It's "that" Skyrim topic again...

[Vedli]

the Thalmor evidently have the entirety of the High Elf homeland, since nearly all thalmor are High Elves, and a good amount of Valenwood where the Bosmer come from.

Morrowind, of course is a wasteland full of suck right now due to a volcano, but I would say there are some outposts there too.


Hammerfell evidently took a large hit and cities are under Thalmor control but there is talk in game of there being a resistance.

Actually the Dominion was driven out of Hammerfell by the Resistance
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hammerfell

 

[happyninja42]

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

Is he playing into their hands, or is it just that the "right thing" for Skyrim, also happens to be beneficial to the Thalmor? I mean, if I live in a neighborhood, and help the police catch a pedophile that lives near us, yeah it might help the local drug dealer too, who pointed out to us that the pedophile was there, but it's still good for me to have him gone. Sure the drug dealer might buy the house and turn it into a drug den, and that is a seperate issue to be dealt with if it happens, but I wasn't "playing right into the drug dealer's hands" by getting the pedophile removed. It was still something that needed to be done, it just also benefited another potential problem.

 

[happyninja42]

Does it have to be one or the other? I never played the storyline quests, so I don't know. Can you just make yourself king or something?

You can't, but you can completely ignore the civil war aspect of the game.

Yeah, which is in my opinion, the best option. In the end, nothing is changed with the game when you pick one side or the other, except for what type guards are around. Hell in Whiterun, even after helping the Stormcloak's win, and free Skryim, that crazy Talos street preacher is STILL standing there rambling about how the Children of Talos need to RISE UP STORMCLOAKS!! *rolls eyes* I was SO hoping he would SHUT UP once I accomplished what he wanted...but no..he was still coded to walk out there every morning and rant ALL DAY about the very thing I accomplished.

So, yeah, skip the revolution, it's sort of pointless. And really when you have giant dragons turning villagers into barbecue kebabs, the revolution seems less pressing.

Though I will admit, the actual quests involved in taking over the cities was fun. Playing as a 2handed, heavy armor, Shout flinging Son of Talos, was VERY fun, storming the cities with my Stormcloak npc allies with me. It was without a doubt FUN, but ultimately pointless.

 

[Kungfu_Teddybear]

Neither, unless I'm playing a character specifically designed for the civil war plot line. While I agree with some of the Stormcloaks' ideals, the racism puts me off. By all means, make yourselves independent if you want, just don't be dicks to other races for not being Nords. As for the Empire, well, to me, they are no longer the Empire. They no longer have a Septim Emperor, they've become puppets of the Thalmor and banned Talos worship.

 

[Lightknight]

Like has been said, the only way the Thalmor lose out is if their puppet side loses quickly. If the war is drawn out, they win. If their puppet's side wins, they have a puppet on the throne of the country they want to take over and are perfectly equiped to do so.

The only way they don't win is if the puppet stops being a puppet in the case of victory.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Who I side with always depends on who my character is in that particular play through.

Both sides have issues that are disagreeable and both sides have some decent, hard-working people who can make a player sympathetic as well as complete chowder-heads who turn a player off.

The Imperial General Tullius... he's a tool. He's up for executing one more person just because they happened to be there, and sure throw in the horse thief too, he clearly deserves death for being pitiful. He has little to no respect for the customs and society of the Nords - basically a Colonialist type of attitude: let the primitives have their customs as long as they don't get in the way of the Imperial mission, when they do, brush them aside with a sword.

The Queen is obviously a puppet. Sure, she might be a puppet of the Empire we were somewhat invested in the last title (Oblivion), but she's still totally taking her cues from the General and her Steward and everyone else. She's not strong. She's not as invested in protecting her people from being exploited as she is in holding her own position. She has you go in secret to place an offering to Talos for her husband because she doesn't have the spine to place one herself, though she clearly believes it should be done.

Ulfric is also a puppet - though the whole way he is a puppet is sort of muddled and inferred rather than demonstrated directly. He cares about the people of Skyrim and the people who will die in the war - if you listen to his conversation with his top guy - which is not a public announcement but a private conversation - he does care about his people, but he cares about them to the exclusion of the other races. Sure, he's not looking to exterminate anyone, but he is obviously xenophobic and believes that Nords should have the priority in Skyrim over any of the mer or non-Nord men. Clearly some of his followers are fanatics and I can't say I approve of letting drunks run amok in one's holding.

On the other hand, the family that runs the mill of the Stormcloak you escape with seems like good people who manage to live in relative harmony with the family of the blacksmith of the imperial guy you can escape with instead. Sure the two big families in Whiterun are feuding over it - but not everyone is. Like any ideological war - the common people have an opinion and they might support a side, but life has to go on and life is too hard to get through without the help of your neighbors, even if you disagree about some abstract concepts or rules or what-have-you.

So, eventually, I determined that I prefer NOT to choose a side, to skip out on the Civil War quests and broker a short-term truce to focus on the, y'know, dragon problem, vampire problem, etc. etc. That's the way I go with most of my games now.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

I really don't like the Stormcloaks. I can summarise the points as follows:

- They're xenophobic. They constantly talk about how their way of life is being destroyed, when I feel like reminding them that they live in the snowy arse-end of Tamriel. Quite frankly, if there wasn't a war on no one would care.

- They're hypocrites. They complain that the worship of Talos has been outlawed, when they did far worse to the Forsworn in the name of good-old Nord values (I know it wasn't the Stormcloaks themselves that did that ,but Nords in general).

- Ulfric Stormcloak's justification for killing the King (a rather young King, at that) boils down to "Because I could."

- Ulfric acts like a petulant child at the negotiation at High Hrothgar. First he tries to tell the Imperials who they can and can't bring to the meeting. Then he asks for a major city in exchange for a tiny one. And if you side with the Imperials on both of these issues, he whines that you're being unfair to the Stormcloaks.

- Apparently Ulfric is so self-centred he's okay with having an entire army name themselves after him.

I'll admit that most of my problems with the Stormcloaks stem from Ulfric Stormcloak being an idiot and a Thalmor plant as well. But since he seems to be placed as the charismatic figure head and leader on everything they do, I think it's fair to judge them for that.

They have legitimate reasons to be xenophobic. Invaders are legitimately trying to destroy their way of life and banning the worship of their most sacred god.

The forsworn worship daedras and hagravens, both of which practice human sacrifice incredibly commonly. Also, until the conflict over the land the nords and bretons shared the land and got along well.

He killed him in a duel which he agreed to, as per the ancient customs.

skippin it

He didn't name the stormcloaks. The Imperials used it as a insult for the rebels, but they took it as a badge of honor.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Like has been said, the only way the Thalmor lose out is if their puppet side loses quickly. If the war is drawn out, they win. If their puppet's side wins, they have a puppet on the throne of the country they want to take over and are perfectly equiped to do so.

The only way they don't win is if the puppet stops being a puppet in the case of victory.

He is not really a puppet. Sure they have manipulated the war some, but he hated the Thalmor. If he wins it is vry likely he will come to the Empire's aid in the event of a war against the Thalmor.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

They have Justiciars who are constantly rooting out Talos Worship, who have the powers of Judge, Jury and Executioner. Basically the Thalmor Justiciars are Gestapo.

There is also a Fort to the north east of Solitude where Thalmor "interrogate" Talos worshippers (a parallel to Jews) and Stormcloaks. It's placed in a suspiciously remote location behind the northernmost mountains at the very tip of Skyrim by the sea and, though they claim they have imperial permission, there are no imperial officers present. It is the only place inhabited solely by Thalmor with the exception of the Embassies restricted areas.

There is one quest you can take to rescue the Son of a stormcloak supporter which ultimately involves storming the place (even as an imperial or altmer). There is a bugged part of the quest where you can ask Tullius to free the man, but even in modded games that have that section fixed you will still have storm the place.

Now at this point it's easy to assume it's POW camp. But, you find in the prison cells there are also Khajiit, Argonian and Dunmer prisoners, of which are highly unlikely to be Talos worshippers (Dunmer commonly worship Daedra, Argonians worship the Hist and Sithis, Khajiit worship a variation of the old Aldmeri pantheon) or Stormcloak supporters (due to the fact the stormcloaks are resentful towards all non-nords).

This fits in with Altmers notorious superiority complex over other "lesser" races. What used to be an air of arrogance in earlier games has become a full blown racial supremacist culture.

There are a lot of Parralells between Nazis and the Thalmor. They aren't a literal reimagining of them in a fantasy setting, but they have a lot of components that smell like Fascist Nazi Germany, and I doubt that is a coincidence.

Like has been said, the only way the Thalmor lose out is if their puppet side loses quickly. If the war is drawn out, they win. If their puppet's side wins, they have a puppet on the throne of the country they want to take over and are perfectly equiped to do so.

The only way they don't win is if the puppet stops being a puppet in the case of victory.

He is not really a puppet. Sure they have manipulated the war some, but he hated the Thalmor. If he wins it is vry likely he will come to the Empire's aid in the event of a war against the Thalmor.

This is an important Point. I think a lot of folks misinterpreted the Stormcloaks intentions. They wanted independence from the Empire because they felt the Empire failed them at the end of the war with the Aldmeri Dominion. A lot of Nords spilled their blood in the name of the emperor, only to have their cutlure oppressed disproportionately to the other races of the Empire. They saw it as a betrayal and a sign of unrepentant weakness on the part of the Emperor (since Talos was the man/god who founded the third empire... the empire that has now abandoned him).

It's evident that Stormcloak supporters resent the Empire, but they utterly despise the Aldmeri Dominion. Even if canon states that Skyrim gained its independence I'm sure that they will side with the imperial remnants when the next great war begins. Here's to hoping the next game focuses on the next war with a little more enthusiasm, since the civil war was pretty poorly done (it should have been a major component to the main quest, not a short poorly paced and scripted side quest).

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

Well there is their secret agenda to end the world and return everyone (the elves) to Aetherius. The details are kinda fuzzy, but the banning of talos tied into that agenda.

That is at best a shaky plot and I say the plot by Camoran is more like what you want. The banning of Talos stems from the worship of their version of Hitler to a degree of sheer fanaticism. There are still Altmer who remembered Talos quite well and was only in Oblivion did Talos became a major god on the Pantheon rather than that little cult you faced in Morrowind. In essence, Talos is essentially a Daedra, someone meant to act as a placeholder of another god they cannot say is a divine, namely Lorkhan. Incidentally, the Nords venerate Lorkhan/Shor. To better explain their motivation for banning Talos:

Now this is the big one, a stipulation put in place by the Thalmor that let people crucify them, and yet it's the one that they are most likely in the right to call for beyond a reasonable doubt. It's not a simple measure of infringing on some supposed right to religion, it's about dismantling a bloodthirsty racist cult. They said they would do it, this is the first step of 'purification for all' that was put forward by the Thalmor Creed.

Talos, a righteous god, a grand and wonderful ascended Divine that opened up a glorious age of prosperity and peace... not from the Altmeri point of view. We know that Talos wasn't born a god, how did he become a god? Through being a bloodthirsty warlord? (Redguard) Through unleashing a weapon of mass destruction on a peaceful foreign population center? (On Morrowind) By turning the weapon on his political opponents at home? (Arcturian Heresy) Through viciously depopulating subjugated areas and causing wanton destruction? (Pocket Guide to the Empire 3rd edition) Through having his ethnocentric ideals around human supremacy used to abort a half-breed child from his lover so his legitimate heir wouldn't have any competition for the throne? (The Real Barenziah) Why was Tiber Septim's heritage, loyalty, and motivations questioned even after he had won one greatest and most decisive battle of his career at the battle of Hunding Bay? (Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st edition) Simply put, through what method, and for what reason did Tiber Septim become a god? There is one though, it was spelled out quite clearly in Cyrodiilic culture.

Cyrodiilic and Nord cultures venerate heroes, that much is true, the Elves do it as well. However, while the Elven heroes are often from the first generations of their king, or through certain specific circumstances in the case of the tribunal, the Cyrodiils and Nords will simply set up a shrine and start praising their savior as a God (Reflections of Cult Worship). It's common, Tiber Septim did this to his own predecessor Emperor Cuhlecain by establishing the Cult of Zero-Emperor (Arcturian Heresy, Pocket Guide to the Empire 3rd edition). One of the most peculiar points of note is that the central Cyrodiilic people were not generally in favor of Talos as a Divine, his converts were from three groups of people: the military, the provincials, and those recently assimilated into Imperial culture (Reflections on Cult Worship) so while the altruism behind some of the dialogue of 'The Talos Mistake' might not be correct, the general principle that he was merely a great man and Emperor, is still viewed favorably.

Often the question associated with the Thalmor/Human dichotomay is that it's phrased in the form of a Nord question. ?Is Talos a god?? There's evidence back and forth for this. The Nords have phrased the debate on their own terms by making it an issue of religious freedoms. It bypasses the quintessential Altmeri counter-question which is never asked directly, ?Why are you following him?? (As an aside, I feel into this trap many many times. It's a question always put forward with the unquestionable and unspoken answer that Talos should be worshiped and it's merely a matter of if they can worship him) What is the purpose of worshiping someone like Talos? As a point of note, Reman Cyrodiil had a cult and was worshiped as a hero god, Pelinal Whitestrake did too, so why did Talos become so popular for them?

The reason for this has almost nothing to do with Talos, it has to do with someone far earlier, Lorkhan. Nords in particular have associated Talos worship with worship of Shor, the Nord name for Lorkhan. This has allowed them a chance to transpose Lorkhan worship onto Talos as a Divine all his own. The Nords in particular have ascribed Talos the position of Shor that was never mentioned in traditional worship ?Talos has become Lord of the Divines? (Priest Heimskr, Nords Arise!). It makes sense, Shor and Septim have many similarities: being a warlord with an ethnocentric point of view (Redguard, Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st edition), they were notable for uniting human lands, they were both notable for being vicious, both were ascribed to being pure Atmoran Nords making them the quintessential role models for Nords. But when the Cyrodiilic 'apologist' religion of the 8 Divines were being created, the Alessians understood the value of not including Shor in their worship as it was offensive and vicious and couldn't win converts on its own message of bloodshed and violence (Shezzar and the Divines). They half-heartedly included him as a 'god' but not a recognized Divine in Shezzar. The Nords were unhappy with this but accepted it. When Talos worship became acceptable they simply used him as a method of transference between Shor to Talos and thus had their Divines not only included, but placed at the top of the pantheon.

Ergo worship to Talos is worship to the ideologies of Shor, and thus Lorkhan which is why the Altmer are so displeased. Likewise, this same religion that had already compromised their own gods was forced on them in the form of the 8 Divines. Thus when Talos became the 9th Divine they were forced to worship him too. There are still very very likely Altmer alive that knew Tiber Septim first hand, it's only been about 700 years. Thus they still remember the time when Talos was their cruel, vicious conqueror and humans see it as something that always was and always had been. The Altmer wish to correct this, after all, they have no problem with the 8 Divines, in fact they support this, but the worship of Talos is simply worshiping the memory of a person who's quintessential personality was to demean the accomplishments of non humans and subjugate them under his rule.

There is one group that would whole heartedly agree that Talos was a god, the Psijics. However, that doesn't make him a Divine, and it doesn't make him good, it makes him merely important. Simply following the path of religious connections in the Altmeri tradition, this would make Talos a paradox, a Sithian creation that was by their very definition, a Daedra, which gives him power, authority, and ruthlessness, everything that traditional Altmeri religion says they are to avoid or else they'll end up like Trinimac. The worship of Talos, is therefor, a corruption in and of itself no matter how an Altmer will look at it. That is the reason why Talos worship is banned.

Ah, thats what they say: pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Lightknight]

Like has been said, the only way the Thalmor lose out is if their puppet side loses quickly. If the war is drawn out, they win. If their puppet's side wins, they have a puppet on the throne of the country they want to take over and are perfectly equiped to do so.

The only way they don't win is if the puppet stops being a puppet in the case of victory.

He is not really a puppet. Sure they have manipulated the war some, but he hated the Thalmor. If he wins it is vry likely he will come to the Empire's aid in the event of a war against the Thalmor.

That was my reasoning regarding choosing his side, but it's an unknown. Shame there wasn't DLC resolving the aftermath.

 

[Rariow]

I haven't played Skyrim properly for about 6 months, so I might be remembering wrong, but if I remember right the reason Ulfric is referred to as a Thalmor puppet isn't because he's working for them. He actively dislikes them more than the Empire, and works against them. However, Skyrim alone wouldn't be able to stand against them without the Empire, and as such if Ulfric achieves his goal, the Thalmor are more likely to take Skyrim over. Similarly, any sort of plans rebellion against the Thalmor within the Empire that might be put into execution later would also be screwed, since they no longer have Skyrim's resources working with them. It's a divide and conquer situation.

Once could argue that it's better to take action than to wait for the opportunity to take action to present itself (Which is what the Stormcloaks argue vs what the Empire argues), but that's the root of the "Ulfric is a Thalmor puppet" thing.

I never made my mind up about what side to be on, to be honest. I lean towards the Stormcloaks, since I really, really hate the Thalmor (Never liked the Altmer since Morrowing, and now they're fantasy Nazis as well) and don't think the Empire should keep existing afer the end of the Septim dinasty (Since they're the only reason it had a point in the first place), but the Stormcloaks are just so dumb most of the time.

 

[Souplex]

Either a prolonged conflict, or a Stormcloak victory help the Dominion. If Skyrim secedes, then High Rock is completely cut off from Cyrodiil, and may secede as well. There will be no power large enough to oppose the Dominion.
The civil war is exactly what the Thalmor wanted when they wrote the Concordant.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

I really don't like the Stormcloaks. I can summarise the points as follows:

- They're xenophobic. They constantly talk about how their way of life is being destroyed, when I feel like reminding them that they live in the snowy arse-end of Tamriel. Quite frankly, if there wasn't a war on no one would care.

- They're hypocrites. They complain that the worship of Talos has been outlawed, when they did far worse to the Forsworn in the name of good-old Nord values (I know it wasn't the Stormcloaks themselves that did that ,but Nords in general).

- Ulfric Stormcloak's justification for killing the King (a rather young King, at that) boils down to "Because I could."

- Ulfric acts like a petulant child at the negotiation at High Hrothgar. First he tries to tell the Imperials who they can and can't bring to the meeting. Then he asks for a major city in exchange for a tiny one. And if you side with the Imperials on both of these issues, he whines that you're being unfair to the Stormcloaks.

- Apparently Ulfric is so self-centred he's okay with having an entire army name themselves after him.

I'll admit that most of my problems with the Stormcloaks stem from Ulfric Stormcloak being an idiot and a Thalmor plant as well. But since he seems to be placed as the charismatic figure head and leader on everything they do, I think it's fair to judge them for that.

They have legitimate reasons to be xenophobic. Invaders are legitimately trying to destroy their way of life and banning the worship of their most sacred god.

The forsworn worship daedras and hagravens, both of which practice human sacrifice incredibly commonly. Also, until the conflict over the land the nords and bretons shared the land and got along well.

He killed him in a duel which he agreed to, as per the ancient customs.

skippin it

He didn't name the stormcloaks. The Imperials used it as a insult for the rebels, but they took it as a badge of honor.

1) That's a good reason to dislike the High Elves and the Imperials, not a good reason to be xenophobic. Windhelm, the Stormcloak "capital", is filled with racism against the Dark Elf population for no good reason at all.

2) Yes, the Reach was shared and both Nords and Bretons were treated equally. When the Forsworn were in charge. Let me just quote from here: [link]http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Forsworn[/link]

When the Empire went to war with the Aldmeri Dominion, troops from the Reach were called to duty. In the year of 174 4E, radical Reachmen rebelled in the city of Markarth. This rebellion quickly gained support among indigenous Bretons, and was successful in driving the Nords out of their land. Between 174-176 4E, an independent kingdom ruled by the Reachmen was instated. During this time, this kingdom was ruled fairly, both Nords and Bretons being treated equally.

However, when the Great War ended in 4E 175(culminating in the signature of the White-Gold Concordat between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion), people lost the right to worship Talos. Ulfric Stormcloak, the Jarl of Windhelm and a former member of the Imperial Legion, was opposed to this. Desperate to regain control of the Reach, Skyrim accepted the aid of a Nord militia led by Ulfric to reclaim the hold from the native Reachmen, in exchange for permitting the free worship of Talos in Markarth. Ulfric, with his Stormcloaks, took back Markarth brutish, forcing the rebellious Reachmen into the hills. These Reachmen would eventually become the Forsworn. The aftermath of Ulfric's invasion of Markarth inspired many otherwise non-radical Bretons to change their minds and take up arms against not only Ulfric's men, but also any foreigners. Many, in bitterness, fled into the hills of the Hold, joining the Forsworn.

I don't particularly like the Forsworn. They're just as bad as the Stormcloaks and worse in places. But what they say about reclaiming their land and the "old ways" sounds virtually identical to what Ulfric says, which is why I think of the Stormcloaks as hypocrites. They only have a problem with people losing their traditions and lands when it's them.

3) So says Ulfric. The Imperials disagree. And basically, I don't think there's much honour in using something as powerful as a dragon shout in a fight against a younger and less experienced opponent. It doesn't demonstrate anything, certainly not who is more fit to be ruler. Heck, he could have declared war through another method, but he thought it would be more fitting to kill a respected, if inexperienced leader just to show that he could. Oh, and to quote Torygg if you actually talk to him in Sovngarde: "I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?"

4) Any particular reason why?

5) I know he didn't name them, but apparently he's quite happy to revel in being the one in charge. How convenient that winning the war will bring him nothing but power.

 

[kortin]

They're both super evil, especially once you read into the whole forsworn backstory.

Lol look at this forsworn sympathizer

I bet you think Markarth rightfully belongs to High Rock too

and you replaced your heart with a Briar Heart which could easily be pickpocketed off you and therefore kill you.

 

[Soundwave]

To be fair, the Nord's racism against the various elves IS justified. Unlike real racism. The elves have historically enslaved and invaded human lands for most of written history.

 

[prpshrt]

Hmm... I just went around killing everything that moved. But it seems like both parties have their heads up their asses. They're both willing to murder in the name of religion :\

 

[Ragsnstitches]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

Well there is their secret agenda to end the world and return everyone (the elves) to Aetherius. The details are kinda fuzzy, but the banning of talos tied into that agenda.

That is at best a shaky plot and I say the plot by Camoran is more like what you want. The banning of Talos stems from the worship of their version of Hitler to a degree of sheer fanaticism. There are still Altmer who remembered Talos quite well and was only in Oblivion did Talos became a major god on the Pantheon rather than that little cult you faced in Morrowind. In essence, Talos is essentially a Daedra, someone meant to act as a placeholder of another god they cannot say is a divine, namely Lorkhan. Incidentally, the Nords venerate Lorkhan/Shor. To better explain their motivation for banning Talos:

Now this is the big one, a stipulation put in place by the Thalmor that let people crucify them, and yet it's the one that they are most likely in the right to call for beyond a reasonable doubt. It's not a simple measure of infringing on some supposed right to religion, it's about dismantling a bloodthirsty racist cult. They said they would do it, this is the first step of 'purification for all' that was put forward by the Thalmor Creed.

Talos, a righteous god, a grand and wonderful ascended Divine that opened up a glorious age of prosperity and peace... not from the Altmeri point of view. We know that Talos wasn't born a god, how did he become a god? Through being a bloodthirsty warlord? (Redguard) Through unleashing a weapon of mass destruction on a peaceful foreign population center? (On Morrowind) By turning the weapon on his political opponents at home? (Arcturian Heresy) Through viciously depopulating subjugated areas and causing wanton destruction? (Pocket Guide to the Empire 3rd edition) Through having his ethnocentric ideals around human supremacy used to abort a half-breed child from his lover so his legitimate heir wouldn't have any competition for the throne? (The Real Barenziah) Why was Tiber Septim's heritage, loyalty, and motivations questioned even after he had won one greatest and most decisive battle of his career at the battle of Hunding Bay? (Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st edition) Simply put, through what method, and for what reason did Tiber Septim become a god? There is one though, it was spelled out quite clearly in Cyrodiilic culture.

Cyrodiilic and Nord cultures venerate heroes, that much is true, the Elves do it as well. However, while the Elven heroes are often from the first generations of their king, or through certain specific circumstances in the case of the tribunal, the Cyrodiils and Nords will simply set up a shrine and start praising their savior as a God (Reflections of Cult Worship). It's common, Tiber Septim did this to his own predecessor Emperor Cuhlecain by establishing the Cult of Zero-Emperor (Arcturian Heresy, Pocket Guide to the Empire 3rd edition). One of the most peculiar points of note is that the central Cyrodiilic people were not generally in favor of Talos as a Divine, his converts were from three groups of people: the military, the provincials, and those recently assimilated into Imperial culture (Reflections on Cult Worship) so while the altruism behind some of the dialogue of 'The Talos Mistake' might not be correct, the general principle that he was merely a great man and Emperor, is still viewed favorably.

Often the question associated with the Thalmor/Human dichotomay is that it's phrased in the form of a Nord question. ?Is Talos a god?? There's evidence back and forth for this. The Nords have phrased the debate on their own terms by making it an issue of religious freedoms. It bypasses the quintessential Altmeri counter-question which is never asked directly, ?Why are you following him?? (As an aside, I feel into this trap many many times. It's a question always put forward with the unquestionable and unspoken answer that Talos should be worshiped and it's merely a matter of if they can worship him) What is the purpose of worshiping someone like Talos? As a point of note, Reman Cyrodiil had a cult and was worshiped as a hero god, Pelinal Whitestrake did too, so why did Talos become so popular for them?

The reason for this has almost nothing to do with Talos, it has to do with someone far earlier, Lorkhan. Nords in particular have associated Talos worship with worship of Shor, the Nord name for Lorkhan. This has allowed them a chance to transpose Lorkhan worship onto Talos as a Divine all his own. The Nords in particular have ascribed Talos the position of Shor that was never mentioned in traditional worship ?Talos has become Lord of the Divines? (Priest Heimskr, Nords Arise!). It makes sense, Shor and Septim have many similarities: being a warlord with an ethnocentric point of view (Redguard, Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st edition), they were notable for uniting human lands, they were both notable for being vicious, both were ascribed to being pure Atmoran Nords making them the quintessential role models for Nords. But when the Cyrodiilic 'apologist' religion of the 8 Divines were being created, the Alessians understood the value of not including Shor in their worship as it was offensive and vicious and couldn't win converts on its own message of bloodshed and violence (Shezzar and the Divines). They half-heartedly included him as a 'god' but not a recognized Divine in Shezzar. The Nords were unhappy with this but accepted it. When Talos worship became acceptable they simply used him as a method of transference between Shor to Talos and thus had their Divines not only included, but placed at the top of the pantheon.

Ergo worship to Talos is worship to the ideologies of Shor, and thus Lorkhan which is why the Altmer are so displeased. Likewise, this same religion that had already compromised their own gods was forced on them in the form of the 8 Divines. Thus when Talos became the 9th Divine they were forced to worship him too. There are still very very likely Altmer alive that knew Tiber Septim first hand, it's only been about 700 years. Thus they still remember the time when Talos was their cruel, vicious conqueror and humans see it as something that always was and always had been. The Altmer wish to correct this, after all, they have no problem with the 8 Divines, in fact they support this, but the worship of Talos is simply worshiping the memory of a person who's quintessential personality was to demean the accomplishments of non humans and subjugate them under his rule.

There is one group that would whole heartedly agree that Talos was a god, the Psijics. However, that doesn't make him a Divine, and it doesn't make him good, it makes him merely important. Simply following the path of religious connections in the Altmeri tradition, this would make Talos a paradox, a Sithian creation that was by their very definition, a Daedra, which gives him power, authority, and ruthlessness, everything that traditional Altmeri religion says they are to avoid or else they'll end up like Trinimac. The worship of Talos, is therefor, a corruption in and of itself no matter how an Altmer will look at it. That is the reason why Talos worship is banned.

Ah, thats what they say: pot calling the kettle black.

Talos isn't a Daedra. A Daedra has very specific qualities that Talos doesn't. For one the Deadra have a direct influence on the world, not just by proxy. Like other Aedra (or divines), Talos can only empower his worshippers through their own acts, not by any direct manipulation (a man who calls upon a Divine for strength can receive it, but a Divine cannot interfere on their own terms).

There is a lot of subjectivity in the faiths on Nirn, but there demonstrable evidences of Talos's divinity. In Oblivion, the Blood of a devine is needed to enter Mankar Cameran's Paradise, which is meant to be an impossibility since the Devines have no physical body, but the Blood of Talos retrieved from the Armor he wore when he was struck down and was entombed in is what you use to accomplish this. This is evidence of his Divinity.

A blessing from Talos is what enables the Champion to follow Umaril into the spirit world as a Knight of the "Nine" divines. This implies that the Divine Pantheon has accepted Talos as one of their own.

These are canonical, objective events that stand as testament to Talos's divinity. As for his virtues/atrocities during his war against the ancient Mer? Well, most of the history of Tamriel is laced with misdirection or ambiguity. But a great empire falling at the hands of the upstart races of man? Yeah, that would make a race of arrogant supremacists feel a bit sore and they likely wouldn't have much nice to say about him.

Another bit of evidence that Talos has risen to divinity and isn't just a man that nordic myth claims ascended, is that he isn't present in Sovngarde, the resting place of all Nords, when the Dragonborn enters there to face down Alduin, despite his Nordic heritage and his influence on Tamriel.

 

[Doom972]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

They have Justiciars who are constantly rooting out Talos Worship, who have the powers of Judge, Jury and Executioner. Basically the Thalmor Justiciars are Gestapo.

They sound more like the Spanish Inquisition to me, but fair enough, I see your point there.

There is also a Fort to the north east of Solitude where Thalmor "interrogate" Talos worshippers (a parallel to Jews) and Stormcloaks. It's placed in a suspiciously remote location behind the northernmost mountains at the very tip of Skyrim by the sea and, though they claim they have imperial permission, there are no imperial officers present. It is the only place inhabited solely by Thalmor with the exception of the Embassies restricted areas.

Jews weren't imprisoned in this manner. Jews were either restricted to the ghettos to die of sickness and/or starvation, sent to forced work camps, or sent to death camps. In short, they were treated like animals, not prisoners. I checked this place out, and what I understood is that these prisoners are held because the Thalmor consider them a risk to their cause (probably because they know certain Thalmor secrets) or because they want to extract information from them.

There is one quest you can take to rescue the Son of a stormcloak supporter which ultimately involves storming the place (even as an imperial or altmer). There is a bugged part of the quest where you can ask Tullius to free the man, but even in modded games that have that section fixed you will still have storm the place.

I know. I did the quest. What's your point? Also, notice that the Legion knows about this place.

Now at this point it's easy to assume it's POW camp. But, you find in the prison cells there are also Khajiit, Argonian and Dunmer prisoners, of which are highly unlikely to be Talos worshippers (Dunmer commonly worship Daedra, Argonians worship the Hist and Sithis, Khajiit worship a variation of the old Aldmeri pantheon) or Stormcloak supporters (due to the fact the stormcloaks are resentful towards all non-nords).

What better choice for Imperial/Stormcloak spies? The Thalmor would immediately suspect nords, but other races have a better chance to acquire intelligence unnoticed. It could also be that these are just some poor sods who stumbled upon Thalmor secrets and are considered too dangerous to be left free.

This fits in with Altmers notorious superiority complex over other "lesser" races. What used to be an air of arrogance in earlier games has become a full blown racial supremacist culture.

Every race has a large share of bigots. The nords of Skyrim in particular. Saying an entire race has superiority complex is a bit racist. I've met plenty of nice high elves in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

There are a lot of Parralells between Nazis and the Thalmor. They aren't a literal reimagining of them in a fantasy setting, but they have a lot of components that smell like Fascist Nazi Germany, and I doubt that is a coincidence.

Lets' see:

Leader Worship? No. I didn't see any evidence of them worshipping a leader like the Germans worshipped Hitler. I don't even know the leader's name or title.

Systematic genocide? Again, I don't see it. A select few prisoners and selective executions of Talos Worshippers isn't genocide.

A vision of a pure elf-only Tamriel? Perhaps. It was a little unclear to me if that's their ultimate intention, so I'll leave this one.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

They have Justiciars who are constantly rooting out Talos Worship, who have the powers of Judge, Jury and Executioner. Basically the Thalmor Justiciars are Gestapo.

They sound more like the Spanish Inquisition to me, but fair enough, I see your point there.

There is also a Fort to the north east of Solitude where Thalmor "interrogate" Talos worshippers (a parallel to Jews) and Stormcloaks. It's placed in a suspiciously remote location behind the northernmost mountains at the very tip of Skyrim by the sea and, though they claim they have imperial permission, there are no imperial officers present. It is the only place inhabited solely by Thalmor with the exception of the Embassies restricted areas.

Jews weren't imprisoned in this manner. Jews were either restricted to the ghettos to die of sickness and/or starvation, sent to forced work camps, or sent to death camps. In short, they were treated like animals, not prisoners. I checked this place out, and what I understood is that these prisoners are held because the Thalmor consider them a risk to their cause (probably because they know certain Thalmor secrets) or because they want to extract information from them.

There is one quest you can take to rescue the Son of a stormcloak supporter which ultimately involves storming the place (even as an imperial or altmer). There is a bugged part of the quest where you can ask Tullius to free the man, but even in modded games that have that section fixed you will still have storm the place.

I know. I did the quest. What's your point? Also, notice that the Legion knows about this place.

Now at this point it's easy to assume it's POW camp. But, you find in the prison cells there are also Khajiit, Argonian and Dunmer prisoners, of which are highly unlikely to be Talos worshippers (Dunmer commonly worship Daedra, Argonians worship the Hist and Sithis, Khajiit worship a variation of the old Aldmeri pantheon) or Stormcloak supporters (due to the fact the stormcloaks are resentful towards all non-nords).

What better choice for Imperial/Stormcloak spies? The Thalmor would immediately suspect nords, but other races have a better chance to acquire intelligence unnoticed. It could also be that these are just some poor sods who stumbled upon Thalmor secrets and are considered too dangerous to be left free.

This fits in with Altmers notorious superiority complex over other "lesser" races. What used to be an air of arrogance in earlier games has become a full blown racial supremacist culture.

Every race has a large share of bigots. The nords of Skyrim in particular. Saying an entire race has superiority complex is a bit racist. I've met plenty of nice high elves in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

There are a lot of Parralells between Nazis and the Thalmor. They aren't a literal reimagining of them in a fantasy setting, but they have a lot of components that smell like Fascist Nazi Germany, and I doubt that is a coincidence.

Lets' see:

Leader Worship? No. I didn't see any evidence of them worshipping a leader like the Germans worshipped Hitler. I don't even know the leader's name or title.

Systematic genocide? Again, I don't see it. A select few prisoners and selective executions of Talos Worshippers isn't genocide.

A vision of a pure elf-only Tamriel? Perhaps. It was a little unclear to me if that's their ultimate intention, so I'll leave this one.

Again, it's not a direct parallel. The Thalmor embody a lot of element from Totalitarian regimes in real histoy, it doesn't entirely ape one. You can just as easily make the claim that the Thalmor are British Empire parallels during the plantations, where they sought to scourge the cultures of indigenous people like they did with Ireland.

The point is, they are Fantasy Nazis in as much the same way as the Helghast in Killzone are Space Nazis. I think you are taking the the observations way too seriously.