Is Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland really that awful?

[Something Amyss]

I have to ask out of honest curiosity since I haven't seen it:

Every time I see you say something about seeing something I look at your avatar and think of all the Toph "sight" gags.

Sorry. Can't resist.

It's pretty bad. Is it as bad as people say? Kinda. I think people are going over the top, but it's possibly a natural reaction to the predictable "quirk" of Burton's "vision."

As you already know Tim Burton has his own style and Alice in Wonderland makes absolutely no effort what so ever to break away from that mold. There are many people who are getting sick of it, just as they're getting sick of seeing Johnny Depp dress up in flamboyant costumes.

And that's very likely why. Burton used to push boundaries and a lot of people loved him for it. Now, he's incredibly complacent. To some people that's fine, to others, it's boring or even annoying. To me, his "style" is nice but doesn't really make the movie any better.

Hmm, I wouldn't ascribe that kind of "teenage angst"/"special snowflake syndrome" to Tim Burton. He is an adult man, who has worked in the industry for many years. I think it's a bit too much to assume that he suffers from arrested development and processes his art and his personality like some 16 year old kid.

It looked instead like they were indicating he was marketing to that crowd. It seemed more like cynical marketing (hence the "pandering" bit) than anything. Though maybe I'm misreading.

Isn't the Alice in Wonderland remake a little new for the Nostalgia Critic?

Much like the Doctor, his latest revival removed his time limit.

 

[The Hero Killer]

The movie was alright, but by that point I was tired of seeing Johnny Depp and Helena Bonham-Carter in everything Tim Burton and they could have had a better Alice.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

Awful is too strong a word but it is Bad.

It's a classic case of style over substance, aesthetic over plot.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Since Nostalgia Critic's latest video was a review of it and I saw it get quite a kicking when it first came out, I have to ask out of honest curiosity since I haven't seen it: is it really that bad?

NC certainly manages to make it look so. Some of the dialogue he showed in the review seemed only to confirm my worst suspicions about Burton: that he's indulgent, pretentious and just makes the same movie pandering to the same demographic over and over again. His newest film which I've seen was Sweeney Todd, which was okay I guess. But when I saw the posters for Dark Shadows and Frankenweenie, on both occasions I thought "great, another Tim Burton movie, not again!" Mind you, I've seen neither of them, but the posters just sreamed "I PANDER TO ARTISTIC GOTH TEENS WHO DON'T WANT TO FIT INTO THE NORM! LOOK AT ME I'M SO DIFFERENT AND ARTSY! LOOK I MADE ANOTHER MOVIE WITH A GOTHIC AESTHETIC BUT IT'S KIND OF WHACKY AND RANDOM CAUSE I'M SO DIFFERENT AND OH LOOK THERE'S BLOOD SPLATTER HERE CAUSE ITS DARK YOU KNOW!"

I want to be clear: I'm not trying to hate on Tim Burton. Hell, I've only seen around 4-5 of his movies, and I'm sure he's made great films in the past. It just puzzles me that someone who's practically made a trademark of his personality as a strange, nonconformist artist has become such a punching bag for repeating himself so much.

Got a little side tracked there. The original question still remains: Is Alice in Wonderland (2010) really that bad? Because I actually started to get interested in it, if only to see if it really is.

This is just a random question, but whats wrong with him pandering to his audience?

These are the films he likes to make, and there is a niche audience that enjoys them. As if he should be belittled for doing what works for him.

It's like when people bash Kevin Smith because for the majority of his career he's spent making movies targeted at his audience of people that already like him. Well no shit, why shouldn't he?

Mind you I mostly hate Tim Burton (Sweeney Todd the lone exception... well that film and his smoking hot wife)

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

le snip

Because whatever medium we're in, any artist merely repeating himself and rehashing the same ideas over and over without trying anything different is usually considered lazy, and are usually called out on it sooner or later.

Mind you, I've seen neither of them, but the posters just sreamed "I PANDER TO ARTISTIC GOTH TEENS WHO DON'T WANT TO FIT INTO THE NORM! LOOK AT ME I'M SO DIFFERENT AND ARTSY! LOOK I MADE ANOTHER MOVIE WITH A GOTHIC AESTHETIC BUT IT'S KIND OF WHACKY AND RANDOM CAUSE I'M SO DIFFERENT AND OH LOOK THERE'S BLOOD SPLATTER HERE CAUSE ITS DARK YOU KNOW!"

Hmm, I wouldn't ascribe that kind of "teenage angst"/"special snowflake syndrome" to Tim Burton. He is an adult man, who has worked in the industry for many years. I think it's a bit too much to assume that he suffers from arrested development and processes his art and his personality like some 16 year old kid.

I don't know which I would consider worse: that a succesful film director well into his fifties would still be stuck in that mindset, or would merely pretend to be stuck in that mindset to remain appealing to his audience.

 

[Uhura]

I don't know which I would consider worse: that a succesful film director well into his fifties would still be stuck in that mindset, or would merely pretend to be stuck in that mindset to remain appealing to his audience.

So you don't think it's possible that he genuinely loves that particular visual style? I don't know how old you are, but I get the feeling that I'm talking to a high school student who has annoying "look at me, look how different I am!" -goth class mates and is now projecting that personality type to Tim Burton.

 

[Rastrelly]

Quite an OK movie, entirely within my expectations. Designs were awesome. Hatter was the biggest letdown for me, all the other stuff worked quite well. But it has nothing to do with actual Alice in Wonderland indeed

 

[DudeistBelieve]

le snip

Because whatever medium we're in, any artist merely repeating himself and rehashing the same ideas over and over without trying anything different is usually considered lazy, and are usually called out on it sooner or later.

Mind you, I've seen neither of them, but the posters just sreamed "I PANDER TO ARTISTIC GOTH TEENS WHO DON'T WANT TO FIT INTO THE NORM! LOOK AT ME I'M SO DIFFERENT AND ARTSY! LOOK I MADE ANOTHER MOVIE WITH A GOTHIC AESTHETIC BUT IT'S KIND OF WHACKY AND RANDOM CAUSE I'M SO DIFFERENT AND OH LOOK THERE'S BLOOD SPLATTER HERE CAUSE ITS DARK YOU KNOW!"

Hmm, I wouldn't ascribe that kind of "teenage angst"/"special snowflake syndrome" to Tim Burton. He is an adult man, who has worked in the industry for many years. I think it's a bit too much to assume that he suffers from arrested development and processes his art and his personality like some 16 year old kid.

I don't know which I would consider worse: that a succesful film director well into his fifties would still be stuck in that mindset, or would merely pretend to be stuck in that mindset to remain appealing to his audience.

But then the moment they try something new the audience goes "Wait, but your the guy that makes X kind of movie. Why are you doing something different? We like what you were doing before." ALA Jim Carrey in Number 23

 

[Eamar]

Really I'd say it's no better or worse than any other soulless summer popcorn movie, but because of the Tim Burton connection it gets saddled with a whole load more attention (and backlash) than most.

For me personally, I enjoy Tim Burton's visual style very much and it really annoys me when people write it off as pandering to "special snowflake emo goth kids." Not everyone who dresses in the goth style or listens to the music and suchlike is a kid or a "special snowflake." Also emo and goth are totally different things >.<

That said, I don't actually tend to enjoy Tim Burton's films, aside from looking at the pretty costumes. It's silly - because I like the aesthetics I always trick myself into thinking I like the films overall, and I only remember that I don't when I'm stuck watching them.

TL;DR: It's not awful, it's just meh. If you're just in it for the Tim Burton experience there are better examples, but if it's caught your interest for whatever reason there's no reason not to give it a whirl.

 

[Saltyk]

It's just a pretty uninteresting film. Not awful, but predictable, and not worth much thought.

The biggest crime, to me, was to take Alice's Adventures in Wonderland as source material and use it to create.... An utterly traditional, predictable story. Protagonist goes on quest, overcomes some uncompelling adversity, and defeats the baddy.

What made the book interesting was that it wasn't like that. It was random, unpredictable, whimsical, and mostly directionless. This film is not in that spirit. It is just another fantasy quest, and there's not really any reason for it to be Alice in Wonderland themed.

I feel that this is pretty accurate. It was simply not an interesting movie. I won't say I hated it, as I didn't. But I didn't really like it. If I never see it again, I won't be upset. And the whole quest to defeat the Jabberwocky and fight against the evil Queen was out of place in Alice in Wonderland.

I feel Nostalgia Critic got it pretty right in his review. Tim Burton can knock movies out of the park when he does. Or he can make a movie that just doesn't work. He's very hit or miss. That's sort of the trouble with making art. Not everything a person makes can be great, no matter how talented they are.

Captcha: Strike Three

Damn it, Captcha! You're predicting my metaphors and adding to them. I didn't even see you when I wrote "knock movies out of the park".

But you're right, Captcha. Sometimes Burton does Strike Out with a movie.

 

[ERaptor]

While this might get me stoned:

Personally, I think that the Nostalgia Critic could make EVERY movie look hillariously bad. He often focuses and notpicks on stuff I barely notice, or care about. Which is fun, and I do enjoy watching him, but in terms of opinions and "Reviews" I have about the same relationsship to him as with Yahtzee and Videogames. I like watching them, I like listening to them, and I love how they bash stuff. But I dont take a whole lot out of their Reviews. I liked a ton of Films the NC reviewed as bad, or even horrible, and im pretty sure he overreacts on a lot of stuff on purpose for comedic effect. Not saying that he doesnt make valid points, but I found myself not caring about around 75 % of the stuff he harps about.

Now, about the Movie. I dunno, I kinda liked it. While im not a big Fan of the Art style, and Tim Burotn sometimes rubs me the wrong way, I really like the eerieness a lot of his stuff shows. And one thing I have to admit, I fking LOVED the Jabberwock in this Film.

"Jabberwocky: So my old foe, we meet on the battlefield once again.

Alice Kingsley: We've never met.

Jabberwocky: Not you, insignificant squire. My ancient enemy, the Vorpal one."

On a footnote, one movie I really REALLY jumped on the Critics train, was Avatar the last airbender. I literally screamed with him along the way. Because, FU*K that movie.

Also, is it just me, or is this "Dark Disney-Story" becoming more and more popular? I mean, the premise itself is weird, sure. But it seems to be a prominent subject lately.

 

[Fsyco]

I thought it was pretty dumb when I saw it, and I saw it when it came out in an IMAX theater. Even though I was much less familiar with film and art criticism at the time, something about it felt off. It felt really pander-ey to the artsy/goth crowd, and it wasn't really Alice in Wonderland. As has been stated above, it didn't really feel like Alice in Wonderland. It felt more like Walmart Brand Generic Fantasy LotR Knockoff with an Alice in Wonderland skin. It's like saying that the one mod of Doom 2 that turned the enemies into Barney the Dinosaur is an adaption of the original show.

While this might get me stoned:


Now, about the Movie. I dunno, I kinda liked it. While im not a big Fan of the Art style, and Tim Burotn sometimes rubs me the wrong way, I really like the eerieness a lot of his stuff shows. And one thing I have to admit, I fking LOVED the Jabberwock in this Film.

"Jabberwocky: So my old foe, we meet on the battlefield once again.

Alice Kingsley: We've never met.

Jabberwocky: Not you, insignificant squire. My ancient enemy, the Vorpal one."

Seriously? That seemed kind of like generic prophecy-fantasy type stuff to me. The whole premise almost seems like a joke, but the Jabberwocky is a really big example of it. In the original story, it was the subject of a nonsense poem where Lewis Carrol just made up silly words for the sake of it. In Burton's movie, he starts going on like something out of Lord of the Rings (not helping is the fact he's voiced by Saruman). Trying to be serious about Alice in Wonderland is missing the point.

 

[ERaptor]

While this might get me stoned:


Now, about the Movie. I dunno, I kinda liked it. While im not a big Fan of the Art style, and Tim Burotn sometimes rubs me the wrong way, I really like the eerieness a lot of his stuff shows. And one thing I have to admit, I fking LOVED the Jabberwock in this Film.

"Jabberwocky: So my old foe, we meet on the battlefield once again.

Alice Kingsley: We've never met.

Jabberwocky: Not you, insignificant squire. My ancient enemy, the Vorpal one."

Seriously? That seemed kind of like generic prophecy-fantasy type stuff to me. The whole premise almost seems like a joke, but the Jabberwocky is a really big example of it. In the original story, it was the subject of a nonsense poem where Lewis Carrol just made up silly words for the sake of it. In Burton's movie, he starts going on like something out of Lord of the Rings (not helping is the fact he's voiced by Saruman). Trying to be serious about Alice in Wonderland is missing the point.

Its not specifically WHAT he says, its also the voice, how he looks and the general moment. I just found it cool. Also, "Missing the point". That goes into the same category as people using the phrase "You are playing the Game wrong" in Videogames. Its meaningless. If people enjoy it, it doesnt matter how you portray it, or if you look at existing stuff from a different angle.

Or it could just be that I apply very low standards compared to people who watch a lot of movies, or movie-critics. Like I said, half the stuff most critics and Reviewers harp on, I barely notice.

 

[Uhura]

For me personally, I enjoy Tim Burton's visual style very much and it really annoys me when people write it off as pandering to "special snowflake emo goth kids." Not everyone who dresses in the goth style or listens to the music and suchlike is a kid or a "special snowflake." Also emo and goth are totally different things >.<

I have a problem with this too. I personally don't associate Burton's style with "emo/goth kids" at all. Growing up, none of the Burton fans I met were goth/emo and his style seemed to appeal to all kinds of teens. Alice in Wonderland is currently the 16th most highest grossing film of all time, so it's not like the visuals can't appeal to mainstream audiences. I think the 'emo/goth kid' tangent of the discussion is just bizarre.

(And as you said, interest in a subculture/aesthetic doesn't need to stem from a need to be special or different. It can be just a matter of taste, especially if you continue to enjoy those things throughout your life. The need to ascribe some kind of "special snowflake" mentality to people who are drawn to different subcultures/aesthetics smells like the worst kind of teen drama to me.)

OT: Btw,

Spoiler

From 1.02 to 1.56

According to Tim Burton, Tim Burton likes to make things that he loves. (Surprisingly, his motivations don't seem to include "must pander to emos!!" or "look at me, I'm so artsy and different!!!")

 

[Fsyco]

While this might get me stoned:


Now, about the Movie. I dunno, I kinda liked it. While im not a big Fan of the Art style, and Tim Burotn sometimes rubs me the wrong way, I really like the eerieness a lot of his stuff shows. And one thing I have to admit, I fking LOVED the Jabberwock in this Film.

"Jabberwocky: So my old foe, we meet on the battlefield once again.

Alice Kingsley: We've never met.

Jabberwocky: Not you, insignificant squire. My ancient enemy, the Vorpal one."

Seriously? That seemed kind of like generic prophecy-fantasy type stuff to me. The whole premise almost seems like a joke, but the Jabberwocky is a really big example of it. In the original story, it was the subject of a nonsense poem where Lewis Carrol just made up silly words for the sake of it. In Burton's movie, he starts going on like something out of Lord of the Rings (not helping is the fact he's voiced by Saruman). Trying to be serious about Alice in Wonderland is missing the point.

Its not specifically WHAT he says, its also the voice, how he looks and the general moment. I just found it cool. Also, "Missing the point". That goes into the same category as people using the phrase "You are playing the Game wrong" in Videogames. Its meaningless. If people enjoy it, it doesnt matter how you portray it, or if you look at existing stuff from a different angle.

Or it could just be that I apply very low standards compared to people who watch a lot of movies, or movie-critics. Like I said, half the stuff most critics and Reviewers harp on, I barely notice.

'Missing the point' when it comes to a work has more relevance than 'you're playing it wrong', since the creators usually had some kind of message they were going for that flew over people's heads. Classic examples are Scarface, Fight Club, and more recently Breaking Bad, which all are about how awful drugs, unrestrained male aggression, and again drugs, are for you. Missing the point comes when you get arrested for dealing meth in a Los Pollos Hermanos tshirt, or aspire to have the life of extravagance that Tony Montana had before his downfall.
With Alice in Wonderland, the whole point of the original work was how nonsensical and surreal the world of Wonderland was (which I read somewhere was actually about how complex, advanced math appeared to make no sense). Making that into a Lord of the Rings style epic with some kind of prophecy everyone is really serious about is pretty far from that original meaning. My problem isn't that it's been changed, its that everything they changed it with doesn't fit in and is cliched. I liked Alice: Madness Returns, and that game did the whole 'darker Alice in Wonderland' thing but it still felt like Wonderland, and all the actual serious plot had to do with Alice's problems in the real world affecting her made-up fantasy land where she dealt with her issues.

 

[McMarbles]

Tim Burton's been making the same movie over and over again for the last twenty-odd years, and I'm glad people are finally acknowledging it.

Having a certain aesthetic style doesn't mean you're making the same movie, and you look silly for saying that.

But go ahead: Tell me how James and the Giant Peach is the same as Sweeny Todd is the same as Corpse Bride is the same as Dark Shadows is the same as Sleepy Hollow.

Because the story does not matter and never matters. Every movie he makes is simply an excuse to wheel out his goth-circus aesthetic, his bizarre camera angles, his black-and-white checkerboards, his Johnny Depp slathered in makeup and decked out in in a ridiculous outfit and acting awkward-quirky, his second-hand Addams Family extras. The story is just there. The aesthetic is what has always mattered, and it's worn increasingly thin for me.

 

[Mikejames]

It was meant to be American McGee's Alice at one point, so that's mostly why I hate Burton's version because we really missed out on a better adaption.

Then there's the weird forced sort of love interest between Hatter and Alice which was stupid and awkward, the boring war and the One Hero ending, and let's not forget that he made the same stupid mistake as most Alice adaptions where they make the Queen of Hearts and the Red Queen the same bloody person.

Yeah.. McGee's version may not have been perfect, but the style was consistent, the dark visuals were great, and it mainly focused on the personal psychological issues of the protagonist as opposed to resorting to a climactic fantasy battle.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

My problem with the movie is the same problem I've had with just about every "twist on a classic fantasy tale" movie or TV show that's come out in the last ten years. To put it simply, there is nothing inherently interesting about grounding the setting in reality or applying a layer of grit and violence and indeed doing so undermines (in many cases) the original tale. In the case of Alice In Wonderland, I'd argue that the world absolutely needs the whimsical tone of the book because it comes off as far more ridiculous when you try and claim that the world full of insane hatters and murderous queens is actually a real place governed by anything resembling real human behavior.

 

[hermes]

The problem with Alice is that Burton makes a lot of effort to turn it into his personal style of Goth aesthetics with main characters with daddy issues, being dark without being edgy and Depp being wacky. This has became such a personal trademark that the words "a Burton movie" are pretty descriptive adjectives for any movie in that style...

The problem is that not every story fits those beats, not every setting goes well with those aesthetics and not every cast gets better with Depp wearing funny hats, but since this is Burton, he is incapable of deviating from it. I support a director for having a personal vision, but sometimes that vision is not the right one... Alice is one such a case.