Is there any REASON gay marriage is wrong?

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Fetzenfisch

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Are there truly people here that think that marriage is a christian concept?been around before and and after all around the world. It indeed doesnt make sense to marry in a catholic ritual. But marriage is everything but an exclusive christian thing.
 

Lordpils

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Killing_Time said:
Marriage has always been a union between a man and a woman for thousands of years (mostly for paternal purposes). I have no problem if two men or two women want to have a special union of their own, but just don't call it marriage cause that's not what it is. Marriage is held by many to be a sacred tradition, and allowing homosexuals to use the word "marriage" for their unions devalues the whole concept of marriage for a lot of heterosexual couples. Besides, if homosexual relationships are by definition "different" or "alternative lifestyles" doesn't it make sense to call their unions something different then what "normal" unions are called?
That is incorrect actually marriage has been many things over the years including one man and many women, one man one woman and a mistress, one man one women and a harem and of course there's plenty of other ways marriage has existed. Marriage has been a sacred tradition and it has been a contract between two people (whether or not the two people being married agreed to it). There is nothing about gay marriage that devalues marriage except to people with a homophobic bent.
 

b3nn3tt

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Dreiko said:
My problem with gay marriage is not an ethical one or a moral one, it's in the semantics.



When your menu reads "grilled chicken" and the actual dish is grilled beef, regardless of how good the grilled beef tastes, regardless if it's better than the grilled chicken, it still is and can never actually BE grilled chicken.


Marriage is a union between a man and a woman. No matter how much they love each other or how much they deserve the same rights, two men/women will never be a man and a woman, thus can't get married.


Simple. No?
But definitions of words change all the time. Why couldn't the term marriage be broadened to include homosexual unions as well?
 

Killing_Time

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The Cadet said:
Killing_Time said:
Marriage has always been a union between a man and a woman for thousands of years (mostly for paternal purposes). I have no problem if two men or two women want to have a special union of their own, but just don't call it marriage cause that's not what it is. Marriage is held by many to be a sacred tradition, and allowing homosexuals to use the word "marriage" for their unions devalues the whole concept of marriage for a lot of heterosexual couples. Besides, if homosexual relationships are by definition "different" or "alternative lifestyles" doesn't it make sense to call their unions something different then what "normal" unions are called?
Wut

Okay, let's get shit straight here. Marriage has been between a man and a woman for several thousand years, but it has NOT been the way you're thinking. This whole "man and woman join in love and spend the rest of their lives together" concept is actually very new to any society (and many still do not have it today). In fact, the marriage that the old testament describes is anything but that. Check it out... If you're too lazy, I'll sum it up below.

No, marriage "as it has been for thousands of years" has already been redefined once. It has been turned into, more or less, "two people (or "a man and a woman") joining together in love to spend the rest of their life together and be a family". What WAS it? Well, think about it for a minute. In the ancient days, women did not have rights. They didn't speak out, they didn't work, they certainly didn't vote... Why would the single most important decision of their life, and a decision that can be extremely profitable for their family, be left up to them?

Marriage before the enlightenment was not what you consider it today, with or without the homos. It was "A father gives his daughter (property) to another man as a wife (also property!) in return for some form of reimbursement". This definition is REINFORCED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. We got rid of that definition a few hundred years ago at the very earliest and replaced it with the more modern definition. Why we can take such a drastic step then, but now we can't take the simple step of replacing "man and woman" with "two people" is beyond me.

EDIT: HAY PLUVIA HOW'S IT GOING
I never mentioned "love" once in my post. Nor did I mention that marriage was always a "happily ever after" affair. Until recently it was primarily used for two things, to carry on the family line and for a stability in paternity. Even if it was unfair and in favor of the male, it was still seen as an important bond between a man and a woman (sometimes multiple women, but that's a whole other subject). My point is that gays should be allowed to be together in a union, but just call it something different. BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT! As long as there's a title difference, then there can be some distinction between the two types of unions. The way I see it, if they simply gave gay couples the same rights but just called their unions by different names everyone would be happy. Homosexuals would get their equal rights and heterosexuals would be able to hold on to a very old tradition that just happens to mean a lot to them. No harm, no foul. Oh, but they should come up with a better name then "civil unions", maybe that bland label they've been given is why gays are so outraged by this whole debate.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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b3nn3tt said:
Dreiko said:
My problem with gay marriage is not an ethical one or a moral one, it's in the semantics.



When your menu reads "grilled chicken" and the actual dish is grilled beef, regardless of how good the grilled beef tastes, regardless if it's better than the grilled chicken, it still is and can never actually BE grilled chicken.


Marriage is a union between a man and a woman. No matter how much they love each other or how much they deserve the same rights, two men/women will never be a man and a woman, thus can't get married.


Simple. No?
But definitions of words change all the time. Why couldn't the term marriage be broadened to include homosexual unions as well?

It could in theory, it just can't be forced to change because people desire it to. You can't just wake up one day and add meanings to words or concepts that weren't there before and are somewhat contrary to the already established ones and expect people to just go along with it, these things slowly happen with the pass of time, you can't speed them up.
 

ThreeWords

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Johnnyallstar said:
I disagree with using the term "marriage" because the idea of "marriage" as it is has been the same for thousands of years, and now we have to change it because... why exactly? Because less than 10% of the worlds population demands a change of ideas? What's next? "Marriage" to a goat? "Marriage" to your left hand? Once you break the defined nature of the language, where does it end?

Why not civil union? Why not a whole new word? Why must it be "marriage?"

By the way, that's Elton John's opinion, as well as mine. I'm not against civil unions, but I am against using the term "marriage."
I was with you, up till the point where you backed yourself up with a celebrity. We're dealing with real reasons here, and "Elton John Says so" is on a par with "my God says so"
 

LordSnakeEyes

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Well, there are points and counter-points I can make for/against gay marriage.
But being a bit of a troll, I'll start with against XD

1- Against: What was the first reason behind marriage? (If anyone says "love", no offense; they are full of it) the prime reason was the making/raising of a child. IE the perpetuation of the human race. A gay couple, logically, can't partake in the first of the two parts of this process due to the lack of either a uterus or the necessary sperm. (I see you angrily getting ready to scream "sperm bank" and to this I answer a vehement "No" because of point #3)

2- For: There is always adoption, in all fairness, if you can't make your own, take the one someone else didn't want to/couldn't keep. Honestly a great point for, as there exist to many parentless children out there.

3- Against: Well, in what I am pretty sure is psych 101 (or psych some level), a child, be it boy or girl, requires a good role-model (bear with me on this one) for *both* sexes. That being the case, a gay couple, no matter how well-intentionned, can't ever give that child an appropriate role model for the other sex. Picture this; a couple of women get/raise a child, let's say a boy, although it's nice to say something along the lines of "sexual equality means there isn't a set role for both sexes blabla..." realistically, the boy will never truly internalize the norms of how appropriate sexual behaviour on a man's part is ideally portrayed. Meaning, although one of his... mothers (?) may be butch and so forth, he still will never truly, as both a young child and later on as an adult, get a firm grasp of what is truly expected of him as a man in things pertaining to both childbirth, appropriate conduct during courtship and the maintaining of the genetic ideal (more on that in point 5)

4- For: Simple point; It'll go miles towards making a more accepting and less bigotted society. Because when the child under such rearing conditions understands the true differences between the sexes, other than in actual childbirth, he may notice that in truth, no sex in inherently superior. This will probably make him more open-minded about other subjects such as race-relations and religion (don't get me started there though, I beg of you) to the point where he may become an accepting individual who judges people by individual merit as opposed to well... you get the point...

5- Against: (Disclaimer: I use the Hunting and Gathering dynamic of family in this argument and the next, also I attempt to offend no one as I do believe both sexes can do most of what the other can do. By the way, I don't actually *know* this stuff, it's mostly speculation that I engage in.)
Another simple one that I have somewhat tip-toed around up to now, this one may sound kind of over-zealous, but it's one that many people will think... A boy raised by two women will almost inevitably end up "effeminate". What I mean by this, however, is that the odds are that the boy will try and emulate the more "fatherly" of both patents which, in a straight couple, will lead him to try and play sports, the value of physical labor and eventually, as he gets older, he will want to learn the skills his mother can teach him due to simple practicality. Of course this only applies to a boy raised by two women etc...

6- For: Counter-point to #5; in this day and age, no job is mutually exclusive to either sex, a boy raised by two women (maintaining my previous example) who would be encouraged to be athletic because, let's face it, any parent worth their salt will at least encourage physical health, a hard days work and so forth whereas a girl raised by 2 men will be taught by one of the men how to cook (because if neither knows how to cook, we are looking at a poor example of a couple...) while probably still internalizing the previously mentionned "man's values" thus leading to a well-rounded individual without necessity of the second sexed role-model.

7- Against: This one isn't mine so much as one I've heard before, so please don't get as mad as I was when I heard it; A boy raised by two men will imitated his dads and become gay as well, which would only encourage more boys to become homosexuals in the long run.
Same for a girl raised by to mothers; she'll see men as disposable and become a lesbian.
A rebutal to this could be that(FYI; I cannot truly know and am speaking more out of mouth-to-ear knowledge, some of which may be wrong) being gay is not a matter of choice, in fact, it would seem it's somehow, I presume, genetic as opposed to developped by nurturing conditions. However, the argument here is reliant on the Nurture aspect of the Nature vs Nurture debate, an argument for another day...

8- For: I'll end on this one, which is aimed more to the over-zealous straight crowd; if you make gay marriage allowed, this would not only mean that society accepts homosexuality as less of a stigma, allowing those in denial to come out, it would also allow the closetted ones a way to be lumped together. Thus, if in fact, they are what what the biggots would call a "lesser branch of humanity" the basic lesson of Darwinism would imply that, since they can't procreate, they wouldn't be able to "perpetuate their kind" and eventually would die out. Whereas keeping the whole biggoted view would only encourage them to hide in a "normal marriage" and allow them to make children who (if being gay is truly a genetic predisposition) will in turn either carry a "latent gay gene" or outwardly turn out to be gay.

In conclusion, although you haven't noticed, I'm for gay marriage. It's a great idea. Plus, if there is a hateful close-minded biggot out there who would disagree with me, read point #8 and shut up, even *your kind* will be appeased by the logic.
Final point, is anyone wants to imply that I may be preaching against, I mark that not only do I support quite a few friends of mine who are gay and coming out/already out, I was merely playing "the devil's advocate" with all the against points because a wise man once to me; True Wisdom Is Being Able To See Both Sides Of An Argument.
 

b3nn3tt

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Dreiko said:
b3nn3tt said:
Dreiko said:
My problem with gay marriage is not an ethical one or a moral one, it's in the semantics.



When your menu reads "grilled chicken" and the actual dish is grilled beef, regardless of how good the grilled beef tastes, regardless if it's better than the grilled chicken, it still is and can never actually BE grilled chicken.


Marriage is a union between a man and a woman. No matter how much they love each other or how much they deserve the same rights, two men/women will never be a man and a woman, thus can't get married.


Simple. No?
But definitions of words change all the time. Why couldn't the term marriage be broadened to include homosexual unions as well?

It could in theory, it just can't be forced to change because people desire it to. You can't just wake up one day and add meanings to words or concepts that weren't there before and are somewhat contrary to the already established ones and expect people to just go along with it, these things slowly happen with the pass of time, you can't speed them up.
Very true, these things do take time. But don't you think a really good first step would be to allow gay couples to form a union and call it marriage? Not only that, but to also afford them the same rights as a married couple
 

orangeban

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Dorkamongus said:
orangeban said:
Dorkamongus said:
orangeban said:
Apoligies if you can't be bothered to answer this, but is Mormon the religion branch which believes you become angels if your good enough after death? Because if so, you are definetly one of the most awesome religions I've heard of.

My captcha included an accent on a letter, that's not fair :(
Short answer is yes. If you are good enough, you can indeed become angels after death. I'm not really comfortable discussing religion in a public setting. However, if you want me to explain further, I will try my best.
No, it's fine, don't do anything you don't want to. Just saying your religion sounds pretty cool. If I had to choose religion from a "who gives the best rewards" policy yours sounds pretty nice.
Heh, I can do you one better about this one then... There is a way (That I will not mention here, as it will get me flamed so bad I'll have a nice tan) that God will actually raise you up to his own level, giving you all of his powers and knowledge. essentially, He makes you into a god yourself.
Dammit, I just realised that I probably won't be any gods favourite if I join there religion because of the benefits rather than out of belief. Oh wellz, back to atheism I go.
 

CrayKing

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Kagim said:
If by Gay marriage you mean homosexual couples having the right to demand any religious organization accept them under penalty of law then yeah, it's a bad thing, forcing a acceptance under penalty of law is not the way to do things in this case. Church and government should be separate.

(Note to the inevitable: Tax breaks for marriages apply under the principle that a couple is likely to spend more. As well since the income is combined the couple generally loses low income benefits (Hst, free medicare for example) so the tax break is meant to help off set this. A couple generally pays more tax then two single people and gets less in return, if any at all. This note is meant for the people who still think marriage tax breaks are a way to favor religious marriages.)

If you mean make it so Homosexuals couples can a) have every single right and privilege (tax benefits, adoption, whatever have you) as well as allow any church or organization who is willing to perform said ceremonies as well as always provide a legitimate third party service to perform the ceremonies. Then no, there is no problem. As long as the couple are responsible caring people they have every right to a family.
That was an aspect i didn't think of. I truly agree with those points

Just like you said, church and government should stay seperate, neither should impose upon the other. Marriage is very much a religious thing, and if the religion which they are going to be married in doesn't 'allow' homosexuals, then I don't think they should be able to get married. Mind you, that is only if said religion truly forbids homosexuals of course, and they should still have the right to be married in a courthouse, I think.
Just like you pointed out, they are entitled to the exact same rights as everyone else.

As to the OP's question: Gay marriage could only be wrong, if it is forced upon a church by the state. Otherwise, NO!
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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b3nn3tt said:
Dreiko said:
b3nn3tt said:
Dreiko said:
My problem with gay marriage is not an ethical one or a moral one, it's in the semantics.



When your menu reads "grilled chicken" and the actual dish is grilled beef, regardless of how good the grilled beef tastes, regardless if it's better than the grilled chicken, it still is and can never actually BE grilled chicken.


Marriage is a union between a man and a woman. No matter how much they love each other or how much they deserve the same rights, two men/women will never be a man and a woman, thus can't get married.


Simple. No?
But definitions of words change all the time. Why couldn't the term marriage be broadened to include homosexual unions as well?

It could in theory, it just can't be forced to change because people desire it to. You can't just wake up one day and add meanings to words or concepts that weren't there before and are somewhat contrary to the already established ones and expect people to just go along with it, these things slowly happen with the pass of time, you can't speed them up.
Very true, these things do take time. But don't you think a really good first step would be to allow gay couples to form a union and call it marriage? Not only that, but to also afford them the same rights as a married couple

Like I said, I have no ethical qualms, affording them the same rights is obviously a good thing. It would be a good thing for them but I have to consider how the older generations would feel, the ones totally set in their old ways and completely unacceptable of it. I feel the harm of completely destroying their world order is grander than the harm caused to gay people by calling their union something else.

We could just wait till they're all gone and we're at their place with our hopefully open(ish) minds and will to be tolerant.
 

Dragonclaw

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Such facisnation with what goes on in other people's bedrooms and in their homes where it doesn't concern them.

Protecting the "sanctity" of marriage?....lets see...they AREN'T making gay marriage MANDATORY LOL....our straight marraiges are still perfectly valid and legal. OK, someone I wasn't planning to marry got married too...good for them! There are LOTs of people I didn't want to marry...and several who I may have wanted to but wouldn't give me the time of day. It has absolutely NO affect on my marriage just because someone who engages in a kind of sex I don't prefer got married to someone who likes the same...again, there's LOTS of different bedroom kinks and I support some and avoid others...I just don't see why it should matter if those people get married.

Children? My wife and I have NO plans to have children. I have a son from a prior marriage and that's plenty for us...so kids were never a part of our marriage plan. As has been said in this thread numerous times, there's a lot more in people's choices to get married than just legitimizing children, and we don't dissalow infertile couples either.

God's will? The Bible had a lot of great teachings, mostly about being respectful to one another...but it's also got a lot that is simply irrelevant or just plain wrong (remember, bacon on a Friday is supposed to be punishable by hell!) We are supposed to have a separation between religion and government...sure, some of the obvious laws about killing, theft, and supposedly tollerance (though we haven't quite gotten that one right yet) overlap, but we can't force religion and one way of thinking on all people....We let athiests marry and the government has rules for couples who are married...so we need to remove the religious aspect from the argument...it ISN'T a religious sacrament any longer. Also, if churches wish to continue to have their say in politics they should pay taxes like the rest of us or STFU. They aren't going to force churches who dissaprove to hold ceremonies there any more than they force a Catholic church to marry a Jewish couple...

Protecting the species? Really? Again, gay marriage wouldn't be mandatory...the homosexuals who are in theior relationships NOW will no doubt continue to be gay right? I haven't seen anyone out there forcing straight people out of their homes and into gay relationships. The straight couples will continue to pump out children and grandchildren at rates that will make Idiocracy proud.
 

Angry_squirrel

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LordSnakeEyes said:
8- For: I'll end on this one, which is aimed more to the over-zealous straight crowd; if you make gay marriage allowed, this would not only mean that society accepts homosexuality as less of a stigma, allowing those in denial to come out, it would also allow the closetted ones a way to be lumped together. Thus, if in fact, they are what what teh biggots would call a "lesser branch of humanity" the basic lesson of Darwinism would imply that, since they can't procreate, they wouldn't be able to "perpetuate their kind" and eventually would die out. Whereas keeping the whole biggoted view would only encourage them to hide in a "normal marriage" and allow them to make children who (if being gay is truly a genetic predisposition) will in turn eitehr carry a "latent gay gene" or outwardly turn out to be gay.
I tip my hat to you sir, that point is a piece of sheer genius that should be explained to every homophobe.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Angry_squirrel said:
LordSnakeEyes said:
8- For: I'll end on this one, which is aimed more to the over-zealous straight crowd; if you make gay marriage allowed, this would not only mean that society accepts homosexuality as less of a stigma, allowing those in denial to come out, it would also allow the closetted ones a way to be lumped together. Thus, if in fact, they are what what teh biggots would call a "lesser branch of humanity" the basic lesson of Darwinism would imply that, since they can't procreate, they wouldn't be able to "perpetuate their kind" and eventually would die out. Whereas keeping the whole biggoted view would only encourage them to hide in a "normal marriage" and allow them to make children who (if being gay is truly a genetic predisposition) will in turn eitehr carry a "latent gay gene" or outwardly turn out to be gay.
I tip my hat to you sir, that point is a piece of sheer genius that should be explained to every homophobe.

I don't know about that, his point while certainly valid opens the door for a gay adoption argument, which although is a whole other can of worms is certainly relevant to his logic.
 

thelastgentleman

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b3nn3tt said:
thelastgentleman said:
b3nn3tt said:
thelastgentleman said:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/q6q2180250341315/

I'm just going to leave this here...Doesnt really have to do with marriage but does explain alot

Just going to put this out there...if your gay blame your mom. SCIENCE DOES NOT LIE!!! (often)
A buddy of mine is actually heading this up at a local University its really interesting. Basically stress hormones mostly IGg are passed from a mother's placenta to her child. Depending on her environment this could alter the child's codon structure to either A. Alter Phenotype, but keep Genotype (i.e look like a girl but really be a man) or B. Change the chemical structure of the brain to well...like men. Most data comes from the U.S and Ireland during drought and famine times, but it consists of statistics stating that when food and supply shortages are prevelant more gay individuals are produced therefore lightening up the population. Sooo...yeah this might make a few people rage but, meh read it for yourselves. There is a lot more to it but unless someone asks ill just leave it at this.
Just from reading the abstract of that paper your argument seems flawed

For males, neither between-family nor within-family analyses revealed a maternal stress effect for either sexual orientation or childhood gender nonconformity
There are also a few problems with the methodology; self-report is not the best way to measure stress, and the stress reported for the heterosexual sibling were done from memory, which is even less accurate

OT: Can't think of any feasible reason why gay marriage wouldn't be ok
First the article is not the exact research its only a sample there are plenty of other papers out right now (in know the medical journal just recently published one) I just dont feel like finding them. Second it wasnt an argument? I wasn't putting a counterpoint to anyone's statement soo....ummm im sorry you disagree?? Its just a recent breakthrough in science and is being taught in neuro classes all across the states. If you feel it is wrong then i suggest you do your own research to oppose it.
Seemed like you were putting forward an argument, sorry if I misunderstood you. I was just pointing out methodological flaws in that study. There may well be more that are investigating the same thing, but if they're employing the same methodology then there will be flaws in those studies too
Oh no Im sorry the study follows National family records and birth Certificates of individuals who have claimed to be homosexual. In the U.S it would be the Census for the past 40 years in Ireland umm...im not too sure im not familiar with the area, but i would assume they would have a similar data base.
 

Therumancer

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kidigus said:
(Before reading, please note that I AM in favor of gay marriage, in case you're very thick and don't get that right away)

You might hear people go on about how "Gay marriage is wrong", and "How it shoud be illegal" and so on. But I've yet to hear an objective reason for the case. They sometimes try to justify their position with "It would hurt regular marriage", but this is far fetched at best and a flat out lie at worst.

Fortunately these forums tend to be pretty open-minded on the matter, but if you happen to disagree with me, I'd very much like to hear a good, solid, factual reason to support your position.

EDIT: Lol, I finaly caught on to the error in the title X). I originally wanted it to say "would be" instead of "is" but forgot to delete the "be".
Gays can and have always been able to get married. It's all about the legal recognition of marriage. Let's be honest, I am anti-gay men, but if I wasn't I'd still oppose this. As it is I have few problems with Lesbians, yet I don't think they should have legally recognized marriages either.

Don't let the gay rights movement BS you into thinking that this is about love, or some kind of basic human right. The entire issue revolves entirely around money and benefits. While not explained in detail in law, the reasons why people get tax breaks for being married is the presumption that they are going to have and raise children afterwards. Making this easier is what those benefits are for. Homosexuals will never bear children, no matter what they might feel for each other, and if they choose to adopt there are already programs in place to help adoptive parents (people taking in foster kids for example wind up receiving checks from the goverment, leading to some of the nastiest rackets out there, even though the system does work as intended sometimes... the point simply being that there is compensation inherant in this kind of system).

One of the reasons why there is so much waffling on the issue of gay marriage, with states and politicians going back and forth, is because even those who support the principle, don't want to pay the cost when they figure out the racket. Homosexuals are a small minority of people, but especially at a time when most states are drowning under debt, all those people suddenly getting tax breaks hurts the bottom line. Especially when you consider that there is no justification for giving these people those benefits (as they were intended), most leaders don't want to pay that bill or have to raise everyone's taxes in order to cover that. It's one of those things that sounds like a wonderful political position, to garner left wing support UNTIL you see the bill.

Now, understand also that the "other" benefits of Marriage are BS. Like it or not, society has been working on that problem for a while. Nowadays most hospitals and other facilities will allow a "life partner" to attend the ill just like a spouse for example.


All this aside though, the main point of marriage has always been simply for two people to declare a union and themselves "off limits" to others who are interested. Nothing prevents two homosexuals from exchanging vows before the authority of their choice, and wearing rings. Functionally, marriage, as it has existed before all of the politics, comes down to community acceptance and whether people acknowlege the couple as off limits to being sought as mates. Whether the rest of the gay community chooses to accept this and respect the vows is entirely their own social issue, and has absolutly nothing to do with goverment recognition. All Uncle Sam can do is change your tax paperwork so your cut to him is a little smaller.


Despite my less than politically correct stance on it, gay rights is an *entirely* differant issue from gay marriage with far differant issues at stake. It's just that the two are politically tied together, and it's done intentionally. If your a gay right supporter, it can be hard to say you support one and not the other when they try and tie them together.