Well that certainly is insensitive but your noted example is old and the other doesn't seem that bad the way you describe it. I'd need more then that to see racism beyond the normal white privilege.
Is Square racist?
- Thread starter EzraPound
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Exactly this, after all, most Japanese games are based on stereotypes, the hero, the girl in distress, the gadget girl, the big muscular man with a heart... its just the way they try to please as many people as they can, trying to make at least one character that someone can relate to, or give a damnJohnnyallstar said:
see any FF game or any Anime from the 90´s and you will get the idea
ON-T: You have consider that it has to do alot with hardware limitations. Did you know that in old games, female models were given HUGE breasts due to the limitations of the graphics back in the day? All you could do was put up two triangles, and even then, they didn't look like much at a distance. This is true, and anyone who has read up on old game modeling books will see this is one of the things that was discussed about alot.
You also have to consider color limitation. Black was extremely easy to render out, but dump in a couple of brown that actually look like brown and not you TV has a burn at one part, and good luck. It's not until we went 16bits that we atleast got something note-worthy as far as color go.
On pixels, it's much different in 2D. You literally would have to clump with a pair of pixels infront of the chest to make it look like a girl, or give it long hair. There was literally no other way around the issue. That racially and sexually may sound 'sexist and racist', but it wasn't. People need to learn more about how games worked the limitations before making half-arse statements like yours. Sorry, but it's true. Your opinion may have some worth for your average media and gamer (as well forum) but we developers knew and know better (especially us artist guys) so your argument is PC at best, and ignorant of the subject matter at worst to put it mildly, and is worth moot to us.
OFF-T: You are the reason many of my friends are afraid to even make the model of a black guy. Do you know how many times we took the scans of black guy, and he had by nature a more protruded lower jaw?
Or that his nose and forehead length were considerably different? Or that he had flat Afro?
Yet in the studio, they couldn't do much because there was one guy scared to hell that he would get fired on such a thing, to show at the board-meeting, and when it was shown, they were told to essentially make the guys face 'white in terms of facial features' but at a darker skin color. It also didn't help that they were told to make him bald to further the issue to tone down any allegations of racial stereotype.
It's amazing at how gamers aren't willing to buy a good game to support a worthy developer with their money, yet are willing to complain about 'what a black person should look like' and they essentially have voted as to not wishing to see stereotypes when it comes people of a different race.
The irony in all this is one of the guys who worked in the scans was a black guy himself, and he happened to be my teacher, who also happened to a texture artist for Iron Man. He actually pissed off that we couldn't show 'more faces' due to all this PC.
You also have to consider color limitation. Black was extremely easy to render out, but dump in a couple of brown that actually look like brown and not you TV has a burn at one part, and good luck. It's not until we went 16bits that we atleast got something note-worthy as far as color go.
On pixels, it's much different in 2D. You literally would have to clump with a pair of pixels infront of the chest to make it look like a girl, or give it long hair. There was literally no other way around the issue. That racially and sexually may sound 'sexist and racist', but it wasn't. People need to learn more about how games worked the limitations before making half-arse statements like yours. Sorry, but it's true. Your opinion may have some worth for your average media and gamer (as well forum) but we developers knew and know better (especially us artist guys) so your argument is PC at best, and ignorant of the subject matter at worst to put it mildly, and is worth moot to us.
OFF-T: You are the reason many of my friends are afraid to even make the model of a black guy. Do you know how many times we took the scans of black guy, and he had by nature a more protruded lower jaw?
Or that his nose and forehead length were considerably different? Or that he had flat Afro?
Yet in the studio, they couldn't do much because there was one guy scared to hell that he would get fired on such a thing, to show at the board-meeting, and when it was shown, they were told to essentially make the guys face 'white in terms of facial features' but at a darker skin color. It also didn't help that they were told to make him bald to further the issue to tone down any allegations of racial stereotype.
It's amazing at how gamers aren't willing to buy a good game to support a worthy developer with their money, yet are willing to complain about 'what a black person should look like' and they essentially have voted as to not wishing to see stereotypes when it comes people of a different race.
The irony in all this is one of the guys who worked in the scans was a black guy himself, and he happened to be my teacher, who also happened to a texture artist for Iron Man. He actually pissed off that we couldn't show 'more faces' due to all this PC.
I'm sorry, but I find that opening picture hilarious.
Moving on.
They might be, though as some have said, it's more...Insensitive, rather than openly hostile. They're not /as/ bad as, say, Capcom, but Square's had its moments. Many, many developers have, often without realizing it, or at least the wrong in it. It happens.
Now excuse me while I save that picture.
Moving on.
They might be, though as some have said, it's more...Insensitive, rather than openly hostile. They're not /as/ bad as, say, Capcom, but Square's had its moments. Many, many developers have, often without realizing it, or at least the wrong in it. It happens.
Now excuse me while I save that picture.
I don't know if I could consider Square- and, by extension, Japan as a whole- to be racist. Sometimes their characterization of certain races is very stereotypical, but I think that's more of a reflection of the Western pop-culture material that makes it into Japanese culture. Since Japan isn't very racially diverse (at least not as diverse as somewhere like the USA or England) it only makes sense for them to take cues from pop culture.
For the most part, I think Japan's stereotyping of races in entertainment isn't malicious in any way. It's done purely for entertainment, and they don't really seem to pick on any race specifically; as far as I can tell from the anime, manga, and video games I consume, pretty much any race is fair game for stereotyping, even themselves.
To be honest, I wish that Western nations were that laid back about political correctness.
For the most part, I think Japan's stereotyping of races in entertainment isn't malicious in any way. It's done purely for entertainment, and they don't really seem to pick on any race specifically; as far as I can tell from the anime, manga, and video games I consume, pretty much any race is fair game for stereotyping, even themselves.
To be honest, I wish that Western nations were that laid back about political correctness.
I don't see racism in this at all, is everyone forgetting what a caricature is?
"A caricature can refer to a portrait that exaggerates or distorts the essence of a person or thing to create an easily identifiable visual likeness" - wikipedia
Listen man I'm black and for the most part as a race we do tend to have bigger lips than most soo in drawing a caricature of a black person that's something that would stand out to the artist.
Plus every other comment about the Japanese getting most if not all their first perception of black people from foreign media is probably right and I'm pretty sure HentMas is on point from a development stand point
so no square is not racist but i appreciate your concern
p.s. i haven't played 13 yet but Barrett is easily one of the best characters from VII and his "stereotypical" nature at times only made him more human
"A caricature can refer to a portrait that exaggerates or distorts the essence of a person or thing to create an easily identifiable visual likeness" - wikipedia
Listen man I'm black and for the most part as a race we do tend to have bigger lips than most soo in drawing a caricature of a black person that's something that would stand out to the artist.
Plus every other comment about the Japanese getting most if not all their first perception of black people from foreign media is probably right and I'm pretty sure HentMas is on point from a development stand point
so no square is not racist but i appreciate your concern
p.s. i haven't played 13 yet but Barrett is easily one of the best characters from VII and his "stereotypical" nature at times only made him more human
Charicatures are kind to no-one - my partner pointed out to me that the Asterix and Obelix comics also show black people with huge red lips etc, but at the same time the (white) French (Gaulish) characters all had huge noses...MoD1212 said:
I agree that it is odd, even unpleasant to modern sensibilities to see such a charicature, and because I am caucasian myself I find it a little hard to comment - I don't condone racism, but I guess whether or not it is racist really depends on whether or not you think that the people behind the game were racist, and deliberately portrayed black people in this antiquated way as an insult. If this was the case, then you have a genuine example of racism. If not, then... I guess it's just a caricature.
At the end of the day, no, I don't think you can call Square racist based on one thing in one game tewnty-odd years ago. Whether or not those particular developers were personally and deliberately racist? Who knows...
For my complete view see a great song - everyones a little bit racist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHKIMOgoJoU
But seriously racism towards black people in Japan is unlikely to exist the same way it does in America simply because you'd have to try really really hard to actually find a black person in Japan..
And in effect the image reflects that as it simply shows as the devs dont actually know any black people they simply borrowed from iconography available to them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHKIMOgoJoU
But seriously racism towards black people in Japan is unlikely to exist the same way it does in America simply because you'd have to try really really hard to actually find a black person in Japan..
And in effect the image reflects that as it simply shows as the devs dont actually know any black people they simply borrowed from iconography available to them.
I think we should lighten up and call each other every single racial slur we can think of until we all realize that none of it means a damn thing and then we can laugh it all off.EzraPound said:
BTW im very low on white people racial slurs besides cracker i really cant think of any
I don't know whether or not it's racist (it would most definitely be considered racist in the Western world, obviously), if I were to give any noteworthy comment I would first have to study and investigate into the matter. However, I do think that there is some ignorance involved, most notably the ignorance towards certain charicatures and stereotypes. Japan doesn't seem to fully realise what is considered to be extremely offensive in other countries/cultures, nor does it seem to be bothered about all this. Considering how the ethnicity in Japan isn't as diverse as, say, the US or the Netherlands, it isn't that strange to consider that they simply don't fully realise the negative emotions these charicatures and stereotypes evoke; though I don't believe they're completely oblivious either.
African people aside, I frequently encounter genuine questions regarding Germany about how "witches cast ancient spells in the woods" and that some family member--think it was his grandma--strongly discouraged him to go there, because it's "too dangerous".
I wanted to reply by making a witty retort about tentacles, but I realised I'd be an ass if I were to do such a thing. After all, it's not his fault that he knows nothing about Germany. Also, I do find the fact that some of the Japanese wear swastikas--and I don't mean the Indian symbol--or something Nazi-related. What would they think if it became trendy to wear T-shirts saying "Fat Man" or "Little Boy", with the lines "Have a blast!" and a picture of a mushroom cloud in the Western world?
Edit: I hope everyone's intelligent enough to refrain from randomly yelling "Godwin's Law!" aloud.
African people aside, I frequently encounter genuine questions regarding Germany about how "witches cast ancient spells in the woods" and that some family member--think it was his grandma--strongly discouraged him to go there, because it's "too dangerous".
I wanted to reply by making a witty retort about tentacles, but I realised I'd be an ass if I were to do such a thing. After all, it's not his fault that he knows nothing about Germany. Also, I do find the fact that some of the Japanese wear swastikas--and I don't mean the Indian symbol--or something Nazi-related. What would they think if it became trendy to wear T-shirts saying "Fat Man" or "Little Boy", with the lines "Have a blast!" and a picture of a mushroom cloud in the Western world?
Edit: I hope everyone's intelligent enough to refrain from randomly yelling "Godwin's Law!" aloud.
No, its not. if you look at the reasons its rather painfully obvious.Fappy said:
Maybe racist is a strong word. but hte Japanese are a VERY Elitist people.
EDIT:
Honky's a good one. There's a particularly spiteful joke that nowadays seems quaint that deals with Honky and N*****.iblis666 said:
Sorry, I'm partially Native American, so I get a lot of racial slurs towards me and learned alot more about white people.
Nah.
Sazh could have easily been a stereotype. He ended up being the most realistically portrayed character in FF13. Not that the competition was stiff...
Sazh could have easily been a stereotype. He ended up being the most realistically portrayed character in FF13. Not that the competition was stiff...
I saw the title of this thread and really just wanted to respond with an outright "yup". But seriously. Based on that pic and some reference to FF7? Yeah, no. Also - I think I had that game. Awesome.
Have you ever noticed how all the Japanese characters in most japanese movies and games look more white than asian? I mean, Sen from spirited away just looks like a little white girl.
I don't think they're racist, i just think that they're culture is so different to ours that we have a hard time understanding them some times and misinterpret some things as racist that just aren't.
I don't think they're racist, i just think that they're culture is so different to ours that we have a hard time understanding them some times and misinterpret some things as racist that just aren't.
