Is religion rational?

[thermo1]

Religion is typically irrational.

The problem arises when people think irrationality is inherently bad.

and how is irrationality ever good?

when you help people in need for no personal benefit. is that not technically irrational?

Not from an evolutionary stand point. if they survive they might help you in the future, and doesn't it make you feel good to help them?

fair enough what about women they are irrational and i like them (Joke plz dont kill me)

 

[ShadowsofHope]

This thread is inherently divisive. Neither side will believe the other under any circumstances. The best way to make enemies on a forum is to mention religion or politics.

As I mentioned.

..But the fire has been fueled and lit to a bonfire by now. Not much to do about it now, I suppose. People are righted to their arguements, no matter how redundant and dead horsed it is.

I would like to say one more thing however.. Is not the absence of fear the absence of the desire to believe in a "higher power"? People will not believe there is anything more to our existance when there is nothing to threaten it. When religion tries to make people fear and love "God" out of nothing, obviously people are going to question. Your told by almost everyone if you dont believe like "everyone else", you'll be damned to hell. (Oooooh, scary though, right? -_-)

Did you know the concept of the Christian "devil" is actually Pan - a god of pleasure, entertainment, and festivity? How the hell do you correlate the two, or use the image of Pan to illustrate the "embodiment of all evil"? See where this doesnt begin to make sense?

Anyways, I'm just even furthering the debate. I'm going to stop now, and let this continue on without me, if thats fine with everyone. [/sarcasm at the end, there]

 

[Kubanator]

Ok, so you're saying that there may or may not have been something that existed before the Big Bang, but because our own existence came after that event, it's completely irrelevant to us. Makes sense. I still fail to see its relevance to the discussion.

Big bangs work in cycles, thus we'd have an infinite amount of time to develop life. Given that there is a probablity of life developing by itself, life will develop.

No, this proves that you can get organic compounds from nothing. Adenine, guanine, cytosine, and tuarine may be the building blocks of life, but their existence does not constitute life. The production of amino acids and the production of life are two different things.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

Also, not <3ing the flames guys. That means you Bright_Raven.

 

[thermo1]

the horse is twitching beat it...

On topic: It can boil down to old philosphocal point that we have to rely on evrything using are senses and we can nver know that we are not just "brains in matrix" like thing

 

[Raven's Nest]

God is sentient, and all powerful. Or at least that's the definition I'm using.

Thats fine for the purposes of your thread but you seem like your open to discuss alternative possibilities so for the purposes of this conversation try to envison God not as entity but more like "the force" before it got raped by midichlorians that is... Your familiar with the term chi yes? Well hypothetically imagine that chi is actually divine energy that we recieve from God. This'll help you understand my beliefs in the discussion that follows...

The point is, just because we haven't proven it wrong, doesn't mean it isn't a possibility. And just because we don't have the technology to see it yet, it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Of course, but why consider a possibility if you have no direct evidence for it.

This is the key article of faith my friend... My theories give me comfort in that I think I understand the way the universe works. My beliefs cater for a lot of things that science has yet to explain. Whereas I do not flaunt these ideas as truth, I can understnad the frustration of scientists when some religious people do. I am neither ignorant nor irrational in my thinking.

How does science explain ghosts? Or the concept of a soul? Raw talent? Personal preferances? Psychic abilities?... Simply put, it can't, but there are literally billions of people that have lived and died by the idea that some of these things are real.

Like micro bacteria for example. We knew something must cause the spread of disease and we spent a long time guessing what it was. Eventually someone was able to invent the microscope and we proved our theories to be correct. Why can't the same be true of an energy that may reside within all of us? Every culture on the planet has believed in an internal energy. From martial artist's to Yoga teachers to Obi Wan Kenobi.

But before the microscope came about, people never spouted about the existence of tiny organisms as a fact, and only an idea.

And one must know where to point the microscope in the first place. The philosophy of science is to observe, theorize then attempt to prove or disprove a theory. I have observed and I have theorized. The process of life, I would call, is an ongoing experiment to prove of disprove those theories. Even if I could only prove that "chi" existed, it would not have been a wasted life. Perhaps the next generation could prove the link to God. The proof isn't what's important to me, it's the journey it takes to find the proof...

I'm sure that phrase will sound familiar to you...

No one has proved it exists but I've percieved many ways that it might have an effect on my life. From my moods to the sponatneous power people can sometimes have that defies scientific knowledge. These things have been proven to occur but we do not understand why... Yet.

I see no reason that I can't call this energy "Divine will"...

Aren't most East Asian religions in that vein? "You are your own God" kind of thing?

Yes, I also happen to believe that all the major religions are in some way correct... But all are going about preaching it in the wrong way...

Each religious institution is like an inflexible roadblock on the path of progress. Each wars with the other. Christians spend all their time and money wanting to convert everyone into their doctrine of judgementalness. The Jews want to remain isolated in a dream of chosen-ness. The Muslims think it's about camaraderie and collective power and holy hatred. And in the east, they might be the worst. They disregard the real world for a fanciful inner life no one can understand. With all this chaos of metaphysics no one can focus on progress, on easing the burden of the poor, on seeing that every child is educated.

If the religious leaders of the world would actually realise this, the world would be a much better place. Science should be working with religion not against it. To be opposed to the idea of religion is also to be opposed the idea of righteousness (Christianity), charity (Islam), self improvement (buddahism).

End of rant. Hehe

 

[Biosophilogical]

I can turn that around though.

Science: the belief that at first, absolutely nothing existed, after which nothing exploded which by chance happened to create millions of galaxies filled with millions of stars on which in turn millions of living beings have lived and evolved over millions of years for absolutely no reason at all.

Ah, that made me laugh. And yet, the very history of science contradicts that, as, throughout history, new approaches to world laws have been introduced, accepted as more likely than the current ones because they explain more, only to be replaced by new laws which explain even greater amounts.

Basically it is a constantly evolving set of theories, so although science may be what you say now, in twenty years, science may state that everything in existence existed in some form or another for ever, and there was no beginning, or it may state that in the beginning God existed then he swallowed a box of explosives and a fireplace, and everything that exists is the exploded body of God. (Not religion-bashing, just putting two completely different theories on both sides of the 'possible' scale).

 

[thermo1]

How does science explain ghosts? Or the concept of a soul? Raw talent? Personal preferances? Psychic abilities?... Simply put, it can't, but there are literally billions of people that have lived and died by the idea that some of these things are real.

I liked evrything else u said but....

Ghosts are not real

We dont have a soul we have a mind

Raw talent is just created by the random combining of genes + mutations every so often that create different attributes in ppl + som environmental factors like nutrition and u get ppl who are better than others at certain things

Personal preferances are the same really except more heavily affected by your environment i.e upbringing

Psychic abilities: dont make me laugh no one has psychic abilities

 

[Admiral Stukov]

As an atheist and a science student I say; yes it's irrational.
And I personally belives the world could be a better place without religion together.

 

[thermo1]

As an atheist and a science student I say; yes it's irrational.
And I personally belives the world could be a better place without religion together.

so many ppl hate horses

 

[Raven's Nest]

This thread is inherently divisive. Neither side will believe the other under any circumstances. The best way to make enemies on a forum is to mention religion or politics.

Actually it's usually the best way to sort the pricks from the decent people on the forum. Anyone who has flamed in this thread or any thread for that matter is clearly a prick... When was the last time anyone saw a religious person flaming an athiest for not believing in god in this thread or on the forum boards in general? Because I have never seen a flame war that wasn't started by an anti-theist.

 

[The_Prophet]

I find post like these really distasteful. I get the impression that the poster just wanted to make an anti-religious statement phrased safely as a question. Post like these seldom produce anything but anger and bile from all sides. I have my thoughts on it, being a religious man, but I would rather discuss such things with people who I can interact with personally and respectfully. Otherwise I am likely to come off as slamming those who I would be dissagreeing with. Seriously, this post is a broad stroke invitation to bite at eachother's throats, why cater to it.

I doubt his intention was bad my friend, but the outcome from these threads is always bad.

-Joe

The sad truth.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

Just to clarify: Nobody during the age of Colombus EVER seriously thought the world was flat. This one greek guy proved it wasn't, but even BEFORE that people suspected it was round but couldn't prove it.

I would like to find the moron who spread that fallacious rumor about everyone thinking the world was flat and stomp all over his grave.

The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus as written by Washington Irving is what created this myth. He needed some drama for his tale and aded this dimension, no one asked "but wasn't the globe (as in the map) as we know it made by to Martin Behaim in Nürnberg, Germany, in...wait for it...1492!" Earlier globes existed.

So, go dance. His grave is in Sleepy Hollow, New York.

I SHALL! HERE I COME, WASHINGTON IRVING, YOU SON OF A WOMAN OF QUESTIONABLE FIDELITY!

 

[Nieroshai]

This thread is inherently divisive. Neither side will believe the other under any circumstances. The best way to make enemies on a forum is to mention religion or politics.

Actually it's usually the best way to sort the pricks from the decent people on the forum. Anyone who has flamed in this thread or any thread for that matter is clearly a prick... When was the last time anyone saw a religious person flaming an athiest for not believing in god in this thread or on the forum boards in general? Because I have never seen a flame war that wasn't started by an anti-theist.

Alright, decent point. Any rate, this is the third time I've been quoted. Thank you for the attention, but I'd really like to see you all return to your little brawl and fight some more in a war neither side is bound to win anytime soon. It makes for some good reading.

 

[Raven's Nest]

How does science explain ghosts? Or the concept of a soul? Raw talent? Personal preferances? Psychic abilities?... Simply put, it can't, but there are literally billions of people that have lived and died by the idea that some of these things are real.

I liked evrything else u said but....

Ghosts are not real

We dont have a soul we have a mind

Raw talent is just created by the random combining of genes + mutations every so often that create different attributes in ppl + som environmental factors like nutrition and u get ppl who are better than others at certain things

Personal preferances are the same really except more heavily affected by your environment i.e upbringing

Psychic abilities: dont make me laugh no one has psychic abilities

Re-read the last sentance...

I didn't say I believed in these things, but I have found a way of rationalising them which in all honesty would take too long to explain and I don't feel the need to here but the basic premise is that you would need to open your mind up to the possibility of having a soul and the act of reincarnation... Don't forget these are also very widley held beliefs.

Besides they are all your opinions of the above subjects, I'm not saying your wrong because your quite entitled to your opinion.

 

[Last of the Chinchillas]

Ok, so you're saying that there may or may not have been something that existed before the Big Bang, but because our own existence came after that event, it's completely irrelevant to us. Makes sense. I still fail to see its relevance to the discussion.

Big bangs work in cycles, thus we'd have an infinite amount of time to develop life. Given that there is a probablity of life developing by itself, life will develop.

No, this proves that you can get organic compounds from nothing. Adenine, guanine, cytosine, and tuarine may be the building blocks of life, but their existence does not constitute life. The production of amino acids and the production of life are two different things.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

Also, not <3ing the flames guys. That means you Bright_Raven.

Well, all right then. All good to know, considering I'm headed for a career in biology.

I still believe that there's something to my other comment about human oddities like art and existential thought that point to some greater truth.

I believe that it was you earlier that made the comment that the universe would run according to laws set up by God (or something like that), and believe it or not, there's a good number of Catholic theologians who believe that same thing.

It's late, and I require sleep, so I suppose I'm done here. Glad to see that this thread didn't collapse into a total flame-war.

EDIT: Ah, one last thing. The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James. It's an interesting read on the psychology of religion. Give it a try.

 

[SonicKoala]

I'm a Catholic and heres my stance on this. Is loving thy neighbour irrational? Is doing unto others as you would have them do unto you irrational? Is being generally peaceful irrational? Is not murdering, not stealing, not cheating, not lying and just not being very nice in general towards anyone irrational? Because those are the basic teachings of all religions, and if you call that irrational you need to take a long hard look at yourself.

Got any good slaves lying around?

my mum wore clothing made of two types of cloth, do i have to go home to help her be burned to death, or can my father do it?

My friend wears glasses, why is he cursed to hell?

How were your crusades?

What is that about a Jihad?

and what is with all that ethnic clensing in the gaza strip?

And how many people have died of aids in Africa that would not have if your pope had not convinced them that condoms are the cause of aids, instead of a preventive measure?

The things you just sited are not, by any means, part of religious teachings. They are the result of people misinterpreting and exploiting religion for their own personal reasons. Everything you sited is a by-product of religion, but that does not mean that religion itself is an inherently bad concept. Capitalism is a good idea - a by-product of capitalism? Poverty and death.