Is there any REASON gay marriage is wrong?

[King Toasty]

I be amazed, this is an internet discussion on gay marriage and it's been fairly intelligent. Groundhog/gopher discussion aside. The Escapist boards never fail to amaze.

OT: Mostly, the Bible said so. But the amount of people against, has been dropping sharply. So it'll be interesting to see where it ends up.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

Just to make sure, you are aware that the Bible endorses various things that we in the modern age think are terrible (like Slavery). Maybe it's time God sent down another book, maybe with some updated and clarified language to make sure we get the message this time. You know, if he actually cares that much about people following his word to the letter.

He did send down another book, some 1600 years ago. He gave it to some Arabs out in the desert and they decided to make this new religion called Islam out of it. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty underground right now.

OK, this is a tangent and total flamebait, but I honestly find the Quran (forget where the ' goes) to be more valid than the torah (old testament for you christians) or bible. The torah was supposedly found on some mountain in the middle east, the bible is the supposed word of someone who was centuries dead when it got around to being written, wheras the Quran is the words of someone who was alive at the time of writing. Not that I believe in Islam or anything but out of those three, I personally find the Quran to have more validity than the other books.

If we're really going into tangent and flamebait territory, I'd be more willing to worship Aslan than I would any of the deities of the Abrahamic religions.

 

[ImmortalDrifter]

Those people from the abusive relationship example don't just suddenly think "wow guys are assholes...I wonder how women are. Imma go find out!" like it's some sudden switch. A lot of them have that tendency towards members of their own sex already there, it just took the bad experience to make them actually consider it.

But how can you be sure? You're evaluating peoples thoughts in a situation you haven't been in, I find it hard to find this argument credible.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Now, if your doing some Valentine's thing, yeah sure have a guy give another guy a card, why the hell not, but it's not like they need to start making out or even holding hands, it's just a small gesture.

Why shouldn't homosexuals enjoy the same freedoms a straight couple has? Does two men holding hands really bother you that much?

 

[King Toasty]

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

Just to make sure, you are aware that the Bible endorses various things that we in the modern age think are terrible (like Slavery). Maybe it's time God sent down another book, maybe with some updated and clarified language to make sure we get the message this time. You know, if he actually cares that much about people following his word to the letter.

He did send down another book, some 1600 years ago. He gave it to some Arabs out in the desert and they decided to make this new religion called Islam out of it. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty underground right now.

OK, this is a tangent and total flamebait, but I honestly find the Quran (forget where the ' goes) to be more valid than the torah (old testament for you christians) or bible. The torah was supposedly found on some mountain in the middle east, the bible is the supposed word of someone who was centuries dead when it got around to being written, wheras the Quran is the words of someone who was alive at the time of writing. Not that I believe in Islam or anything but out of those three, I personally find the Quran to have more validity than the other books.

If we're really going into tangent and flamebait territory, I'd be more willing to worship Aslan than I would any of the deities of the Abrahamic religions.

Wrong. The Vikings had the best heaven: Drink and feast all day, kill each other at night. Come back to life and repeat.

Jokes aside, I've never thought of either standpoints before: Yeah, the Qu'ran WAS written at the time of Muhammad, and Aslan is only slightly less believable than the Abrahamic religions. Good points, you two. But remember: Aslan, and Narnia, stems from Lewis' Christian faith. So... it's pretty much the same thing. With lions.

 

[Harry Mason]

The whole "'Marriage' means a union between a man and a woman, so we should have equal rights but just change the name" argument is the best I've heard, but it still rings incredibly insincere. Anyone who seriously believes that marriage has "been the same for hundreds of years" wasn't paying attention during history class.

"Marriage" used to be between a man and his chattel. Then Women became recognized as human beings. Then "marriage" was between a white man and a white woman. After which other races were recognized as being human. THEN marriage was between a man and a woman of any race, so long as they were the both same race. After which the races were acknowledged as being equal.

We've been dancing this same "MARRIAGE IS THIS" dance for hundreds of years, and equal rights for gays is LONG overdue. The argument that it will lead to *cough* "animal husbandry" is FUCKING STUPID.

Believing that marriage hasn't or shouldn't change is right up there with being angry because a woman isn't offered with a fucking DOWRY.

I stand right beside my gay brothers and sisters as their token straight kid, and if there was a war to fight to end near-sighted bigotry, I would be on the front lines, sword unsheathed and gleaming, screaming "FUH THE KWEEUHS!"

 

[ReservoirAngel]

Those people from the abusive relationship example don't just suddenly think "wow guys are assholes...I wonder how women are. Imma go find out!" like it's some sudden switch. A lot of them have that tendency towards members of their own sex already there, it just took the bad experience to make them actually consider it.

But how can you be sure? You're evaluating peoples thoughts in a situation you haven't been in, I find it hard to find this argument credible.

I find it hard to find your argument credible when you said people magically turn homosexual after getting slapped around by their spouse a little.

Unless you, or someone you know, has first hand experience of randomly forming an attraction to members of your/their gender after receiving a backhand to the face or two, I simply have to call your argument illegitimate.

 

[GenericPCUser]

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

Just to make sure, you are aware that the Bible endorses various things that we in the modern age think are terrible (like Slavery). Maybe it's time God sent down another book, maybe with some updated and clarified language to make sure we get the message this time. You know, if he actually cares that much about people following his word to the letter.

He did send down another book, some 1600 years ago. He gave it to some Arabs out in the desert and they decided to make this new religion called Islam out of it. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty underground right now.

OK, this is a tangent and total flamebait, but I honestly find the Quran (forget where the ' goes) to be more valid than the torah (old testament for you christians) or bible. The torah was supposedly found on some mountain in the middle east, the bible is the supposed word of someone who was centuries dead when it got around to being written, wheras the Quran is the words of someone who was alive at the time of writing. Not that I believe in Islam or anything but out of those three, I personally find the Quran to have more validity than the other books.

The Torah originated as history for the ancient Jews (Pretty much everything after Genisis)showing how the ancient kings of Isreal came to be, and remembering their history as slaves and how they had to fight for everything they had. They masked it as religion, but that was to help spread the word to other Jews, and to teach basic morality (and do away with human sacrifices which were oh so popular at the time.)

The Bible is the Torah + A bunch of other religions or myths added in to make it seem more appealing to more people, and plenty of clauses and loopholes to allow as much wiggle room as possible to those in charge.

The Koran (Quran) is a fix for the Bible, because Christians (at the time) took the faith all the way out into left field when they made it.

 

[GenericPCUser]

Now, if your doing some Valentine's thing, yeah sure have a guy give another guy a card, why the hell not, but it's not like they need to start making out or even holding hands, it's just a small gesture.

Why shouldn't homosexuals enjoy the same freedoms a straight couple has? Does two men holding hands really bother you that much?

It doesn't bother me, but wars aren't won overnight. Start with baby steps.

 

[AWDMANOUT]

I don't think it's morally wrong, but I think it's gross. Which makes it wrong in my eyes.

Personally of course.

Captcha: you're jeredus
I would take offense to that, except I'm pretty sure jeredus is not a real word you stupid captcha.

 

[Duskflamer]

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

Just to make sure, you are aware that the Bible endorses various things that we in the modern age think are terrible (like Slavery). Maybe it's time God sent down another book, maybe with some updated and clarified language to make sure we get the message this time. You know, if he actually cares that much about people following his word to the letter.

He did send down another book, some 1600 years ago. He gave it to some Arabs out in the desert and they decided to make this new religion called Islam out of it. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty underground right now.

OK, this is a tangent and total flamebait, but I honestly find the Quran (forget where the ' goes) to be more valid than the torah (old testament for you christians) or bible. The torah was supposedly found on some mountain in the middle east, the bible is the supposed word of someone who was centuries dead when it got around to being written, wheras the Quran is the words of someone who was alive at the time of writing. Not that I believe in Islam or anything but out of those three, I personally find the Quran to have more validity than the other books.

If we're really going into tangent and flamebait territory, I'd be more willing to worship Aslan than I would any of the deities of the Abrahamic religions.

Wrong. The Vikings had the best heaven: Drink and feast all day, kill each other at night. Come back to life and repeat.

Jokes aside, I've never thought of either standpoints before: Yeah, the Qu'ran WAS written at the time of Muhammad, and Aslan is only slightly less believable than the Abrahamic religions. Good points, you too. But remember: Aslan, and Narnia, stems from Lewis' Christian faith. So... it's pretty much the same thing. With lions.

Well by that note, what 'wouldn't' be improved with the addition of lions?

 

[King Toasty]

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

Just to make sure, you are aware that the Bible endorses various things that we in the modern age think are terrible (like Slavery). Maybe it's time God sent down another book, maybe with some updated and clarified language to make sure we get the message this time. You know, if he actually cares that much about people following his word to the letter.

He did send down another book, some 1600 years ago. He gave it to some Arabs out in the desert and they decided to make this new religion called Islam out of it. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty underground right now.

OK, this is a tangent and total flamebait, but I honestly find the Quran (forget where the ' goes) to be more valid than the torah (old testament for you christians) or bible. The torah was supposedly found on some mountain in the middle east, the bible is the supposed word of someone who was centuries dead when it got around to being written, wheras the Quran is the words of someone who was alive at the time of writing. Not that I believe in Islam or anything but out of those three, I personally find the Quran to have more validity than the other books.

If we're really going into tangent and flamebait territory, I'd be more willing to worship Aslan than I would any of the deities of the Abrahamic religions.

Wrong. The Vikings had the best heaven: Drink and feast all day, kill each other at night. Come back to life and repeat.

Jokes aside, I've never thought of either standpoints before: Yeah, the Qu'ran WAS written at the time of Muhammad, and Aslan is only slightly less believable than the Abrahamic religions. Good points, you too. But remember: Aslan, and Narnia, stems from Lewis' Christian faith. So... it's pretty much the same thing. With lions.

Well by that note, what 'wouldn't' be improved with the addition of lions?

...True. The best heaven is a mix of Narnia and Valhalla.

 

[spacecowboy86]

I thought about putting this in my initial post but couldn't think of how to word it just right.
I do not aprove of it, but realize not everyone is christian and have the right to believe in what they want. It's like having a friend, or in this case a fellow human being, who you see doing something you know is wrong but they won't listen to you. Now I, once again, find myself searching for a proper sentence to say "I care, but I know people won't understand why I care" because as a christian I'm just trying to prevent them from going to hell, but they don't believe in hell so... I don't know what to say.

Alright, that is a somewhat valid argument (I remember learning something at some point about how christians have an obligation to 'save' people. Granted I heard that mostly in that it was used as an excuse to wipe out entire civilizations in the Americas but I digress).

Here's the thing though, let's assume for the moment you're wrong. I know you believe you're right, I'm not saying you're not right. But for the sake of argument, let's say you're wrong. There is no God (or, there is a God but not the Christian God), there is no hell for 'sinners,' there is no 'heaven' for the faithful. If we accept this for the sake of argument, then what have you accomplished by forcing others to conform to your ideals? Nothing except making someone else's life miserable for something you thought was true.

Also, assuming everything in the bible is correct, did God not give us free will? Are we as humans not free to choose our own fate? Make all the arguments you like, do your best to convert people to christianity, but there is no reason to impede on the free will of people who a staunchly opposed to Christianity, and you'd have more success trying to save people who are less adamant about the issue.

I appreciate your sensitivity, but I'm an understanding man and I hope you don't read this as me blowing up in your face
you seem to have this idea that christians are all zealots. I tried to say I had trouble wording that sentence because even what I ended up submitting misses that I don't want to force it. I tried to use the example of watching a friend do something you think is wrong because thats is what its like. I personally would never force someone to believe in something they don't want to. That never truly saves people. I believe the only real way to save people is to let them do what they think is right first. I, as a christian, believe God will uphold his rules, and when sinners defy him they will not be happy people. Then when they are confused, hurt, and not sure where they went wrong, that is when you go in and talk to them. Tell them that the reason they screwed up their life was because they were constantly doing things that God thought was wrong. My christian fellowship, at least, does not have strict, intimidating, "we're better than you" ideals, we simply do the right thing, such as not drinking, lying, cheating, stealing, fighting, killing, or, for the sake of this thread, having homosexual sex.
A forceful zealot christian has misread the bible because they did not pick up on what you already have when you're not even a christain.
A really good christian simply tells people what they need to hear when they've hit rock bottom and need help. That will truly convert more souls than an inquisition ever will.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

Just to make sure, you are aware that the Bible endorses various things that we in the modern age think are terrible (like Slavery). Maybe it's time God sent down another book, maybe with some updated and clarified language to make sure we get the message this time. You know, if he actually cares that much about people following his word to the letter.

He did send down another book, some 1600 years ago. He gave it to some Arabs out in the desert and they decided to make this new religion called Islam out of it. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty underground right now.

OK, this is a tangent and total flamebait, but I honestly find the Quran (forget where the ' goes) to be more valid than the torah (old testament for you christians) or bible. The torah was supposedly found on some mountain in the middle east, the bible is the supposed word of someone who was centuries dead when it got around to being written, wheras the Quran is the words of someone who was alive at the time of writing. Not that I believe in Islam or anything but out of those three, I personally find the Quran to have more validity than the other books.

If we're really going into tangent and flamebait territory, I'd be more willing to worship Aslan than I would any of the deities of the Abrahamic religions.

Wrong. The Vikings had the best heaven: Drink and feast all day, kill each other at night. Come back to life and repeat.

That's pretty cool. However are you not aware that Aslan is a giant, talking LION? That is all different shades of awesome.

Plus I don't like killing or being killed, even if I was resurrected afterwards, so Valhalla doesn't sound too good to me. Narnia however? Fuck, someone find me that wardrobe!

Wow this is off-topic. haha

 

[WanderingFool]

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

Just to make sure, you are aware that the Bible endorses various things that we in the modern age think are terrible (like Slavery). Maybe it's time God sent down another book, maybe with some updated and clarified language to make sure we get the message this time. You know, if he actually cares that much about people following his word to the letter.

He did send down another book, some 1600 years ago. He gave it to some Arabs out in the desert and they decided to make this new religion called Islam out of it. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty underground right now.

OK, this is a tangent and total flamebait, but I honestly find the Quran (forget where the ' goes) to be more valid than the torah (old testament for you christians) or bible. The torah was supposedly found on some mountain in the middle east, the bible is the supposed word of someone who was centuries dead when it got around to being written, wheras the Quran is the words of someone who was alive at the time of writing. Not that I believe in Islam or anything but out of those three, I personally find the Quran to have more validity than the other books.

If we're really going into tangent and flamebait territory, I'd be more willing to worship Aslan than I would any of the deities of the Abrahamic religions.

BTW, did you guys know this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea#Overview]?

 

[King Toasty]

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

Just to make sure, you are aware that the Bible endorses various things that we in the modern age think are terrible (like Slavery). Maybe it's time God sent down another book, maybe with some updated and clarified language to make sure we get the message this time. You know, if he actually cares that much about people following his word to the letter.

He did send down another book, some 1600 years ago. He gave it to some Arabs out in the desert and they decided to make this new religion called Islam out of it. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty underground right now.

OK, this is a tangent and total flamebait, but I honestly find the Quran (forget where the ' goes) to be more valid than the torah (old testament for you christians) or bible. The torah was supposedly found on some mountain in the middle east, the bible is the supposed word of someone who was centuries dead when it got around to being written, wheras the Quran is the words of someone who was alive at the time of writing. Not that I believe in Islam or anything but out of those three, I personally find the Quran to have more validity than the other books.

If we're really going into tangent and flamebait territory, I'd be more willing to worship Aslan than I would any of the deities of the Abrahamic religions.

Wrong. The Vikings had the best heaven: Drink and feast all day, kill each other at night. Come back to life and repeat.

That's pretty cool. However are you not aware that Aslan is a giant, talking LION? That is all different shades of awesome.

Plus I don't like killing or being killed, even if I was resurrected afterwards, so Valhalla doesn't sound too good to me. Narnia however? Fuck, someone find me that wardrobe!

Wow this is off-topic. haha

But bro, you'd be an EXTREMELY DRUNK VIKING! FIGHTING LIONS!

Before the admins find this off-topic: This is an ironic parody of religious viewpoints on gay relationships.

 

[GenericPCUser]

For children's shows I think sexuality in general should be kept out of it. Why the hell would children that young know anything about what hetero/homosexuality is, let alone what party they belong to.

Now, if your doing some Valentine's thing, yeah sure have a guy give another guy a card, why the hell not, but it's not like they need to start making out or even holding hands, it's just a small gesture.

Sir the amount of respect you have earned from that statement cannot be properly expressed. That is exactly the way it is on both points. Lightly brushing on that topic i think gay characters in teen shows would be fantastic. It's the stage in peoples lives when sexuality comes into play, and where homophobic thoughts could be rectified easily.

Honestly, I think this could be brilliant for our future. I hate to say it, and I may have to hold back a gag as I do, but I think that teen Nickelodeon soap-opera "Degrassi" did it right. In the small portion I saw when I was walking throughout my house I was able to hear one of the characters finally confess his sexuality to a close friend, and while I hate the show with a burning passion, I think they excelled in tolerance. Now if only it wasn't so bad.

 

[King Toasty]

For children's shows I think sexuality in general should be kept out of it. Why the hell would children that young know anything about what hetero/homosexuality is, let alone what party they belong to.

Now, if your doing some Valentine's thing, yeah sure have a guy give another guy a card, why the hell not, but it's not like they need to start making out or even holding hands, it's just a small gesture.

Sir the amount of respect you have earned from that statement cannot be properly expressed. That is exactly the way it is on both points. Lightly brushing on that topic i think gay characters in teen shows would be fantastic. It's the stage in peoples lives when sexuality comes into play, and where homophobic thoughts could be rectified easily.

Honestly, I think this could be brilliant for our future. I hate to say it, and I may have to hold back a gag as I do, but I think that teen Nickelodeon soap-opera "Degrassi" did it right. In the small portion I saw when I was walking throughout my house I was able to hear one of the characters finally confess his sexuality to a close friend, and while I hate the show with a burning passion, I think they excelled in tolerance. Now if only it wasn't so bad.

I had to go wipe my mouth of bile, but after I read it again, I see you made a very good point. Now if only the Parental Advisory Council weren't a bunch of uber-biased nutjobs.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

Just to make sure, you are aware that the Bible endorses various things that we in the modern age think are terrible (like Slavery). Maybe it's time God sent down another book, maybe with some updated and clarified language to make sure we get the message this time. You know, if he actually cares that much about people following his word to the letter.

He did send down another book, some 1600 years ago. He gave it to some Arabs out in the desert and they decided to make this new religion called Islam out of it. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty underground right now.

OK, this is a tangent and total flamebait, but I honestly find the Quran (forget where the ' goes) to be more valid than the torah (old testament for you christians) or bible. The torah was supposedly found on some mountain in the middle east, the bible is the supposed word of someone who was centuries dead when it got around to being written, wheras the Quran is the words of someone who was alive at the time of writing. Not that I believe in Islam or anything but out of those three, I personally find the Quran to have more validity than the other books.

If we're really going into tangent and flamebait territory, I'd be more willing to worship Aslan than I would any of the deities of the Abrahamic religions.

Wrong. The Vikings had the best heaven: Drink and feast all day, kill each other at night. Come back to life and repeat.

That's pretty cool. However are you not aware that Aslan is a giant, talking LION? That is all different shades of awesome.

Plus I don't like killing or being killed, even if I was resurrected afterwards, so Valhalla doesn't sound too good to me. Narnia however? Fuck, someone find me that wardrobe!

Wow this is off-topic. haha

But bro, you'd be an EXTREMELY DRUNK VIKING! FIGHTING LIONS!

Before the admins find this off-topic: This is an ironic parody of religious viewpoints on gay relationships.

I don't like fighting. And if you've seen me drunk, you wouldn't want me anywhere near ANYTHING dangerous that could be a weapon. I've injured somebody with soap before, and you wanna give me a sword?

Plus Lions are too awesome to kill, hence my love of Aslan and all he stands for.