Is this sexist?

[Vault101]

Sexism in media isn't always a bad thing provided it is presented as a challenge for a female to overcome or deal with and not something for her to adhere by in order to succeed.

....well duh?

thats 1.depening on the setting and story and 2.weather or not the writer wants to have gender as a factor

stories need conflict, the conflict that can come from gender is a good one, however that doesnt mean there's a big list of things "women can;t do" in a story because its unrealistic, nor does gender always have to be a thing in a story

 

[Abomination]

[quote/]Yes they develop in different ways due to environment, religion, won and lost conflicts or any other potential anomaly the writer wishes to add to the world. The constant is that human females bare and raise children and that males are on average physically stronger and are not burdened with such "obligations" to continue society.

so if its pre industrial it has to follow those rules? I'm not sure I entrily agree but then as I said its prointless talking in borad terms...plus its fiction remember[/quote]I realise it is fiction but including humans and ignoring something that has had incredible impact upon our development as a species for all recorded history and by most (non-Genesis adhering) accounts at least 10,000 years longer is foolish. There needs to be a reason it is different from human history, what made it so the story didn't follow our footsteps?

An example I gave earlier was perhaps by giving females exclusive use of magic or making them similar to spiders in how females on average are considerably stronger than males - something needs to tip the balance of power.

depends compeltly on setting/story, I might roll my eyes of some slim woman takes down a heavyly muscled man one on one but agian the belivability of the setting/charachters varys

for example I recently read a comic called stitched, the first arc was a self ocntained story about a group of solders stranded in afghanistan being hunted by thease almost invulnerable zombie creatures...there were 3 american solders 1 male and 2 female who became stranded after the helicopter crashed, plus 3 male british SAS troops

your probably thinking female's don't serve on front lines, which is correct.However the presance of the female solders was not completly unrealistic (for a comic about stitch monsters that is) the first one I think was a pilot, I'm not even entirly sure she was supsoed to be assigned to that mission but she was at the last minute ,in the story she was a hardass prefessional...not better than the male solders, but not exactly worse eather given the situation. The second one wasn't suposed to be there at all...she was freinds with the pilot who managed to get her to come along since it was suposed to be a routine extraction (excpet the helicopter died)she is most definetly out of her depth in the situation (but had a few moments in the story)

anyway thats an exmaple of two different kinds of female charachter (female part not being essential) which is also not completly unbelivable in how they are implemented in the story[/quote]The pilot example is perfect as to how females excel in certain areas, women on average make better fighter pilots. I can not remember the exact reasoning but it had something to do with the age old stereotype of being able to multi-task better. Multi-tasking in 3 dimensional space is apparently - as one would imagine - incredibly important.

But a pilot being as capable in front-line combat as front-line combat specialists is a bit far-fetched ? especially if they are British SAS - ignoring that she is a woman at all. Again, reasons are required for things to be as they are. I just feel sexism is brushed aside often because of modern societal desires rather than being resolved in a practical manner within the fiction - something that isn't actually difficult to do.

 

[Robot Number V]

*snip*

Neither one of those are good examples of "weakened female characters". Neither character is weakened because of their gender. I'm fairly certain Katniss straight-up murders several people of either gender over the course of the first book, so obviously she can't be that weak or helpless. And about "The Last of Us"...Well, two things. For one, she's not helpless. She can take care of herself. But (2) even if she was helpless, it would probably be because she's a damn child in the middle of the zombie apocalypse, not because of her gender.

Putting someone in a situation they have no control over isn't sexist either.

I think you're reading too much into it.

Listen to this person. (S)He is very smart.

 

[Abomination]

Sexism in media isn't always a bad thing provided it is presented as a challenge for a female to overcome or deal with and not something for her to adhere by in order to succeed.

....well duh?

thats 1.depening on the setting and story and 2.weather or not the writer wants to have gender as a factor

stories need conflict, the conflict that can come from gender is a good one, however that doesnt mean there's a big list of things "women can;t do" in a story because its unrealistic, nor does gender always have to be a thing in a story

I do realise it's a bit of a "Well, duh" thing but I'm seeing more and more of females in media filling roles that would be incredibly impractical.

The writer should ALWAYS make gender a factor, it has to be. Like it or not but gender does have a massive impact on a character and a male character will react differently to a female character in certain situations just on the basis of their gender alone.

Brushing over a wonderful vessel for conflict does nothing but cheapen the artistic work. Not everything has to be about gender imbalance, of course, but it shouldn't just be flat out ignored.

 

[Vault101]

I realise it is fiction but including humans and ignoring something that has had incredible impact upon our development as a species for all recorded history and by most (non-Genesis adhering) accounts at least 10,000 years longer is foolish. There needs to be a reason it is different from human history, what made it so the story didn't follow our footsteps?

well it depends on the induvidual story/charachter again

[quote/]The pilot example is perfect as to how females excel in certain areas, women on average make better fighter pilots. I can not remember the exact reasoning but it had something to do with the age old stereotype of being able to multi-task better. Multi-tasking in 3 dimensional space is apparently - as one would imagine - incredibly important.

But a pilot being as capable in front-line combat as front-line combat specialists is a bit far-fetched ? especially if they are British SAS - ignoring that she is a woman at all. Again, reasons are required for things to be as they are. I just feel sexism is brushed aside often because of modern societal desires rather than being resolved in a practical manner within the fiction - something that isn't actually difficult to do.[/quote]
depends on what she was doing, its not like she was out wrestling bears alongside with them (there was no bear wrestling in the comic)...she was however a verygood and shot and actually played sniper for them and did her part in the action when the time came...

I get what your saying on one hand...that females being made unrealisticly powerful in certain situations..but that said I'm not going to accpet female charachters being shoved off into the sidelines in suport roles, as long as its not too far fetched for the setting I would have females having a central role in the action were it my story

[quote/]I do realise it's a bit of a "Well, duh" thing but I'm seeing more and more of females in media filling roles that would be incredibly impractical.[/quote]
examples?

[quote/]The writer should ALWAYS make gender a factor, it has to be. Like it or not but gender does have a massive impact on a character and a male character will react differently to a female character in certain situations just on the basis of their gender alone.[/quote]
yeah but it doesnt always have to be the basis of their problems...ripley from aliens problem is a great big alien queen going after her...not the fact she's female

 

[Denamic]

If women can't be put in difficult positions out of their control without it being sexist, fiction in general would be ruined.

 

[Abomination]

examples?

Dragon Age: Origins for example had a large number of female soldiers in their armies for some reason that was never explained.
In the Game of Thrones TV series the amount of sexisim is heavily downplayed.
In Skyrim there was no explanation for the gender equality either.

Those are the few I can think of for now, when I can remember the other instances I've been seeing I'll mention them also.

yeah but it doesnt always have to be the basis of their problems...ripley from aliens problem is a great big alien queen going after her...not the fact she's female

Actually her maternal instinct became a bit of a problem for her throughout the series. Especially after her alien "clone" came into the picture.

 

[Vault101]

Dragon Age: Origins for example had a large number of female soldiers in their armies for some reason that was never explained.
In the Game of Thrones TV series the amount of sexisim is heavily downplayed.
In Skyrim there was no explanation for the gender equality either.

.....so? personally I (and many other people) don;t have too much of an issue with it, in fact I really like the fact that DA:O is a gender equal setting (unlike LOTOR) it adds to the world and allows me to play a badass charachter

I played as a female city elf....who gets abducted at her own weding but fights her way out and kills the raping bastards that reped her cousin and killed her fiance...that was awsome

the thing is not every fantasy setting has to folow the rules of relatity (I could even debate the "realtiy" your pushing but that would be pointless)...I mean if there are dragons is a women weildign a sword THAT much of a big deal? is it relaly going to throw out your imersion that much?

if you want a more practical explanation then in skyrim and DA:O there's less sexism because you as a player arent going to apreciate choosing a female charachter and the game saying "current quest:head down to the market to buy food for your husbands dinner"

as for game of thrones its fantasy..not a historical account

Actually her maternal instinct became a bit of a problem for her throughout the series. Especially after her alien "clone" came into the picture.

I'm just going off aliens (the other two didnt happen *cough*) and ok whatever, yeah the whole "motherhood thing" is themtically a big part of the movie but "OH SHIT ALIEN QUEEN WANTS TO KILL ME" is a pretty universal situation

 

[axlryder]

Based on impressions, Katiness is at least an obnoxious character.

Spoiler

"Boo hoo, I don't really love this guy, it's not like I can make the noble sacrifice of being with a dude I'm not totally in love with for the sake of others".

That's just what I got from half-watching bits of the first movie though, maybe there's more to it than that. Comparing it to battle royal just makes the whole thing seem that much more laughable though.

 

[Abomination]

Dragon Age: Origins for example had a large number of female soldiers in their armies for some reason that was never explained.
In the Game of Thrones TV series the amount of sexisim is heavily downplayed.
In Skyrim there was no explanation for the gender equality either.

.....so? personally I (and many other people) don;t have too much of an issue with it, in fact I really like the fact that DA:O is a gender equal setting (unlike LOTOR) it adds to the world and allows me to play a badass charachter

I played as a female city elf....who gets abducted at her own weding but fights her way out and kills the raping bastards that reped her cousin and killed her fiance...that was awsome

the thing is not every fantasy setting has to folow the rules of relatity (I could even debate the "realtiy" your pushing but that would be pointless)...I mean if there are dragons is a women weildign a sword THAT much of a big deal? is it relaly going to throw out your imersion that much?

if you want a more practical explanation then in skyrim and DA:O there's less sexism because you as a player arent going to apreciate choosing a female charachter and the game saying "current quest:head down to the market to buy food for your husbands dinner"

as for game of thrones its fantasy..not a historical account

Actually her maternal instinct became a bit of a problem for her throughout the series. Especially after her alien "clone" came into the picture.

I'm just going off aliens (the other two didnt happen *cough*) and ok whatever, yeah the whole "motherhood thing" is themtically a big part of the movie but "OH SHIT ALIEN QUEEN WANTS TO KILL ME" is a pretty universal situation

The thing is with Dragon Age: Origins -how- is there gender equality in a feudal setting? The reasons why males were dominant during that equivalent time period still exist and no alternative is offered. There is nothing preventing a female main character from excelling in the world, you would also be presented with some differing challenges to overcome.

The presence of dragons doesn't somehow change the way how males and females biologically interact.

The Skyrim example you gave is absurd, the player character isn't going to not be a dragonborn and going to assume the role of housewife. They're an adventurer, that is an incredibly unique role and gender has little impact on it. The society was one of odd gender equality though. Perhaps it was how the Empire formed and (somewhat) embraced the idea of racial equality which spilled over into genders as well.

Game of Thrones novels had incredibly high amounts of gender inequality, but when adapted for television it was barely present - only being shown against women for their status, not their gender.

 

[xshadowscreamx]

thought katniss was strong willed,, and ellie in 'last of us'.. they look strong willed to me.

 

[AnarchistFish]

Firstly, the hunger games is a really bad example cos she's portrayed as really feisty and confrontational and pretty much saves that other guy's arse before going all che guevara on the whole place. So I don't know where you got that idea from

Secondly, this is an archetype which has been around for centuries and has recently started to be challenged and changed, so I don't see a worrying trend

 

[Vault101]

The thing is with Dragon Age: Origins -how- is there gender equality in a feudal setting? The reasons why males were dominant during that equivalent time period still exist and no alternative is offered. There is nothing preventing a female main character from excelling in the world, you would also be presented with some differing challenges to overcome.

BUT ITS NOT A FEUDAL SETTING its a fantasy setting, the thing with high fantasy is its a romaticization of the things we like about our history...never does it adress the ugly side (like lack of sanitation and everyone having bad teeth)

also who says the writer HAS to folow such rules? mabye they want to explore or just write about a world that is equal in that regard

beasically who gives a fuck? most people don;t because they like seeing women on equal footing,or they don't care

[quote/]The presence of dragons doesn't somehow change the way how males and females biologically interact.[/quote]
it does however affect the "acceptable" amount of suspension of disbelief on the readers part (which does vary form person to person) in a setting like dragon age I don't bat an eyelid at a female army commander...however when I picked up stitched I was sceptical about seeing women in a contemporary military setting...but was glad it handled with some realism without making the female characters useless.

my point is...in the end it really doesn't matter unless the character is a Mary sue

 

[Abomination]

The thing is with Dragon Age: Origins -how- is there gender equality in a feudal setting? The reasons why males were dominant during that equivalent time period still exist and no alternative is offered. There is nothing preventing a female main character from excelling in the world, you would also be presented with some differing challenges to overcome.

BUT ITS NOT A FEUDAL SETTING its a fantasy setting, the thing with high fantasy is its a romaticization of the things we like about our history...never does it adress the ugly side (like lack of sanitation and everyone having bad teeth)

also who says the writer HAS to folow such rules? mabye they want to explore or just write about a world that is equal in that regard

beasically who gives a fuck? most people don;t because they like seeing women on equal footing,or they don't care

[quote/]The presence of dragons doesn't somehow change the way how males and females biologically interact.

it does however affect the "acceptable" amount of suspension of disbelief on the readers part (which does vary form person to person) in a setting like dragon age I don't bat an eyelid at a female army commander...however when I picked up stitched I was sceptical about seeing women in a contemporary military setting...but was glad it handled with some realism without making the female characters useless.

my point is...in the end it really doesn't matter unless the character is a Mary sue[/quote]Actually it most certainly is a feudal setting. The term Arl, Ser and... well I forget some of the other terms are all simply translations from feudal titles: Earl, Duke and Sir (or Knight). The UNIVERSE is fantasy but the society is feudal.

I do wish Dragon Age would embrace the ugly side - young death by disease, terrible hygiene and all the other fun complications one in such a setting would encounter. You know, to better enjoy the role of someone in such a setting. Role playing and all.

I am more than happy to see women on equal footing with men, provided they can resolve the issue of overcoming the unfortunate process that man eventually subjugates women during such technological eras.

 

[Haukur Isleifsson]

No, I think what makes this awesome instead of awful is the fact that they do something about it. No hero is ever the proactive agent in their own story. They are put into situations where they don't want to be, they are "victimized" in a way. But what separates a victim from a hero is how they deal with that situation.

 

[Vault101]

Actually it most certainly is a feudal setting. The term Arl, Ser and... well I forget some of the other terms are all simply translations from feudal titles: Earl, Duke and Sir (or Knight). The UNIVERSE is fantasy but the society is feudal.

tehcnically as far as words go but in the end its still a fantasy setting

[quote/]I do wish Dragon Age would embrace the ugly side - young death by disease, terrible hygiene and all the other fun complications one in such a setting would encounter. You know, to better enjoy the role of someone in such a setting. Role playing and all.[/quote]
except if your a women

Dragon age is pretty diverse in its dark to light spectrum anyway, I don'tt see WHY every single setting involving technological level has to follow those arbitraity rules..it doesnt fucking matter, the world still feels alive and imersive regardless

[quote/]I am more than happy to see women on equal footing with men, provided they can resolve the issue of overcoming the unfortunate process that man eventually subjugates women during such technological eras.[/quote]
WHY??? again if we all had to follow such rules then they would all be the same, hwo would it be an improvment if I couldn't play my female elf charachter in dragon age?

might I also point out that your basing everyhting on generalisations, to every rule there is an exception and it is possible for a woman to win a fight against a man in some cases

I'll say it again its fantasy for christ sake, part of that is being able to creat the world you want to creat as the writer, if I want to write s story set a world where women call the shots and men are slaves THEN I DAMN WELL WILL because not everything has to be realistic

 

[Abomination]

Actually it most certainly is a feudal setting. The term Arl, Ser and... well I forget some of the other terms are all simply translations from feudal titles: Earl, Duke and Sir (or Knight). The UNIVERSE is fantasy but the society is feudal.

tehcnically as far as words go but in the end its still a fantasy setting

AND it's feudal. THEDAS is essentially Europe with Darkspawn, magic and dragons and the nations have been amalgamated and renamed. The parallels between THEDAS nations and real world feudal kingdoms is unmistakeable.

I do wish Dragon Age would embrace the ugly side - young death by disease, terrible hygiene and all the other fun complications one in such a setting would encounter. You know, to better enjoy the role of someone in such a setting. Role playing and all.

except if your a women

Dragon age is pretty diverse in its dark to light spectrum anyway, I don'tt see WHY every single setting involving technological level has to follow those arbitraity rules..it doesnt fucking matter, the world still feels alive and imersive regardless

My favourite part of Mount and Blade: Warband was playing as a woman and fighting my way to becoming Queen despite the disadvantage of being female in a male dominated society. It made the whole journey that much more epic.

I am more than happy to see women on equal footing with men, provided they can resolve the issue of overcoming the unfortunate process that man eventually subjugates women during such technological eras.

WHY??? again if we all had to follow such rules then they would all be the same, hwo would it be an improvment if I couldn't play my female elf charachter in dragon age?

might I also point out that your basing everyhting on generalisations, to every rule there is an exception and it is possible for a woman to win a fight against a man in some cases

I'll say it again its fantasy for christ sake, part of that is being able to creat the world you want to creat as the writer, if I want to write s story set a world where women call the shots and men are slaves THEN I DAMN WELL WILL because not everything has to be realistic

Because of agency. Men will subjugate women socially at that level of "enlightenment". It is not pretty and it is not just but it is sadly the way of things.

This doesn't mean you couldn't be a female adventurer. There is nothing preventing a female from being a main character. There is no cement rule that a woman can not be stronger than a man. Socially though (which means taking into account ALL the men and ALL the women), due to the average male and average female, men will find a way - especially in such a dark and dangerous time - to place themselves above women.

All I am suggesting is that the social disadvantages imposed upon women be embraced fully by the series. It would be an improvement in story. I don't mean that as in I like to see women being subjugated, I like seeing them rise above it or observe the drama and strife that it causes.

You can write a world where women own men by all means, but you do realise there will need to be some explanation as to HOW that happens, right? Otherwise it'll just look like a personal power fantasy.

 

[Milanezi]

Hunger Games I didn't read it, i almost didn't see it, but my younger brother-in-law got addicted to it and made me and my girlfriend watch it with him, and I TOTALLY loved it! hahah But that's not the point

I think the trend is not towards women, but any character, it's cool nowadays to paint the "hero" as a victim in a way or another. Every single character in No Country for Old Man is a victim, only that psycho isn't; hell, I can even go way back to the 80s and say Rick Deckard (Blade Runner) is a victim, he's a doomed man, locked in perpetual angst as his line of work rose a series of moral matters that make his life miserable.

Based on that, I'd say that the trend is SURVIVAL characters, they suffer but they overcome the challenge (not always, see No Country for Old Man, that's a hell of a movie, and a very very GRIM one - also The Road, that one might make you depressed and lead you to suicide, same writer, both are beautiful). The sexist thing is when a male character is the mechanism of salvation for the female character, in that he rises from angst, but she does only because he helped. That is sexist, but even then only in a "I want to be a pain in the ass and pick every flaw because I'm bitter person" way.

What you presented, at least as far as Hunger Games goes (haven't played Last of Us), it's not sexist at all, Katniss sacrifices herself (shows strength and a powerful moral standing), rises to the challenge (suffers a lot through it) and overcomes it with flying stars,

Spoiler

she's even the SINGLE reason that boy from her district gets out alive.

 

[Milanezi]

No, I think what makes this awesome instead of awful is the fact that they do something about it. No hero is ever the proactive agent in their own story. They are put into situations where they don't want to be, they are "victimized" in a way. But what separates a victim from a hero is how they deal with that situation.

Wow, very well said!

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Are these supposed to be good characters? 'Cause I don't give a damn about any of them.

Genuinely not trying to be rude to you. But I don't get it.

off-topic but I think those charachters are more "iconic" than actually memorable as charachters....

same as Samus Aran HOWEVER with her you can get a sense of what she's like (NOT other M...ignore that)

I'd say that was well put.

I don't play Zelda, but Link has always struck me as a bit of a blank slate... could be way off the mark.

I don't know what the 2nd one is, other than sexually confusing.

The rest are just beat 'em up characters. Which are about as uninteresting as it gets.

all i hear is , hmm i dont enjoy these games
these cant be character popular the world over that have spawened movies books anime and a slew of other things
nope not at all

they cant be popular connect with people and sell millions

nope
because people cant enjoy and understand, things i dont understand

those characters are memorable

the top two are link and cloud

and the bottom two are ryu
and the effing mishima's

these characters define generas
when you think rpg
action adventures
2d and 3d fighter
therse characters come up

those are, ARE memorable, these characters have been here for decades and will be for more

except that people hold high things that you dont

i HATE, HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE half life, its boring
apperently its a very popular game

just because i dont like im not gonna say that freeman and his crobar aren't memorable or iconic
god no

Ha ha... ok.

I still don't get it. Unless you think I said that I don't give a damn about any male characters... which I didn't say.

I said that a female character would probably be better at gaining my sympathy, for reasons that are likely beyond my control.