Is religion rational?

[Last of the Chinchillas]

I'm always curious as to just how familiar with various religions and religious writings people are in threads like this.

It's quite rational depending on how you look at it. Considering that our planet is the only one that we know of capable of supporting life, that it's at the perfect spot for such a thing, had just the right chemical mix, and that intelligent life spontaneously developed here, is it more rational to believe that we were just that lucky or that there was some creative force behind the thing?

 

[Kubanator]

Yeah i cant say i really know anything about that, i just like to keep and open mind to new theories and to be a huge skeptic towards anything becoming a fact. But ill take your word for this one.

When I said one example, I meant an example of a theory met with ridicule. The Big Bang theory was scoffed at by Einstein until Hubble supported it.

I'm always curious as to just how familiar with various religions and religious writings people are in threads like this.

It's quite rational depending on how you look at it. Considering that our planet is the only one that we know of capable of supporting life, that it's at the perfect spot for such a thing, had just the right chemical mix, and that intelligent life spontaneously developed here, is it more rational to believe that we were just that lucky or that there was some creative force behind the thing?

Only a planet capable of supporting life would be able to ask the question, how is this possible. After all, there's been an infinite amount of time before us.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

Just to clarify: Nobody during the age of Colombus EVER seriously thought the world was flat. This one greek guy proved it wasn't, but even BEFORE that people suspected it was round but couldn't prove it.

I would like to find the moron who spread that fallacious rumor about everyone thinking the world was flat and stomp all over his grave.

 

[Dorian6]

If it were based in science it would be rational. It was rational, but now we have the truth. However, people still cling to their bibles like Republicans cling to their nukes.

It would only become irrational if everybody on this planet knew the full truth. Then it's just going against what's proven to be true. Right now there are insufficient scientific arguments to completely disprove all religions.

Also

Christianity: the belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

What's irrational about that?

I can turn that around though.

Science: the belief that at first, absolutely nothing existed, after which nothing exploded which by chance happened to create millions of galaxies filled with millions of stars on which in turn millions of living beings have lived and evolved over millions of years for absolutely no reason at all.

um...no

instead of "turning it around" as you put it, you just made yourself sound foolish by exposing your lack of understanding of the scientific method.

the theory that you so clumsily misrepresented, is just that, a theory. One of many as to how life came about in our universe.

Seeing as no one was around to record what really happened, all scientists have are reasonable ideas based on what we now to be true.

and if you're going to shamelessly quote something you saw on the internet, at least provide a valid argument to support it

 

[Raven's Nest]

One good example would be the Big Bang theory.

Dont forget, it is still only a theory... The world was flat once after all...

As likely as the big bang theory is, I really doubt science will ever understand why it happened. In light of this darkness, I wonder why scientist won't even entertain the idea of a force that some call "His divine will" is responsible for it. It took a long time for someone to give gravity a name after all.

 

[ottenni]

Yeah i cant say i really know anything about that, i just like to keep and open mind to new theories and to be a huge skeptic towards anything becoming a fact. But ill take your word for this one.

When I said one example, I meant an example of a theory met with ridicule. The Big Bang theory was scoffed at by Einstein until Hubble supported it.
.

See what i mean when i said i knew nothing. That is something i never knew, and i find very interesting. Thank you, you learn something new every day.

 

[HandsomeJack]

"Here is your chance to convince some people here that not all religious people are "nut jobs" or irrational or backwards..." - ravens_nest

I appreciate the open forum to do so, but I resent that I should have to. It should not be acceptable for that initial presumption to be default. Anymore than it would be for me to assume those are not religious are inherrently evil people.

Sorry to have to copy/paste...seems my computer isnt likeing the "Quote" function tonight.

 

[Kubanator]

Dont forget, it is still only a theory... The world was flat once after all...

As likely as the big bang theory is, I really doubt science will ever understand why it happened. In light of this darkness, I wonder why scientist won't even entertain the idea of a force that some call "His divine will" is responsible for it. It took a long time for someone to give gravity a name after all.

Because the universe would be the same either way. If you add a creator in, the world acts according to the laws he put in place during creation.

"Here is your chance to convince some people here that not all religious people are "nut jobs" or irrational or backwards..."

I appreciate the open forum to do so, but I resent that I should have to. It should not be acceptable for that initial presumption to be default. Anymore than it would be for me to assume those are not religious are inherently evil people.

I didn't presume anything. I read many posts by religious people which ask for absolute belief, and they became enraged when I suggested that their faith was irrational.

 

[Last of the Chinchillas]

Only a planet capable of supporting life would be able to ask the question, how is this possible. After all, there's been an infinite amount of time before us.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by that.

 

[Raven's Nest]

[


instead of "turning it around" as you put it, you just made yourself sound foolish by exposing your lack of understanding of the scientific method.

And by flaming a subject matter that you don't support makes you the perfect judge of foolishness?

Do me a favour...

 

[Kubanator]

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by that.

Ok. Under Big bang theory, anything that happened in the universe before it doesn't matter. You could have tried coding a message into it, but in the singularity, your message would cease to exist. Therefore, time before the Big bang is irrelevant, and could be 1 second, to infinite. And as for the first point, there could be trillions of planets out there, and only ours supports life, but only our planet, the one with life, would ask how we came to be. After all, with trillions of planets, one's bound to create life.

um...no

instead of "turning it around" as you put it, you just made yourself sound foolish by exposing your lack of understanding of the scientific method.

the theory that you so clumsily misrepresented, is just that, a theory. One of many as to how life came about in our universe.

Seeing as no one was around to record what really happened, all scientists have are reasonable ideas based on what we now to be true.

and if you're going to shamelessly quote something you saw on the internet, at least provide a valid argument to support it

While your post was humorous, appeal to ridicule is not a valid argument, and I'd prefer if you added some substance to go along with your humor.

 

[Raven's Nest]

"Here is your chance to convince some people here that not all religious people are "nut jobs" or irrational or backwards..." - ravens_nest

I appreciate the open forum to do so, but I resent that I should have to. It should not be acceptable for that initial presumption to be default. Anymore than it would be for me to assume those are not religious are inherrently evil people.

Sorry to have to copy/paste...seems my computer isnt likeing the "Quote" function tonight.

Well the question in the title is a question after all. Just because the OP stated his views doesn't mean he isn't predisposed not to listen to the opposing part of the debate. However in this debate, your views would be on the defensive. That isn't to say your gulity until proven innocent. I've seen those threads and they are obvious troll threads, which get locked instantly...

As long as there is politeness and respect, all views are considered valid here my friend.

 

[Last of the Chinchillas]

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by that.

Ok. Under Big bang theory, anything that happened in the universe before it doesn't matter. You could have tried coding a message into it, but in the singularity, your message would cease to exist. Therefore, time before the Big bang is irrelevant, and could be 1 second, to infinite. And as for the first point, there could be trillions of planets out there, and only ours supports life, but only our planet, the one with life, would ask how we came to be. After all, with trillions of planets, one's bound to create life.

I still fail to see how the non-existence of everything before the Big Bang is important to this. I mean, if you want to boil Christian theology down to its most basic elements involving creation, it's pretty much the same: there was nothing, than God created everything.
And the fact that this planet in particular is set at an appropiate distance from the sun, developed a breathable atmosphere, and managed to eventually evolve intelligent life that could question its existence is just too much of a coincidence from where I'm sitting. Why, exactly? I mean, haven't all of our experiments to try and create life in a controlled environment using the same conditions from Earth's beginnings failed? (This is what I've heard, at least. Could be completely wrong.) The involvement of some intelligent higher being makes sense to me.

 

[Raven's Nest]

Dont forget, it is still only a theory... The world was flat once after all...

As likely as the big bang theory is, I really doubt science will ever understand why it happened. In light of this darkness, I wonder why scientist won't even entertain the idea of a force that some call "His divine will" is responsible for it. It took a long time for someone to give gravity a name after all.

Because the universe would be the same either way. If you add a creator in, the world acts according to the laws he put in place during creation.

This is where minds need to be opened I think. It's important to consider that not everyone's idea of the creator is a man in white robes with a big beard. I believe that what ever sparked the big bang, to be God. Maybe things have unfolded according to his plan, maybe his plan was that it should be random. Perhaps this force still exists within all of us, in the form of what we call life. Perhaps every single atom in existence contains this energy? Perhaps not...

The point is, just because we haven't proven it wrong, doesn't mean it isn't a possibility. And just because we don't have the technology to see it yet, it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Like micro bacteria for example. We knew something must cause the spread of disease and we spent a long time guessing what it was. Eventually someone was able to invent the microscope and we proved our theories to be correct. Why can't the same be true of an energy that may reside within all of us? Every culture on the planet has believed in an internal energy. From martial artist's to Yoga teachers to Obi Wan Kenobi.

No one has proved it exists but I've percieved many ways that it might have an effect on my life. From my moods to the sponatneous power people can sometimes have that defies scientific knowledge. These things have been proven to occur but we do not understand why... Yet.

I see no reason that I can't call this energy "Divine will"...

 

[Serge A. Storms]

Bertrand Russell spoke on this.

 

[Kubanator]

I still fail to see how the non-existence of everything before the Big Bang is important to this. I mean, if you want to boil Christian theology down to its most basic elements involving creation, it's pretty much the same: there was nothing, than God created everything.

It's not nothing, it's that what ever existed before the big bang is irrelevant. It could have been nothing, or it could have been ninja robot zombie Jesus.

And the fact that this planet in particular is set at an appropiate distance from the sun, developed a breathable atmosphere, and managed to eventually evolve intelligent life that could question its existence is just too much of a coincidence from where I'm sitting. Why, exactly? I mean, haven't all of our experiments to try and create life in a controlled environment using the same conditions from Earth's beginnings failed? (This is what I've heard, at least. Could be completely wrong.) The involvement of some intelligent higher being makes sense to me.

Ok, let's look at it this way. There are a lot of planets in this universe. Trillions. Now if one in a trillion planets develops life, is that really unlikely?

Also, concerning the origins of life, there was an experiment to prove that life can originate from nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment

This is where minds need to be opened I think. It's important to consider that not everyone's idea of the creator is a man in white robes with a big beard. I believe that what ever sparked the big bang, to be God. Maybe things have unfolded according to his plan, maybe his plan was that it should be random. Perhaps this force still exists within all of us, in the form of what we call life. Perhaps every single atom in existence contains this energy? Perhaps not...

God is sentient, and all powerful. Or at least that's the definition I'm using.

The point is, just because we haven't proven it wrong, doesn't mean it isn't a possibility. And just because we don't have the technology to see it yet, it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Of course, but why consider a possibility if you have no direct evidence for it.

Like micro bacteria for example. We knew something must cause the spread of disease and we spent a long time guessing what it was. Eventually someone was able to invent the microscope and we proved our theories to be correct. Why can't the same be true of an energy that may reside within all of us? Every culture on the planet has believed in an internal energy. From martial artist's to Yoga teachers to Obi Wan Kenobi.

But before the microscope came about, people never spouted about the existence of tiny organisms as a fact, and only an idea.

No one has proved it exists but I've percieved many ways that it might have an effect on my life. From my moods to the sponatneous power people can sometimes have that defies scientific knowledge. These things have been proven to occur but we do not understand why... Yet.

I see no reason that I can't call this energy "Divine will"...

Aren't most East Asian religions in that vein? "You are your own God" kind of thing?

 

[CK76]

Just to clarify: Nobody during the age of Colombus EVER seriously thought the world was flat. This one greek guy proved it wasn't, but even BEFORE that people suspected it was round but couldn't prove it.

I would like to find the moron who spread that fallacious rumor about everyone thinking the world was flat and stomp all over his grave.

The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus as written by Washington Irving is what created this myth. He needed some drama for his tale and aded this dimension, no one asked "but wasn't the globe (as in the map) as we know it made by to Martin Behaim in Nürnberg, Germany, in...wait for it...1492!" Earlier globes existed.

So, go dance. His grave is in Sleepy Hollow, New York.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

To start off my response, yes.. I am an "Atheist". But no, I pretend to make no assumption on the subject.

I personally believe that religion causes more distress than it causes peace, as religion in its very core demands you believe and accept in something with no more causes than simply someone telling you "because it is". It tells you not to think for yourself, but allow the "Divine Creator" to think and plan your life for you.. which defeats the entire purpose of using that mind given to you.

If you look at the Christian bible, there are too many contradictions to the "All seeing, omnipotent, all loving God" as described in it. (ex. Near at least 4 genocides committed by this "benevolent, all loving" God, a God that allows people to be what they decide.. but kills them off when they deviate from "Him", telling Abraham to kill his son just to prove he has faith in this God, and more or less getting scared when it looks like he actually -will- do it, hence sending his angel to stop him). Same thing with the great flood (or ecocide, in other words, "messing up his creation"). Which would seem to prove the ideal that we are only illusioned to have "free will". Or punishing creation for eternity from the "Adam and Eve" story, simply allowing "original sin" to permeate our being, and giving painful childbirth to all women. As well, the constant "?" of how people began to multiply from them when they were basically all brothers and sisters and cousins to start off, they would have been incestual and died off due to mutation before we would ever reach a population.

Religion has proved nothing but to cause wars between the religious cultures of the world, and placed the typical person within it, justifying their actions as only "God commands it", or "God tells me to do this". What about you? How the hell do you justify killing hundreds of thousands of people in the name of this "God", when there is no proof to prove OR disprove the existance of one? I'm typically talking about fundamentalists here, and not your everyday person.

To conclude this, as I could probably go on for hours.. why? I am "atheist", I dont believe in "God" or religion. Does that make me an evil person? I wouldnt think so, as if I dont believe in a "God", why the hell would I believe in the "Devil" in turn? I dont live my life concerned with a concept of "heaven" (paradise), or hell (condemnation), just when my time comes.. or rather all of our times, we will probably find out then if either of us is right or wrong. *Shrug*

My 2 cents.

 

[SovietSecrets]

Nope not rational at all. How can you call stoning people who are gay and giving answers to people that can't be proven and then those said people go out and try to convince everyone they are right, rational? Thats why there is Philosophy.