for better diversity in gaming, but if I bring that up, they point to random "diversity" as everything is done and good. Same thing with women in gaming. If I say that I'd like to play as a character that isn't just nuts (as Lara Croft may be), well they cry out that I'm just whining to cause a problem.
There's been many times where I've decried the idea of labelling "SJWs" because that gets us nowhere, and the idea that "feminists" are taking over the gaming industry, because if they're speaking out, it's just because they'd like to play as someone they can identify with. And the last time I checked I had a [small]vagina *gasp*[/small]. On a good day, labels get us no where, and on a bad day they get us to this effing mess we're in now. Every time I try to get on twitter, or I just try to have a normal conversation, I'm asked what side am I on. Am I pro-gamer, or am I pro this, or pro that.
It's not even what we identify with, mind. I'm in favour of more people of colour, though I'm fair skinned. And this is part of where the "SJW" tag comes in. I get accused of championing causes that aren't mine, but honestly, I went through Saints Row as a Hispanic dude. Hell, when SR2 added in female models, I kept him for multiplayer and made a separate, female avatar for single player--a tradition I kept for the remainder of the series so far. I like flexibility in my games, and also, I empthaise with the people who do say "why can't I play as someone who looks like me?" It's not an unreasonable demand, so I'm onboard, even if I never particularly sat down and said "gaming needs more blackl/brown" people!
Though I'm half native, and would appreciate (not demand, mind) the occasional option when we're dealing with skin presets. The closest I can get is the hispanic/latino preset. It's not someone who looks like me, but it'd still be cool.
I'm just trying to make a game and finish my book. I didn't know I had to chose a side, and I definitely didn't know that as of right that moment I suddenly had to box myself into something I never had put myself in before. Sure, I have similiar ideas that feminists have, but I also think some Republicans had some good ideas. What does that say about me? I didn't think John McCain was that bad of a guy before he lost his mind in 2008.
Just for the record, I voted for McCain prior to 2008. Primaries, but still.
Good luck on finishing your stuff, though. I've finished two novels and I just need to get organised enough to get them published. I won't pretend I'm an awesome writer, because I'm just writing dime novel fiction (more proof to the above that I don't have anything against things I liken to dime novels).
On that note, and in the line of this sort of discussion, one of the reasons I find these critiques interesting is they actually do make me think about what I'm doing. Not just feminism, either. I read TV Tropes sometimes, just to broaden my horizons. The end result isn't always change, but I've sometimes found myself falling into holes without realising it. And I think you can accept criticism and still make something you want to make. Which is more about the metanarrative that's been going on around here, but still. I mean, if the Saints Row devs can think about this sort of thing and still come up with Saints Row IV, I think we're pretty safe.
Hell, I want to know everything about you Zachary, mostly because you interest me.
Oh you say that, but I know your type. You just want to copy my identity and commit crimes. NEVER AGAIN!
(I kid, of course)
ANYWAY! I'm not angry, if this rant came off as that.
No worries. I didn't read it as angry. More "passionate," I guess. I only really tend to be bothered when I think someone is arguing in bad faith or something similar. Even if I disagree, I have trouble holding it against someone I think is being genuine. Of course, I will still disagree, but this is the internet, so it's expected--nay, demanded!
