"It's OK to steal if nobody knows."
- Thread starter Jakub324
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Legally, you're wrong. At least in my country.
Old school straight up stealing may be the intention to permanently deprive someone of property, but the law has actually changed a lot since then. Just because it ain't stealing doesn't mean it ain't illegal. Offenses such as fraudulent appropriation, misappropriation or "fraudulently obtaining financial advantage" (e.g. gaining the benefit of something without paying for it, even if you return it, or even if it's not a tangible thing) are all offenses punishable by imprisonment in the same category of crime as straight up theft and larceny.
If you use something of someone else's without their permission, you have usurped ownership rights relating to that property, even if you had no intention of permanently depriving them of the use of that object, or of damaging or altering their use of that object in anyway. You wrongfully treated that item as if it was your own and misappropriated it to your own benefit illegitimately.
There's your answer. Maybe you don't feel wrong, but it might be handy to know this if you plan on avoiding potential lawsuits in future. Just because your interaction with property may seem harmless to you doesn't mean someone wouldn't take you to court for it, never mind that they might win. Admittedly, you're not going to get sued or jailed over a pencil because that's ridiculous, but I always think people should be aware of things like this, since the law assumes that you know the law and doesn't give any leeway for you if you're wrong.
Old school straight up stealing may be the intention to permanently deprive someone of property, but the law has actually changed a lot since then. Just because it ain't stealing doesn't mean it ain't illegal. Offenses such as fraudulent appropriation, misappropriation or "fraudulently obtaining financial advantage" (e.g. gaining the benefit of something without paying for it, even if you return it, or even if it's not a tangible thing) are all offenses punishable by imprisonment in the same category of crime as straight up theft and larceny.
If you use something of someone else's without their permission, you have usurped ownership rights relating to that property, even if you had no intention of permanently depriving them of the use of that object, or of damaging or altering their use of that object in anyway. You wrongfully treated that item as if it was your own and misappropriated it to your own benefit illegitimately.
There's your answer. Maybe you don't feel wrong, but it might be handy to know this if you plan on avoiding potential lawsuits in future. Just because your interaction with property may seem harmless to you doesn't mean someone wouldn't take you to court for it, never mind that they might win. Admittedly, you're not going to get sued or jailed over a pencil because that's ridiculous, but I always think people should be aware of things like this, since the law assumes that you know the law and doesn't give any leeway for you if you're wrong.
That is called 'borrowing'. Stealing means that you have deprived the rightful owner of the thing. She was 'out' therefore she was not deprived.Jakub324 said:
Of course, a guy in my hometown used to 'borrow' the neighbour's car, drive it around in the dead of night, refill the gas tank and try to park it where he had found it. Eventually, the owner started to doubt his sanity because his car kept moving position over night. Not cool.
Also wouldn't be cool if he had needed it in an emergency to take his pregnant wife to hospital.
Thing is, if your sister had turned up and rightfully demanded to watch her DVD from the beginning whilst your mates were there you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
NOTE: that this guy and his brother are in prison for double-murder now after a botched burglary. Tiny acorns and all that... Watch yourself!
It counts as eventually if they dont know when they'll have it back. 20 minutes itself is ok but if it was law that its fine to take something for a short period of time, the definition of "a short period of time" would get abused. And yes it is decent of you to give it back before the owner notices its gone but how can you guantee you'll always succeed at doing that? Im saying its annoying when you notice something of yours is gone and only find out later that someone borrowed it without permission. If everyone did this, people would fail at getting stuff they borrowed back the owners before they notice everyday.Jakub324 said:
And in my opinion its not right that she does that. It doesn't annoy you at all that she borrows your stuff and you'll only get it back when you have to ask her for it back?
Also, Im not calling you an amoral tosser - Im stretching the rules of what you call ok because no matter what rules are made in life, people will push them. Im pointing out what many people will do if it was deemed ok to do this.
Look, Officer, he didn't even see me take it! What? Yes, I confessed. I did take it, but he didn't see me do it! My point? No one was affected. Oh, well I suppose he might have been affected later... Incase he didn't find those pills that keeps his heart going... But I stand by my retarded opinion, I did nothing wrong because no one saw me do it!
Depends- In your situation I can't imagine anyone would care that much. If you asked and she said no then maybe. Hell, so long as you're honest if you lost it or whatever then that's ok. For more serious things, no. Especially if it's people you don't know. People are more likely to trust other family members than complete strangers, obviously.
THIS IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT! YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW!!!!! YOU MUST MAIL 20USD TO THE MOVIE COMPANY FOR WATCHING THE FILM!!!! THEY ARE POOR ENOUGH AS IT IS!!!!! HOW CAN YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF WHILE UNDERMINING OUR PRECIOUS ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY!!!!! DON'T YOU KNOW THEY NEED MILLIONS IN ORDER TO PRODUCE THE UNINSPIRED CRAP THAT THEY DO!!! YOU SHOULD BE THROWN IN JAIL AND THE KEY THROWN AWAY!! THE MPAA WILL KNOW ABOUT THIS!Jakub324 said:
My thoughts exactly when I read the title of this thread.Girl With One Eye said:
OT: But yeah, there's a difference between borrowing a movie and putting it back to where it was and then "borrowing" something like a car or something. So it probably wouldn't be a good idea to go too far with this notion.
BUT THEY DO, YOU DON'T GET IT.MrDeckard said:
The copies have cameras built into them
Now, to tackle the OP before the Living Snow Men get me:
Jakub324 said:
Dost I senseth a troll thread?Jakub324 said:
OP, you seem to have an issue with staying on one side of the issue.
Whenever someone corrects you and says "it's wrong to permanently take something of someone else's" you say "no, to take it, and put it back, sometimes in better condition" while others have stated that your "sister's DVD" situation is borrowing, not stealing, and you tell THEM "I'm talking about if they would NEVER KNOW it's gone".
You keep jumping back and forth between a permanent steal and just borrowing without permission, which by very definition isn't stealing. Unless I'm reading things wrong. Let me know if I am.
Either way, I'll tackle both points:
Borrowing without permission is fine IF you know the person VERY well. They're family/a best friend. Stuff like that.
Stealing permanently if they wouldn't ever notice it's gone... grey area. Stealing is bad. But if they really would never know it's gone... I don't know. This falls to close to the "it's ok if you don't get caught" school of thought.
Hell ya, that's the whole point in a being a thief. You're suppose to steal in a way that make net you the biggest profits yet makes the smallest amount of impact as possible. It's even better when you steal from rich idiots that can replace anything they lose and most likely get bigger versions.
I see you still don't understand: assume they never knew it was taken. The example assumes the owner is not around to be asked, and so as long as it was put back where it had been before it was used, there would be no reason to suspect anything. And yes, I can guarantee that I can get it back before it's absence is noted. Why? It never leaves the room.Auron225 said:
Is stealing wrong?
Morally? Yes.
Legally? Only if you're caught.
Is the specific scenario you described stealing?
No. The item never left the owner's place of residence, was not damaged, and was returned to it's original spot. Since it was a shared residence (between her, you, and any other immediate family members you may or may not have) no other laws were broken.
But it was still a dick move. You entered her personal space without her permission and went through her possessions (even briefly, even if you knew exactly where to go for the dvd) to take something of hers without permission and use it. And then violated her personal space a second time to return the item. If you had prior permission to perform these acts, then I will retract my claim of it being a dick move.
If I borrow my neighbor's ladder, without his permission, so that I can clean out my gutters and return said ladder in pristine condition before he notices it was missing, did I do wrong? The answer is yes. Even though he never noticed it was gone, it was still wrong of me to take it without his consent. It was wrong of me to go into his storage space without his consent. Both legally and morally. In your specific example it was with a family member, but if your going to ask a question like you did, it has to apply to everyone, not just your immediate family. If you wish to avoid flame threads in the future, I recommend you state that you are asking if you were in the wrong in your specific example. But since you have not stated if you had prior permission to perform the actions you stated in your example, you did wrong and you should feel shame.
Morally? Yes.
Legally? Only if you're caught.
Is the specific scenario you described stealing?
No. The item never left the owner's place of residence, was not damaged, and was returned to it's original spot. Since it was a shared residence (between her, you, and any other immediate family members you may or may not have) no other laws were broken.
But it was still a dick move. You entered her personal space without her permission and went through her possessions (even briefly, even if you knew exactly where to go for the dvd) to take something of hers without permission and use it. And then violated her personal space a second time to return the item. If you had prior permission to perform these acts, then I will retract my claim of it being a dick move.
If I borrow my neighbor's ladder, without his permission, so that I can clean out my gutters and return said ladder in pristine condition before he notices it was missing, did I do wrong? The answer is yes. Even though he never noticed it was gone, it was still wrong of me to take it without his consent. It was wrong of me to go into his storage space without his consent. Both legally and morally. In your specific example it was with a family member, but if your going to ask a question like you did, it has to apply to everyone, not just your immediate family. If you wish to avoid flame threads in the future, I recommend you state that you are asking if you were in the wrong in your specific example. But since you have not stated if you had prior permission to perform the actions you stated in your example, you did wrong and you should feel shame.
But that's the whole freakin' point, people should learn to use the correct terms for things.badgersprite said:
Sure the punishment may be similar or downright the same, but it's still a different offense. Just cause it's illegal doesn't mean it's theft. I can be any other illegal thing. I mean, a mugging and an assault are similar too, but they're different things. So yeah, a joyride is not theft. It's still an offense punishable in a similar fashion, but it's still a distinctly different offense.
