Then was apparently ruined by TOR. Sigh.j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Obsidian need to be given 4 years or something to make KoTOR3 and retcon the whole of TOR out of existence.
Is Revan a Light Sith or a Dark Jedi? *possible minor spoilers*
- Thread starter Jaeke
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Obsidian need to be given 4 years or something to make KoTOR3 and retcon the whole of TOR out of existence.
First of all, you should definitely play KOTOR 2. I understand your hesitancy, but it's not really an Obsidian title. It feels just like a Bioware game in every detail. The story is amazing and does a good job of tying in to the original while retaining its own identity as a separate entity. The characters are great, if a tad rehashed from KOTOR 1, and there's a lot to do in the game world. Even though I think the ending is a little frantic. It's a worthy successor in pretty much every way.
Now to the what is Revan question. To this, there is no one answer. Revan is whatever you make of the character. Revan can be a ruthless tyrant, using allies to further the goal of becoming Sith Lord and ruling the galaxy with an iron fist. Revan can be a warm-hearted story of redemption, becoming a peaceful, charitable individual with a big heart but an even bigger will when the going gets tough. Revan can start down the path of redemption, only to be turned by events around them, back down the path of darkness. Making Revan more of a tragic villain (akin to Vader, but better fleshed out). Revan's story is what you make of it.
Now as for the gender debate. This is also a question without a real answer. As anyone who's played both games should be well aware of, the gender of Revan is also a facet decided by the player in the early stages of both titles. this leaves Revan's gender, background, story, rise, fall, redemption or lack thereof, almost all of the player's choosing. There will be something different about every vision of Revan in every person here's mind. And that's one of the things that makes Revan such an amazing character. Revan is what you decide Revan is. You mold Revan's gender, personality, relationships, look, force affinity, and more by how you play the game, and the choices you make throughout.
FTR: I am discounting The Old Republic. A) I have yet to play it, and likely won't any time soon. Making it impossible to have a firm grasp of what happens in it. B) It's a separate entity outside of the KOTOR series, and I wouldn't consider it anything else, whether I'd played it or not.
Now to the what is Revan question. To this, there is no one answer. Revan is whatever you make of the character. Revan can be a ruthless tyrant, using allies to further the goal of becoming Sith Lord and ruling the galaxy with an iron fist. Revan can be a warm-hearted story of redemption, becoming a peaceful, charitable individual with a big heart but an even bigger will when the going gets tough. Revan can start down the path of redemption, only to be turned by events around them, back down the path of darkness. Making Revan more of a tragic villain (akin to Vader, but better fleshed out). Revan's story is what you make of it.
Now as for the gender debate. This is also a question without a real answer. As anyone who's played both games should be well aware of, the gender of Revan is also a facet decided by the player in the early stages of both titles. this leaves Revan's gender, background, story, rise, fall, redemption or lack thereof, almost all of the player's choosing. There will be something different about every vision of Revan in every person here's mind. And that's one of the things that makes Revan such an amazing character. Revan is what you decide Revan is. You mold Revan's gender, personality, relationships, look, force affinity, and more by how you play the game, and the choices you make throughout.
FTR: I am discounting The Old Republic. A) I have yet to play it, and likely won't any time soon. Making it impossible to have a firm grasp of what happens in it. B) It's a separate entity outside of the KOTOR series, and I wouldn't consider it anything else, whether I'd played it or not.
No, as it is actually part of the Star Wars universe and its now substantial history almost everything about Revan has been revealed by the people who created everything about him... AKA the only people in a position to officialy state anything. As there are many story changes that can take place within KOTOR and ALL of them cannot have happened the only alternative through your reasoning is that none of them happened, as this is ridiculous and makes all of the creativity put into KOTOR pointless it is clearly the smartest move to come up with canon.j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
And no, Darth Vader isnt a Hutt because the people who created Vader decided that he wasnt... exactly as the people who created Revan decided he was male. Revan is male, that is a fact. The Exile is a female, that is a fact.
IMHO, Revan would be neither. As I saw it, Revan did not even truly fall. From what I could tell Revan was doing what was necessary in order to help the galaxy (in a "remove the gangrenous arm to save the body" sort of way, but still).
Honestly I've always preferred the Exile from Kotor 2 myself over Revan. Dramatic plot reveal aside, Revan as he/she is portrayed in Kotor is kinda... well, boring. Good guy/girl with good intentions falls to the lure of the 'dark side' only to find redemption in an unexpected way. Whether that redemption is becoming good again or just regaining their position of power is up to the player of course, but it's a redemption nonetheless.
The Exile by contrast is just a more compelling and sympathetic character. Someone who also did what they believed was right but who payed the price for those good intentions. Someone who essentially became the galaxies scapegoat, persecuted and hated in place of Revan because, well, Revan was a special case but they needed 'someone' to blame. Someone who ended up with nowhere to go and nothing left to fight for, disillusioned by those who'd ostracized them and hounded by those who remember their fall from grace.
It's just a really interesting character simply by merit of that extremely broad description, and that's not even getting into 'the force' and whatnot.
Which is not to say Kotor was bad by any stretch, one of my favourite moments was actually the utterly predictable but well done nonetheless twist with Bastilla and the ensuing dialogue as you attempt to reason with her at a later point. Very well done, very dramatic, I like that sort of stuff. I just find Kotor 2 (With the Restored Content Mod anyway) to have much more of an emotional impact than the first game.
For what it's worth however my favourite 'Revan' is this one. I like the idea of a character facing the sad truth that although they might have the best intentions, they're simply too weak to try and face down their own inner demons. Pity the ending was cut, but I imagine they didn't want to leave it in in case there would ever be any confusion where people were going 'but I thought Revan died?'.
The Exile by contrast is just a more compelling and sympathetic character. Someone who also did what they believed was right but who payed the price for those good intentions. Someone who essentially became the galaxies scapegoat, persecuted and hated in place of Revan because, well, Revan was a special case but they needed 'someone' to blame. Someone who ended up with nowhere to go and nothing left to fight for, disillusioned by those who'd ostracized them and hounded by those who remember their fall from grace.
It's just a really interesting character simply by merit of that extremely broad description, and that's not even getting into 'the force' and whatnot.
Which is not to say Kotor was bad by any stretch, one of my favourite moments was actually the utterly predictable but well done nonetheless twist with Bastilla and the ensuing dialogue as you attempt to reason with her at a later point. Very well done, very dramatic, I like that sort of stuff. I just find Kotor 2 (With the Restored Content Mod anyway) to have much more of an emotional impact than the first game.
For what it's worth however my favourite 'Revan' is this one. I like the idea of a character facing the sad truth that although they might have the best intentions, they're simply too weak to try and face down their own inner demons. Pity the ending was cut, but I imagine they didn't want to leave it in in case there would ever be any confusion where people were going 'but I thought Revan died?'.
Sith all the way. Partly I always loved the Sith second, those assholes should've told me. I would understood the reasons why they did what they did, instead they used me.
I read that a rule of thumb when it comes to Star Wars is this: 1) the protagonist is always male (KotOR2 and that one PSP game being the two exceptions) and 2) the "light side ending" is always canon.
From my understanding it was entirely possible (though unlikely IMO) that Revan never fell. That (s)he was a Jedi all along and that their apparent Sith phase was simply an attempt to consolidate power to resist the coming of the true Sith - that they chose the lesser evil every step of the way.
Regardless; Revan started as a warrior Jedi, ended as a warrior Jedi and did an astronomical buttload of violence in the middle so I think you have to classify him/her as a dark Jedi.
Regardless; Revan started as a warrior Jedi, ended as a warrior Jedi and did an astronomical buttload of violence in the middle so I think you have to classify him/her as a dark Jedi.
The canon Revan is a male, light-side Jedi, who was turned by the Emprah and redeemed when Malak betrayed him and the Jedi mind-raped him. That's generally how I played through KOTOR 1, so I can't say it's wrong for my personal Revan either.Jaeke said:
That said, I'm rather disappointed by what Bioware did with Revan in TOR. They took out whatever depth he may have had and handwaved him as being "the only one in tune with the light and dark side of the force!". It's really clunky and stupid, so bleh.
Just as well. He had no personality or motivation beyond "ME AM PLOT DEVICE!"j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Personally, I find Obsidian games plodding and aimless. Was Kreia deep? Sure. Doesn't make KOTOR 2 a good story; the pacing was shit, everyone BESIDES Kreia pretty much took a back seat, and even if Obsidian completed the game as they intended, these issues would've still been around. I've found more ambiguous morality in Dragon Age than I did KOTOR 2.j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Erm, no... I still have both KOTOR and KOTOR II, I can see them from where I am typing right now, I have completed them both multiple times. KOTOR II expanded Revans story in relation to the Exile, so if by "interesting" you mean "Knew the Exile" then sure... but I dont find that particularly interesting. You learn about Revan from the story, some NPCs, HK-47 and speaking with Canderous Ordo. You learn that Revan intentionally avoided using the Star Forges power to its full extent because of its corrupting nature, that he left infrastructure intact on planets that he knew were important so he wouldnt need to rebuild from scratch, that something in the outer-rim warped Revan and Malak completely, that Revan was a brilliant tactician and leader but that he also fought like a Mandalorian and did anything to win. All of this is revealed in KOTOR through simple discussion with other characters and playing through the main storyline.j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
All KOTOR II did was introduce a character who was one of Revans followers who he clearly didnt trust as she was sent to Malachor V to die with others he thought were not loyal and the majority of the Mandalorian Armada... a merciless act, sacrificing many of his own to criple the Mandalorians and win the Mandalorian War... something we already knew he was capable of and a war we already knew he won.
Also, BioWare didnt decide the Exile being female was Canon... that was revealed years ago.
Also, I dont quite see how your reply is relevent? Can I just say a games name and then list things I think happened in its story? Dont see what that does to support my argument...
Anyway, point still stands... Revan = Male. Exile/Meetra Surik = Female. This is very much an uphill struggle for you... the hill being the truth.
EDIT: Not to mention this tasty little quote that I just found "There was something lurking out there, something that devoured Revan and Malak - and many other Jedi." - Bastilla.
Hmm, KOTOR already revealed Revan went into the outer-rim and came back changed... Bastilla flat-out says something was lurking and changing, not just Jedi, but powerful Jedi like Revan and Malak. I wonder... how, how did KOTOR II decide Revan would go and fight something in the outer-rim? I just... dont get it(!)
And wait, you think Obsidian didnt step on BioWares toes with their story?
They have not 1 but 2 Sith Lords rise to prominence in the 5 years between the 2 stories, both apparently trained by the last person Revan visited before leaving known space for the outer-rim... one who has gained immortality and stands out in a fucking crowd to say the least and the other who consumes entire planets and has been doing so for quite a while. And Revan didnt notice this? While he was flying through space fighting in 2 seperate wars and being THE reason the people who won those wars won them... and he didnt hear about any immortal guy who holds his own body together with the force and looks like a zombie? Or about the guy who is not even flesh anymore and consumes planets?
And neither of these guys deemed Revan threatening enough to go face him... BUT felt the Exile was when, at the time they began hunting the Exile, she had no connection to the force at all or even a lightsaber and even with the force and the lightsaber still wasnt close to being as powerful as Revan?! And I quote: "Revan was power. Looking at him was like looking into the heart of the force itself." - Kreia, a person who knew both Revan and Surik and says nothing even close to that level of power about The Exile.
You can play the game how you like... but without an actual defined canon story the only alternative is that nothing happened as all options cannot happen at once.DustyDrB said:
The Exile was highly ranked in Revans Republic, second only to Malak... you might remember that Revan was given full control of the Republic armada, so The Exile being promoted to General was under Revans authority. Also, Revan never saw Meetra Surik as a threat. He didnt even see Malak as a threat, even after Malak tried to betray Revan and got his jaw cut off. He sent The Exile to Malachor V to push the button and, like the tactician that he was, he used the fact that she was severed from the Force to his advantage. It only happened because she severed her own connection to the Force instinctively to save her life and without the Force she could not be a Jedi and her reliance on the Force made her weak without it... thats what Revan wanted to show the Council, Revan having won most of his battles through his brilliant tactics expanded his abilities proving he did not rely too much on the Force so it could not be his weakness... which you will remember is the same thing he did with the Star Forge, he used it as little as he could so the strength it offered didnt become a weakness.DustyDrB said:
EDIT: Sorry it took so long to reply.
Revan is a Honey Badger - He doesn't give a fuck. He's not Sith, he's not Jedi, he just happened to be going in the same general direction as both of those groups at one point or another. I belive that as of the last appearance (TOR), he was mostly Light side oriented, but that's about all.