Because for a visual medium, there is an obsession with talking through fights to illustrate what people are feeling. It is one of the weird characteristics of anime that is fucking everywhere.
Oh, I know anime characters love howling their motivations to the sky, but I was wondering specifically about the frequency of the "I'm not holding back" thing.
It's like the writer of the first action anime had just had his mind utterly blown by that "I'm not left handed either" scene in Princess Bride and it's been considered a core element of anime ever since or something.
I figure its about dragging out fight scenes. That's how Dragonball Z could have three episodes of three separate fights against Freeza while he's holding back and waiting for Goku to show up.
And your latter point. While visually distinct, a lot of anime series are extremely derivative animation wise, so a lot of fight scenes go through the motions until the inevitable "power up I'm not holding back!" sequence begins.
I was about to come back here with a link to better fight scene, but I couldn't find it, so I have to describe it to you. Naruto vs Haku. Spesifically the last minutes of it when Naruto goes full on berserk.
Naruto attacks
Haku avoids and counterattacks
Naruto gets hit but brushes it off as nothing
Naruto strikes back
Haku barely dodges and tries to counterstrike
Haku misses and tries to gain distance
Naruto grabs Haku and sends him flying
There. That was a good fight scene. It was well animated, it wasn't too long and it was entertaining to watch.
Its well animated but its the same damn thing as most anime fights, there is nothing original about what is going on and nothing actually matters much untill someone wins.
In the end it really feels like filler content because of how shallow it is (its all just shit to look cool and flashy).
You could totally have something like this but you never do
You never have the characters actually struggle to do their thing, keep their balance, etc... , its all just one punches and the enemy either dodges with super reflexes or blocks with some magical force that makes the punch seem like it was thrown by a two year old.
And then to top it off (but this is only for the really poor anime where one wins because of will power, it doesnt matter that the other guy is still in good condition and the other is a broken mess, the one that wants to win more or has a noble cause WILL win.
But that example posted from Cowboy Bebop was actually good. The viewer could very easily tell what was going on and every blow carried weight.
The thing with fight scenes is that the best way to make them good and impactful is making sure that the rest of the show has informed me that something important is going on. I obviously cannot judge whether this is the case here.
Otherwise it should look interesting. Actual fighting is ussually a rather clumsy, sluggish and unpleasant affair. Making a fight look like that takes both skill and restraint. It's the latter that this seems to mostly lack. I mean, if somebody outclasses somebody else like this, there wouldn't be a minute long fight where the weaker charactar gets ragdolled, unless the intent of the stronger one was just to hurt the weaker one. Everything after 0:32 was just the girl having fun at the guys expense. The scene would have achieved the same effect if they had just stopped there with him on the ground and beaten. Now continuing to punch after a charactar is beaten can work:
Jon Snow kept on punching Ramsey, long after Ramsey had been on the ground and incapacitated. This makes sense though as Jon was very angry at the guy for murdering his little brother and being a generally cruel and nasty person amongst other things.
In that example there was emotional build-up to beating the shit out of somebody beyond what was needed. The example of the video above has a charactar nearly killing another and hurting him quite a bit after which she declares she isn't actually interested in hurting him. The hell, man?
Now I said it should look interesting which doesn't neccesarily mean looking realistic or gritty or what have you. It could just look cool. In that department this gets a solid 6/10. A pass but only as relatively unimportant filler. It would be better if I could tell what was going on more. Where the charactars are, etc.
AAAARGH!!! By the bloody blazes, why can't anime characters just shut up.
There is one movie genre that understood a good fight scene needs absolutely nothing else except tension - the western. Barely anything transpires in a duel, except for two men staring at each others' faces. Look at this scene, barely a word is spoken. But that doesn't even matter because the western is the most visual movie genre out there; everything is shown instead of told.
Anime on the other hand just doesn't get it, and time after time ruin everything with their inability to use restraint with the dialogues. That is just so sad because animation can be used to create marvelous cinema.
I've seen the episode. To give a little context to it: Both have a tattoo that gives them super powers. Only the boy doesn't know that's what his tattoo does yet. He got it out of the blue. The girl suddenly steals his phone and he chases after her. Then in that empty warehouse she attacks him saying he's in possession of a secret government weapon that she wants to retrieve. He's confused and doesn't want to fight. Until she draws blood, at which point he decides to start fighting back properly. Only he is still beaten easily because he doesn't know about the superpower thing yet.
The first episode showed 'potential', but sadly that's not saying much. A lot of anime show potential but then turn to overly used clich?'s or fan service. (I'm looking at you Big Order...) Here's hoping it will at least be half-decently entertaining to watch when I'm bored.
I'm pretty sure this is the best fight in anime ever.
Anyway, it is impossible to judge a fight without context. What makes fights impactful is the story behind them. Luke fighting Vader is meaningless, but Luke fighting his father to save his friends and defeat the Empire has meaning.
I was about to come back here with a link to better fight scene, but I couldn't find it, so I have to describe it to you. Naruto vs Haku. Spesifically the last minutes of it when Naruto goes full on berserk.
Yes, I agree, but it wasn't the most common type of fight scene in Naruto. How did you feel about Naruto versus Neji or whoever (someone that's not Sasuke)?
Smygskytt said:
AAAARGH!!! By the bloody blazes, why can't anime characters just shut up.
There is one movie genre that understood a good fight scene needs absolutely nothing else except tension - the western. Barely anything transpires in a duel, except for two men staring at each others' faces. Look at this scene, barely a word is spoken. But that doesn't even matter because the western is the most visual movie genre out there; everything is shown instead of told.
Anime on the other hand just doesn't get it, and time after time ruin everything with their inability to use restraint with the dialogues. That is just so sad because animation can be used to create marvelous cinema.
As a fan of no genre's (anything that isn't ruined with stupid dialogue and terrible execution), I can agree and disagree at the same damn time.
Usually westerns get straight to the point while not dumping in silly over-used jokes. It is all serious and never fails at creating tension, but they have the problem of looking and feeling very identical. This is where an anime's strength can be, but even some of my favourite anime pump in too much pointless dialogue. There are anime that know how to do it right though just so you know. Whether it's being mainly about the visuals, or the dialogue actually adds to the scene.
I'm guessing they were talking about the animation rather than the choreography. It was mostly smooth, and the screen shakes and sound effects made each blow feel nice and heavy. If anything, it was fairly well-presented. Also, as someone currently struggling to draw things from different perspectives, kudos on the different angle shots.
Still, that left arm looked kind of a funny, when it briefly went first-person.
AAAARGH!!! By the bloody blazes, why can't anime characters just shut up.
There is one movie genre that understood a good fight scene needs absolutely nothing else except tension - the western. Barely anything transpires in a duel, except for two men staring at each others' faces. Look at this scene, barely a word is spoken. But that doesn't even matter because the western is the most visual movie genre out there; everything is shown instead of told.
Anime on the other hand just doesn't get it, and time after time ruin everything with their inability to use restraint with the dialogues. That is just so sad because animation can be used to create marvelous cinema.
I definitely agree about the whole showing, not telling thing. One would think that in a country so in love with ambiguity writers would not feel so compelled to spell out every little thing. I wonder what it would look like if someone gave that western video the shonen anime treatment? I'd find that pretty funny.
Onsided, too much talking and they really needed that interior monologue to transfer him fearing death? - I suppose the target audience for this show is 13 or something...
Since Spike vs. Volaju is already here I give you Nanashi vs. Luo-Lang from Sword of the Stranger.
As a fan of no genre's (anything that isn't ruined with stupid dialogue and terrible execution), I can agree and disagree at the same damn time.
Usually westerns get straight to the point while not dumping in silly over-used jokes. It is all serious and never fails at creating tension, but they have the problem of looking and feeling very identical. This is where an anime's strength can be, but even some of my favourite anime pump in too much pointless dialogue. There are anime that know how to do it right though just so you know. Whether it's being mainly about the visuals, or the dialogue actually adds to the scene.
Yes Cowboy Bebop is fantastic, I wonder if its influences might have had something to do with it though (wink)?
As for HxH the Elder, that's actually the first scene I've seen of it. It is still massively front-heavy with exposition though. The movie I showed a clip from, Once Upon a Time in the West, has a similar reveal in the last duel. And that one was handled pretty much without dialogue too boot.
As for western duels in general, I'd much rather call them robust rather than formulaic. Justified is a TV-show that plays around with western tropes a lot, and I have to say that the times it plays it western is much better than when it plays it Hollywood. A showdown between two people that we know and recognize is inherently much more fulfilling than a scene where the hero dispatches ten unknown henchmen. That doesn't mean that all showdowns are gunfights though, a great scene for example transformed the smallholder and cattle baron into a small-time pot grower and a ruthless criminal matriarch - and she used poison. That show was always very clever. The show also gives us a clever explanation for why he became such a cowboy - we see him having a Tombstone movie poster in his apartment and we also see what a lousy father he had. No wonder he turned to movie heroes for his role models instead.
sageoftruth said:
I definitely agree about the whole showing, not telling thing. One would think that in a country so in love with ambiguity writers would not feel so compelled to spell out every little thing. I wonder what it would look like if someone gave that western video the shonen anime treatment? I'd find that pretty funny.
- "We have ten times as much force as you do, each. So why don't you just give up already. We have the Old Brown Coat Ability, you have nothing.
- "The Old Brown Coat is indeed powerful, but you are no match for me. I'm the one who has ten times as much force as you do, together. So you drop your guns instead."
- You are just bluffing, you can't possibly have that level of force. So just drop the gun and we'll kill quickly; you won't be feeling a thing. Refuse, and it won't be fast and easy. He he he"
- "I'll indeed defeat you all though; I'll even kill you because you pissed me off. I'm actually the wielder of the Mystic Harmonica Powers. No one has ever been able to survive it.
- " No, you can't be a carrier of the harmonica; they were all purged during the civil war. We'll shoot you now for lying to us. OLD BROWN COAT POWERS, UNLEASH!!! "
- "I'll kill you all then, since you insist I do so. MYSTIC HARMONICA POWERS, UNLEASH!!!"
Although I personally think a Shonen wouldn't be nearly as straight forward as my attempt at one is.
The reason i can't stand anime anymore is because how incestuous they all are, and I don't just mean sexually deviant now; I mean the way anime only gets inspiration through ripping off other anime. That is the root cause of anime's all problems.
Nah it's not a really good fight I mean it's not even a very good beatdown
When I think of really good fight scenes I think of stuff like this And this
Damn, you beat me to it! I'll need something to compensate. Ooh, I have a couple:
<spoiler=Chunl-Li vs. Vega>
Talk about the suspense; 6 year old me was not ready for any of that. The majority of fight scenes in well animated, drawn, and are framed perfectly. You can see every shot, and the fight don't outstay there welcome. It was much better than either live action movie adaptions, aside from Assassin's Fists, had to offer at all.
Yes Cowboy Bebop is fantastic, I wonder if its influences might have had something to do with it though (wink)?
As for HxH the Elder, that's actually the first scene I've seen of it. It is still massively front-heavy with exposition though. The movie I showed a clip from, Once Upon a Time in the West, has a similar reveal in the last duel. And that one was handled pretty much without dialogue too boot.
I have no doubt Cowboy Bebop did get inspiration from western films/shows, I was just wondering if you knew about it.
I used Hunter X Hunter to show a "dialogue that adds to the scene" example, because I believe all (or almost all) the dialogue during that fight served a purpose and didn't take away from it. See, I have no problem with scenes being dialogue heavy as long as all of it serves a purpose, so this where I meant I may disagree. Hunter X Hunter is in fact my favourite anime so far because it has some truly great moments throughout both visually and dialogue based.
As for western duels in general, I'd much rather call them robust rather than formulaic. Justified is a TV-show that plays around with western tropes a lot, and I have to say that the times it plays it western is much better than when it plays it Hollywood. A showdown between two people that we know and recognize is inherently much more fulfilling than a scene where the hero dispatches ten unknown henchmen. That doesn't mean that all showdowns are gunfights though, a great scene for example transformed the smallholder and cattle baron into a small-time pot grower and a ruthless criminal matriarch - and she used poison. That show was always very clever. The show also gives us a clever explanation for why he became such a cowboy - we see him having a Tombstone movie poster in his apartment and we also see what a lousy father he had. No wonder he turned to movie heroes for his role models instead.
I won't be watching the Once Upon a Time in the West scene because I was planning on seeing it again at some point, but I did watch the Justified scene.
They're robust when they create a different atmosphere and they're formulaic when it's predictable. There are 2 ways to see it as predictable, and when I mentioned it, I meant that it's usually in dry lands, with a few people or no one around, same men with grunge voices, holding guns to each-other or about to quickly shoot, and then it goes quiet (or already is).
No matter what, they run into these cliche's, even if they didn't do more than half of what I mentioned, they can still feel similar, same goes for anime. So all I'm really saying is both genre's can be unique in their own way, but are usually the same thing. You can bet many people don't think westerns know how to do it either.
Also, while a showdown between characters we know well can be more fulfilling, it doesn't automatically make it more entertaining. If I saw a battle between a hero and many unknown minions, and they happen to pull off many unique or clever moves while being shot in an artistic way, chances are it's going to stay with me longer than two known characters just having a simple dual. In fact, it's fulfilling in it's own right.
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