Is Story more important then Gameplay?

[alphamalet]

Again, it's game design/theory 101

When did you attend school? The 80s? I have a degree as well in GD. You're really holding on to some out dated thinking.

Especially the part about about games being poor for story telling. They're poor if you try to tell stories like movies or books. They're amazing if you embrace the interactivity in software.

Well, if you are a game design graduate then this should be an interesting discussion!

So you know that interactivity =/= gameplay.

The dialogue in something like...Mass Effect is based around interactivity and does not constitue gameplay.

Interactivity offers a lot of potential for storytelling, but gameplay (the bulk of the game) is much harder to utilize in a storytelling process. It's hard to tell a story in a system where a challenge is presented and a quantifiable outcome results. It's why 99.9% of all games don't even attempt it. It's really REALLY difficult to weave narrative into true gameplay, and that's why video games are not the best place to tell a story. I think the advent of visual novels is exciting, where you can utilize a person's input through a basic system of interactivity in order to influence a plot. However, as you know, gameplay is something that transcends basic interactivity, and within this more rigid structure it is difficult to organically convey a proper story arc.

By the way, when and where did you study?

I assume that since you have your degree, then I am studying more current information (unlike what was suggested). One of the things that has surprised me about the research I've done in game design and theory is just how hostile most are to the idea of an elaborate plot in games. Far more hostile than I would have expected, and to a level that I don't agree with. These are contemporary resources, mind you!

 

[jehk]

Trying to get to the heart of your misconceptions so...

it is difficult to organically convey a proper story arc.

What's a proper story arc? Proper for a movie? Proper for a book? How about games? All are very different. I've seen this argument over and over again. Video games are bad for story because they cannot enforce a "proper story arc" that's more commonly associated with other media.

One of the things that has surprised me about the research I've done in game design and theory is just how hostile most are to the idea of an elaborate plot in games.

I can understand where this comes from. Games deliver narrative is a way that's completely different from anything else.

To be honest I really don't care what education you're had. However, do you really have no idea what the aesthetics of play are? Search for "MDA: A Formal Approach to Game Design and Game Research" for the original paper. The concepts presented there should be pretty foundational for you.

However, claiming your posts are Game Design 101 is either ignorance or arrogance.

 

[alphamalet]

Search for "MDA: A Formal Approach to Game Design and Game Research" for the original paper. The concepts presented there should be pretty foundational for you.

Reading it now to get a sense of where you are coming from.

And to gloss over any long-winded explanation, I define a proper story arc as a narrative that has a clear beginning, middle, and end with organic progression. I'm trying to simplify this as much has possible since I'm reading what you suggested while in the middle of scripting If this is too ambiguous for you the please say so and I can elaborate.

 

[Plinglebob]

No matter how good a games mechanics are, if the story is bad/annoying then I stop playing. If a story is good and engaging, I will suffer through really bad design to see it through to the end. The only exception to this are games where I go in knowing there's no story and the point of the game is "Messing around" (racing games, Elder Scroll series).

However, claiming your posts are Game Design 101 is either ignorance or arrogance.

My money's on arrogance.

 

[alphamalet]

snip

Okay, I read it.

First, let me ask if this was indeed the piece you are referring to:
http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf

If it was, then could you point to the specific section that helps illustrate your point.

I see the bit about games as challenge, sensation, narrative, etc. which are all foundational concepts that I have read numerous times before, but beyond that I'm not seeing any sort of justification that would lend credence to the assertion that story is more important than gameplay. That bit in the paper is acknowledgement that games are a composition of many different "aesthetics" that emotionally affect the player from moment to moment. I think we all know and agree with that. The discussion we are having however is which is more important, and I am not seeing any specific reference in the paper you suggested, a paper that chose to spend more time on gameplay as opposed to story (I wonder why that could be ), to support what you are saying...

Beyond that bit, it mainly talked about the expectations of a player within a system of challenge, and design methodologies to implement that optimizes a player-driven experience.

 

[Bad Jim]

Surely it's kind of obvious?

A game can be highly enjoyable despite a token or non-existent story, but bad gameplay will always make a game less fun. This is because you have to play the game to enjoy the story, while you can generally skip cutscenes and enjoy the gameplay on its' own. Even if you're primarily interested in story, the quality of the gameplay will always affect your experience.

 

[ImperialSunlight]

If the genre is very story heavy, like JRPGs, etc. then the story is very important, possibly more important than gameplay. If the game is not very story heavy, the story isn't that important, compared to the gameplay (this especially applies to puzzle games, fighting games, party games, etc. ).

 

[Shoggoth2588]

It all depends on the game but at the end of the day a game is a game. A good story to me is just a really nice extra (one of the few we got to keep since we don't get cheat codes as often as we used to). Games that focus more on story than gameplay though are generally games that I don't enjoy as much. Heavy Rain for example is a game that I played through to completion but can't say I enjoyed as much as Final Fantasy 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10 and, Mystic Quest.

 

[Evil Smurf]

They're both as important, see Bastion. Beautiful story, gameplay, music, narration. I love the game Bastion okay!

 

[redmoretrout]

The story is more important without a doubt. It's why the Walking Dead is so much better than Resident 6 and why Spec Ops: The Line is so much better than Call of Duty. Both the Walking Dead and Spec Ops have at best mediocre gameplay, but because their stories are great I can simply overlook the flaws in the gameplay.

 

[Reven]

snip

Okay, I read it.

First, let me ask if this was indeed the piece you are referring to:
http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf

If it was, then could you point to the specific section that helps illustrate your point.

I see the bit about games as challenge, sensation, narrative, etc. which are all foundational concepts that I have read numerous times before, but beyond that I'm not seeing any sort of justification that would lend credence to the assertion that story is more important than gameplay. That bit in the paper is acknowledgement that games are a composition of many different "aesthetics" that emotionally affect the player from moment to moment. I think we all know and agree with that. The discussion we are having however is which is more important, and I am not seeing any specific reference in the paper you suggested, a paper that chose to spend more time on gameplay as opposed to story (I wonder why that could be ), to support what you are saying...

Beyond that bit, it mainly talked about the expectations of a player within a system of challenge, and design methodologies to implement that optimizes a player-driven experience.

I would say story is/can be more important than gameplay for the same reason that story in movies is generally more important than special effects, you get invested, you actually give a shit about the characters, under the logic that good gameplay always passes a good story is simply not true.

My favorite example for this kind of thing is final fantasy X, its gameplay particularly combat was stellar, and really fun, but i found myself having pretty much no motivation to continue despite the fun combat because most of the characters were extremely unlikable (especially the protagonist) several plot holes/(i guess they would qualify it more as incredible stupidity on part of the heroes rather than plot holes)and so on.

It simply comes down to motivation for playing, some games that lack story do manage to provide motivation for playing,but a truly terrible story (note terrible, not non-existent) can kill this motivation just as fast if not as fast as bad gameplay design.

*Edit

On further reflection i also find that gameplay is a bit like fashion, after a long period of time certain aspects of gameplay can become dated (i say can because sometimes gameplay evolves in a way that is regarded as fairly negative *looks at QTEs, and excess of Call of Duty Clones etc) while a great story generally never becomes considered less great over time, though certain aspects of that story might become dated with references to its subject matter, I cannot think of that many games that were considered to having great stories then years later felt the story aged poorly (personal experience i know, if anyone can think of any feel free to list them)

I think this is something that games will have in common with books and movies. Old books and movies (classics IE: Citizen kane, To kill a mockingbird, Heart of Darkness etc) are dated by their subject matter, effects etc, and yet are still considered great because of their story, and i feel that games are much the same way.

 

[Mikeyfell]

story, It doesn't matter how shitty everything else is. If you're engaged in what's happening you'll keep playing.

Or at least I will.

And then again there are games that do just fine with no story at all.
Xcom Enemy Unknown is what I'm playing right now and there's no story to be found.
Or Mirror's Edge is amazing and the story's shit
Left 4 Dead 2

As long as something in the game is good it's worth playing
I find my self coming back to the games with good stories more often though.

I played Walking Dead, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fallout Etc... multiple times over, so story wins for me hands down.

 

[Fipback]

Gameplay comes over story for me, although both are pretty important to most games. That said, I pour most of my free time into Pokémon so WHAT DO I KNOW.

 

[Reven]

Fail button press is fail, accidentally hit reply on myself rather than edit, moderators please delete and sorry

 

[Souplex]

You can have a game without story, you can't have a game without gameplay.
This is why Pac-Man is a good game, while Heavy Rain is not.

 

[Reven]

You can have a game without story, you can't have a game without gameplay.
This is why Pac-Man is a good game, while Heavy Rain is not.

But the walking dead is considered to be a very good or even great game, (and being roughly as complex as Pac-Man) So wouldn't that simply demonstrate that a bad story can hurt a game more than gameplay? and thus be as important if not more so?

 

[CloudAtlas]

Is Story more important then Gameplay?

The combination matters. An engaging story can motivate you to continue playing despite mediocre gameplay, and vice versa, but there are individually different limits to what everyone is willing to put up with.

 

[Risingblade]

Both are equally important but I'm going to have to give it to game play. It's easier to forgive a game that has a horrible story if the game play is great. Considering that you can now watch let's plays on youtube you don't even need to play the game yourself to see the story therefore there's no reason to buy it or even play it yourself.

 

[bug_of_war]

Gameplay comes over story for me, although both are pretty important to most games. That said, I pour most of my free time into Pokémon so WHAT DO I KNOW.

HEY! Pokemon may copy paste their storyline from game to game, but that's because the story works damn it! haha.

Yeah what most people said, different games have different strengths. Mass Effect and Halo hooked most of their players with the story, PROTOTYPE and Just Cause 2 got their hooks in with gameplay.