Is rap music detrimental to society?

[Reaperman Wompa]

what music are you listening to which comes with some amazing message, arcticflame?

 

[The Iron Ninja]

(words from one of those "Hipity-hopity" songs the kids are always on about)

Before I say anything else I should say that this is all opinion, and I don't expect to change your mind about anything.
But that doesn't really strike me as good lyrical...ness (irony implied), of course when you look at the lyrics for any type of music it's going to look pretty lame, alot of a good song is all about the delivery, and as I said before I don't think Rap (or that "hipity-hopity" thing) is the best way to do so.

That said I do think there are some pretty awesome lyrics in Pink Floyd and the like:

"It was just before dawn
One miserable morning in black 'forty four.
When the forward commander
Was told to sit tight
When he asked that his men be withdrawn.
And the Generals gave thanks
As the other ranks held back
The enemy tanks for a while.
And the Anzio bridgehead
Was held for the price
Of a few hundred ordinary lives.

And kind old King George
Sent Mother a note
When he heard that father was gone.
It was, I recall,
In the form of a scroll,
With gold leaf and all.
And I found it one day
In a drawer of old photographs, hidden away.
And my eyes still grow damp to remember
His Majesty signed
With his own rubber stamp.

It was dark all around.
There was frost in the ground
When the tigers broke free.
And no one survived
From the Royal Fusiliers Company C.
They were all left behind,
Most of them dead,
The rest of them dying.
And that's how the High Command
Took my daddy from me."

Well I think its good. Psst, it's about how Roger Waters, the singer, lost his father in the battle of Anzio (In Italy) during WW2

 

[Arcticflame]

He tells us what is happening. That is not good imagery.

Wow, he just told me that girl is a prostitute, that sure makes things sad.
He just told me how bad it is for babies to be gotten rid off, I sure have learnt a lot.

It doesn't explore complex themes, or tell you anything which would really rock your world, while it certainly preaches a good ideal, it only does it in a way that at best can be described as heavy handed.

I mean really, story telling 101, you describe the scene in ways which don't tell the audience what is happening directly, doing so forces your reader to think for themselves.

Prostitute? It was NEVER mentioned she was a prostitute until the end. She was being molested by her older relative, and became one. Did you even read it, bro?

I mean, he's telling a story, yes, but now you're just being nick-pickey about it to the max. There are rock artists who use blunter language than that. Just because he isn't using metaphors doesn't make him any less a story teller, just a different kind.

I was using an example from the end, of the rap. I don't see what you are trying to say there. I was saying that it is not a fantastic technique to simply state what is happening, which is what he does throughout the rap.

I'm not being at all nit picky, there is no sentence in that thing which is put together in a way which rivals any decent english student, (and I hate english). His story telling is not special, if someone told you that story, you wouldn't complement his ability to tell you amazing stories.

I already said, rock artists don't need great lyrics, rap musicians do, the onus of good rap or bad rap is entirely on their word use, and the vast majority of "rap artists" are not good at all, and that song is another example of a bad one.

Good lyrics? Well, I don't look for lyrics in my music, I love good instrumentals to be honest.
But Khe sanh by cold chisel, that would have to be up there in terms of lyrics.

I don't mind 77% by the herd, but that is more the fact they are bagging out someone I really don't like.

 

[Arcticflame]

He tells us what is happening. That is not good imagery.



It doesn't explore complex themes, or tell you anything which would really rock your world, while it certainly preaches a good ideal, it only does it in a way that at best can be described as heavy handed.

I mean really, story telling 101, you describe the scene in ways which don't tell the audience what is happening directly, doing so forces your reader to think for themselves.

It's not the focus of the story (the girl being a prostitute), it was a common occurence within his area, girls being led down hard paths by hard lives and bad people around her. She's a metaphor as a whole for young women in the California ghetto as a whole. She's an example of one story, with several bad things within her life. And its just telling the fate of the urban black female in America, not all of them literally exactly like Brenda, but an example of the fates that can become women there at the time.

I mean, he's telling a story, yes, but now you're just being nick-pickey about it to the max. There are rock artists who use blunter language than that. Just because he isn't using metaphors doesn't make him any less a story teller, just a different kind.

She is not a metaphor, she is an example. It does make him less of a story teller, as he isn't provoking deep thought on the issue, he is stating the issue. It's the same as me walking up to you and saying, "Isn't it terrible what is happening to Lots of <insert minority group, poverty stricken people, or otherwise in trouble members of an area here> are ." It achieves the same effect of raising the issue and like that rap, gives no potent message.

You look at good lyrics, and they motivate you, lyrics like that rap simply state the issue.

 

[Ares Tyr]

He tells us what is happening. That is not good imagery.

Wow, he just told me that girl is a prostitute, that sure makes things sad.
He just told me how bad it is for babies to be gotten rid off, I sure have learnt a lot.

It doesn't explore complex themes, or tell you anything which would really rock your world, while it certainly preaches a good ideal, it only does it in a way that at best can be described as heavy handed.

I mean really, story telling 101, you describe the scene in ways which don't tell the audience what is happening directly, doing so forces your reader to think for themselves.

Prostitute? It was NEVER mentioned she was a prostitute until the end. She was being molested by her older relative, and became one. Did you even read it, bro?

I mean, he's telling a story, yes, but now you're just being nick-pickey about it to the max. There are rock artists who use blunter language than that. Just because he isn't using metaphors doesn't make him any less a story teller, just a different kind.

I was using an example from the end, of the rap. I don't see what you are trying to say there. I was saying that it is not a fantastic technique to simply state what is happening, which is what he does throughout the rap.

I'm not being at all nit picky, there is no sentence in that thing which is put together in a way which rivals any decent english student, (and I hate english). His story telling is not special, if someone told you that story, you wouldn't complement his ability to tell you amazing stories.

I already said, rock artists don't need great lyrics, rap musicians do, the onus of good rap or bad rap is entirely on their word use, and the vast majority of "rap artists" are not good at all, and that song is another example of a bad one.

Good lyrics? Well, I don't look for lyrics in my music, I love good instrumentals to be honest.
But Khe sanh by cold chisel, that would have to be up there in terms of lyrics.

I don't mind 77% by the herd, but that is more the fact they are bagging out someone I really don't like.

It's all cool that Hip Hop isn't your cup of tea, bro. I mean, I don't like very much Country music, but I don't go around saying they are a bunch of untalented morons, because I'll admit it takes some talent (and I am a fan of Johnny Cash's music).

I'm not saying "LOVE RAP MUSIC, IT'S THE BEST!" just don't trash it like you are.

And actually Hip Hop has instrumental music. Invisibl Skratch Piklz, RATATAT, The X-Ecutioners. DJs, they don't do the whole "stagnant beat" thing that most Hip Hop is formed around. They do beat juggling, scratching, transitions, etc. They use pre-existing music, combine it and alter it to create new music. And it's amazing. The three I mentioned are some of the best examples.

 

[Korolev]

Rap is a form of music - by itself it cannot hurt anyone or anything.

Rap used to be good, used to mean something. Even if you didn't agree with the political messages in rap music, at least they were THERE. Rap was, and still can be, a great musical format with good social messages.

Unfortunately, the folks at Universal Music, etc, decided that rap would be more profitable if rap got "dumbed down". Political rap was reaching an audience, but it wasn't profitable enough. So in an effort to reach as many consumers as possible, the music industry resorted to appealing to the lowest common denominator - hookers, sex, drugs and crass materialism for the sake of materialism. Rap used to be about expressing social issues in a creative way - but now its about drug dealers live in mega-mansions sleeping with hundreds of brain dead women (who do nothing but "dance" (i.e jump up and down wearing provocative clothing) and show as little intelligence as possible).

I still hold out hope that rap can reform itself - but only when people like "50 cent" are gone. The saddest thing is how little it relates to ordinary black people - rap used to be about them, now its about a crass egotistical thug screaming from a mansion that he owns better stuff than you do. Rap used to be about expressing community solidarity and displaying the dreams and hopes of the black community - now, it's about "being a gangsta", being a thug - it's saying "this is who you are" and trying to cram it down the throats of African-Americans. And that's really sad.

Rap has become degenerated into a huge commercial vehicle - designed to promote sheer excess, laziness, consumerism, etc. It teaches some of the poorest people that they really need to go out and by a pair of 300 dollar sneakers just because some rapper is wearing them. It treats women like they're just objects, possessions who are to be valued for only their physical appearance, instead of their mind, their emotions, their thoughts.

Present day rap is bad. But it can change.

Then again, I don't believe that rap will be the end of civilization. Yes, modern rap promotes some "questionable" social values, but we've been down this road before - in the 50's/60's, everyone was convinced that rock was to be the downfall of morality. In the 80's and 90's, parents were again spooked that heavy metal would result in a new generation of devil-worshipers. And yet both rock and heavy metal have not resulted in the downfall of the world. I don't believe rap is going to destroy the fabric of society.

 

[The Iron Ninja]

Uh, any thoughts on my post at all? Mr Ares Tyr? Is there anybody out there?

 

[Ares Tyr]

He tells us what is happening. That is not good imagery.



It doesn't explore complex themes, or tell you anything which would really rock your world, while it certainly preaches a good ideal, it only does it in a way that at best can be described as heavy handed.

I mean really, story telling 101, you describe the scene in ways which don't tell the audience what is happening directly, doing so forces your reader to think for themselves.

It's not the focus of the story (the girl being a prostitute), it was a common occurence within his area, girls being led down hard paths by hard lives and bad people around her. She's a metaphor as a whole for young women in the California ghetto as a whole. She's an example of one story, with several bad things within her life. And its just telling the fate of the urban black female in America, not all of them literally exactly like Brenda, but an example of the fates that can become women there at the time.

I mean, he's telling a story, yes, but now you're just being nick-pickey about it to the max. There are rock artists who use blunter language than that. Just because he isn't using metaphors doesn't make him any less a story teller, just a different kind.

She is not a metaphor, she is an example. It does make him less of a story teller, as he isn't provoking deep thought on the issue, he is stating the issue. It's the same as me walking up to you and saying, "Isn't it terrible what is happening to Lots of <insert minority group, poverty stricken people, or otherwise in trouble members of an area here> are ." It achieves the same effect of raising the issue and like that rap, gives no potent message.

You look at good lyrics, and they motivate you, lyrics like that rap simply state the issue.

Tupac himself said that Brenda was a metaphor for all women in that position. You can have an example be a metaphor. "That guy runs fast like [insert fast person here]". That's a metaphor for how fast that person is, an example of another fast person. While a metaphor has to be "seemingly unlike" something I know, still, she is an extreme example of extreme poverty. But there are people out there who live pretty bad, maybe not that bad, but still.

If I'm listening to The Black Dahlia Murder and song like "Warborn" is on, its using obscure metaphors about a child born on a battlefield to say how bad war is. Of course a child born on a battlefield is a sad and bad thing and war is to blame. Its along the same lines, just slightly more direct.

In Tupac's song, "Changes", he uses his words to motivate and raise awareness on the issues concerning thoughs who lived like he did in his life, and if you like I could show you the lyrics, but I don't think anyone is in the mood for another list of lyrics, particularly for a four minute song. It's all metaphor, word play, etc. But its sending a message that is motivating. So what would you consider that?

 

[Ares Tyr]

Uh, any thoughts on my post at all? Mr Ares Tyr? Is there anybody out there?

I'm not particularly familiar with Pink Floyd music, but the song does remind me of "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden. And you are right, it does lie in the delivery and the backing music. Brenda has a really touching beat behind it and the delivery is very morbid. So, yeah, the visualisation is much better when listening to it.

But God... its late. I think I'm done with this conversation for now.

 

[sirdanrhodes]

Rap is not too blame, but it is sh*t.

GO METAL!!!

 

[The Iron Ninja]

I'm not particularly familiar with Pink Floyd music, but the song does remind me of "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden. And you are right, it does lie in the delivery and the backing music. Brenda has a really touching beat behind it and the delivery is very morbid. So, yeah, the visualisation is much better when listening to it.

Yeah I noticed just going over it again that even that song, which to me seems very well written when heard, doesn't look that impressive on paper in comparison to how it sounds, I guess I could find a link for a youtube video for it i'll put it in an edit

Edit: here it is, from the Wall movie, Didn't watch it to make sure it was the exact thing so hopefully its not one of those things where a scary face comes out screaming (So turn the volume up to hear the music well, he he he...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYtGsvoBVw8

 

[Arcticflame]

It's all cool that Hip Hop isn't your cup of tea, bro. I mean, I don't like very much Country music, but I don't go around saying they are a bunch of untalented morons, because I'll admit it takes some talent (and I am a fan of Johnny Cash's music).

I'm not saying "LOVE RAP MUSIC, IT'S THE BEST!" just don't trash it like you are.

And actually Hip Hop has instrumental music. Invisibl Skratch Piklz, RATATAT, The X-Ecutioners. DJs, they don't do the whole "stagnant beat" thing that most Hip Hop is formed around. They do beat juggling, scratching, transitions, etc. They use pre-existing music, combine it and alter it to create new music. And it's amazing. The three I mentioned are some of the best examples.

Actually, I haven't trashed it, if you read my posts properly I said that the rap YOU showed was crap. I am saying rap can be good with good lyrics. I mentioned the herd. And that's beside the point anyway, it's not the music I mentioned, it's the lyrics.
Cold Chisel are not country. They are rock. And why does it matter what genre they are anyway? Lyrics are lyrics. I was using the lyrics as an example of what good lyrics are, take them out of the context of the music, and they stand out as a poem.

Take tupacs music out, and its utter shite.

You haven't responded to the fact that tupac's music is no different than being talked at, how is that good to listen to? If you enjoy a simple beat with talking, go ahead and admit it, but if it's the clever word play you are listening to, you are effectively reading a picture book and saying it's genius.

You haven't argued against my points properly.

I KNOW hip-hop can have instrumentals to it, that is why I said up there Rap music can be good If it has good music with it. Because the emphasis is not the rap itself, but the music! The rap is just an aspect of the music which adds to it as it provides a steady rhythm a listener can "tune in" to.

Edit - And now I must log off, Will respond later in the night, or maybe tomorrow if it comes to it.

 

[Copter400]

Rap isn't detrimental to society. I have discovered, however, that without balancing mainstream music with fine art and good reading, it is detrimental to the human mind.

Therefore, I intend to have a virus created that will kill everyone below a certain I.Q. They'll go purple and explode like a party popper. It'll be grrreat.

So, in its own way, rap is good for society.

 

[Ares Tyr]

It's all cool that Hip Hop isn't your cup of tea, bro. I mean, I don't like very much Country music, but I don't go around saying they are a bunch of untalented morons, because I'll admit it takes some talent (and I am a fan of Johnny Cash's music).

I'm not saying "LOVE RAP MUSIC, IT'S THE BEST!" just don't trash it like you are.

And actually Hip Hop has instrumental music. Invisibl Skratch Piklz, RATATAT, The X-Ecutioners. DJs, they don't do the whole "stagnant beat" thing that most Hip Hop is formed around. They do beat juggling, scratching, transitions, etc. They use pre-existing music, combine it and alter it to create new music. And it's amazing. The three I mentioned are some of the best examples.

Actually, I haven't trashed it, if you read my posts properly I said that the rap YOU showed was crap. I am saying rap can be good with good lyrics. I mentioned the herd. And that's beside the point anyway, it's not the music I mentioned, it's the lyrics.
Cold Chisel are not country. They are rock. And why does it matter what genre they are anyway? Lyrics are lyrics. I was using the lyrics as an example of what good lyrics are, take them out of the context of the music, and they stand out as a poem.

Take tupacs music out, and its utter shite.

You haven't responded to the fact that tupac's music is no different than being talked at, how is that good to listen to? If you enjoy a simple beat with talking, go ahead and admit it, but if it's the clever word play you are listening to, you are effectively reading a picture book and saying it's genius.

You haven't argued against my points properly.

I KNOW hip-hop has instrumentals to it, that is why I said up there Rap music can be good If it has good music with it. Because the emphasis is not the rap itself, but the music! The rap is just an aspect of the music which adds to it as it provides a steady rhythm a listener can "tune in" to.

I never was never saying that the band you mentioned was a country band, I was just giving an example of something I dislike, but I don't trash because I can still respect it. It came off to me as if you were trashing the music.

One thing I am very tired of hearing is people saying that "Rap is just talking" because it is certainly not. I've freestyled a capella and it definetly does not sound like I'm talking when I'm keeping a steady rhthmn and cadence with my speech and rhyming the whole way, putting different inflections on my voice, purposely using different emotional variations of such. Yes, there may not be a melody, but music does not have to be melodic, drums being a perfect example.

To me, Hip Hop vocals are "the drums" or "tamborine" as a singer is a "guitar" or "violin". The lyrical styles, to are going to be different, unless you are like Zach De La Rocha who is rapping.

If you don't like the examples I gave, then I guess I'll have to take that as it was said and not what I thought you were implying. But I gave the best examples I knew of and I feel as though I have a rather descent taste in music. But when you make statements like "Rappers are just talking when it comes down to it" I can only assume you are, to me, being insulting towards the genre. The inflections on voice, be it humorous or morbid, are different. Sure, maybe rap is just a fancy way of saying "telling a story, not singing" but it is definetly a different form of verbalization than just talking. I mean, if you can't tell the difference from a person talking and a person rapping, keeping tempo, rythmn, etc, using different and varied ranges of emotion, then I don't know what to tell you other than "Do you know what rythmn is?".

 

[Iron Mal]

I should start by saying that I haven't heard much rap in the past (and the small amount that I have heard I can't really remember), but I have read a fair amount of what everyone has written here.

In my opinion, music is supposed to be a pass time, relaxation. Even when bands like Iron Maiden made songs about historical issues, they were more in rememberence of the events than a way of spreading word. I begin to dislike certain forms of music when it gets too 'preachy' and starts trying to send us messages about current events, world wide issues, politics and the environment (don't get me started on the environment).

In recent times it would seem that artists have begun to view themselves as being prophets of our time, feeling that they have to tell the story of what a bad world we come from (because we can't see that ourselves you see). This is in quite a few genres, not just rap (so I am in fact also ripping into REM...they asked for it by making a song with the phrase 'shiney happy people').

 

[wordsmith]

I actually had this self same argument with a friend about 3 days ago. I told her I was into rap, and I got the traditional "YOU? into RAP?!?" *disbelieving look*. I live on an island that is populated by teenyboppers, Metalheads and Emo's in equal proportions. I'm one of about 3 people whom I know who actually listens to rap, and I have done for about 10 years now.

When people (well, here anyway. Not sure about other places) hear the word "rap", they think about 50 Cent, they think about Soulja Boi, they think about The Game*. Why? Because these are the gutter trash retards who dumbed themselves down far enough to sell records to people who wouldn't usually buy them.

In the words of scrumpilous P; "the four elements never were, and never will be Guns, Ganja, Bitches and Bling". The thread seems to be filling with people that automatically assume that that is all that rap is. Take a look at Lupe Fiasco. Take a look at Hilltop Hoods. Take a look at Kanye West. In fact, take a look at most rap that was around BEFORE the East-Coast/West-Coast feuds that took the lives of two of the most talented rappers to ever pick up a mic. Rap is starting to turn a corner here, no longer is Rap and Gangsta Rap synonomous. Conscious Rap and rappers who are in the game for the wordplay (NOT THE FAME AND THE MONEY) are what we need to help raise the genre...

Oh, and in responce to whoever it was saying "all rap is crap". Kinda like me playing Big Rigs and saying "I'm never going to play another game again- they're all bugged beyond all recognition"

[/rant]

 

[Serious_Stalin]

Metal music is bad for society as well often, I mean I went to go see slayer and I saw errr 4 people with "MADE IN ENGLAND" Tattooed on them somewhere, white supremacy and Metal seem to mix, I don't think that is the direct cause of metal music and I think its gotta be the same for Rap.

Theres a lot of good rap,Cypress Hill, Wu Tang, Non-Phxion, Jedi Mind Tricks, Busdriver, Kanye West, to name a few. Unfortunately the most well advertised rap music glorifies blowing somebodies head off for no good reason (Well 50 Cent at least, mind you I listen to Necro so..).

 

[Doug]

Personnally, I'm not into rap. I don't like it, or the horrible sound it makes.

But the question is "Is it hurting society?" - Answer: Probably not.

The idiots who ride around in their cars with super-high base that vibates my car 50 foot way are and should be culled to try and stop it spreading in the genepool. In general, poverty, basic manners, and decaying parenting have infinitely more effect on society than media. Ok, kids do get affected by it in the sense that they might try and copy the rappers in the same way that you can find videos of a kid on YouTube who made cardboard copies of the weapons in Halo.

 

[zachbob2]

Yes