It's "that" Skyrim topic again...

[Cecilo]

Well, early on in the one of the quest chains, Delphine tells you about "Secret Purges" The Thalmor conduct on anyone who doesn't believe what the Thalmor believe. The Thalmor report them as "Accidents" so it is hard to tell who is telling the truth, but the Elf who helps you get into the Thalmor embassy seems to believe what happened to his family wasn't an accident.

Further, several Nords who sided with the Empire seem to see Ulfric as a power monger, which he seems to be. He was supposed to be a greybeard, he studied with them, learned the way of the voice, broke his commitment, which wouldn't be so bad but he doesn't follow the way of the voice, using Thu'um to murder people like the High King. Using it for personal gain. Of course the Nords that sided with the Empire aren't the most objective people in the world, but at least they can see the bigger picture.

On the other hand, while the ancient humans were indeed enslaved by the ancient elves, the ancient humans also committed acts of genocide, going so far as to almost push the snow elves to extinction, forcing them to ally themselves with another group of elves the Dwemer (Who are Dwarves, but still technically elves, just like the Orcs are technically elves). So I can see why the Thalmor hate Talos, who almost destroyed Elven kind on Tamriel, still you can't deny he is at least somewhat god like, since praying at his shrine gives you a blessing.

And as we can see from Oblivion, gods can just give their powers to someone else, in the case of Sheogorath who gives his godhood away to our characters from Oblivion.

In the end, it is really hard to judge Ulfric, the Empire promised him and his miltia that he could worship Talos again after freeing Markarth, they were forced to go back on their word because the Thalmor caught wind of it. Still, instead of attacking the Empire, they should be working with them, preparing for the next war, and preserving Talos's Empire for when they CAN worship Talos again.

 

[SajuukKhar]

but it was proven that Hammerfell alone could push back an entire force of Thalmor Wizards

Expect it wasn't.

I really don't understand how so many people misunderstand this point but
1. The Thalmor had stopped caring about Hammerfell half-way through the great war, and had shifted their focus on Cyrodiil.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

It appears now that the initial Aldmeri objective was in fact the conquest of Hammerfell, and that the invasion of Cyrodiil was intended only to pin down the Imperial legions while Hammerfell was overrun. However, the surprising initial success of Lord Naarifin's attack led the Thalmor to believe that the Empire was weaker than they had thought. The capture of the Imperial City itself and the complete overthrow of the Empire thus became their primary objective of the next two years.

2. The Redguards had help from a large number of Imperial vets, not only during the great war, but also after, who were "discharged" and left behind in Hammerfell by General Decianus, since he didn't want to abandon Hammerfell entirely.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174

3. After the Great War was over, The Thalmor forces in Hammerfell were a rather token occupation force.

4. Even after 5 years of guerrilla tactic warfare, that completely destroyed southern Hammerfell, the Redguards were only able to reach a standstill with The Thalmor forces.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated.

The Aldmeri Dominion left Hammerfell not because they couldn't stand up to the Redguards, but because they were instead focusing their troops on taking Cyrodiil in the next great war.

The Redguards did not valiantly push out The Thalmor, they only harassed The Thalmor until they deemed it wasn't worth their time to stay in Hammerfell because they wanted to be as prepared as possible for the next great war with The Empire and left.

Comparing the Redguards victory over The Thalmor, would be like comparing a Ulfric victory over Tullius's forces, who are made up almost entirely of local recruits, since The Emperor is keeping almost all of his main forces along the border of the Aldmeri Dominion.

Ulfric, in that situation, did not best the might of The Empire's legions, he bested a rather token, and under-supplied occupation force. The same is true of the Redguards and Thalmor.

He was supposed to be a greybeard

No he wasn't. One can study with the greybeards without being one, or promising to be one. You just have to show a talent for the voice.

 

[Cecilo]

but it was proven that Hammerfell alone could push back an entire force of Thalmor Wizards

Expect it wasn't.

I really don't understand how so many people misunderstand this point but
1. The Thalmor had stopped caring about Hammerfell half-way through the great war, and had shifted their focus on Cyrodiil.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

It appears now that the initial Aldmeri objective was in fact the conquest of Hammerfell, and that the invasion of Cyrodiil was intended only to pin down the Imperial legions while Hammerfell was overrun. However, the surprising initial success of Lord Naarifin's attack led the Thalmor to believe that the Empire was weaker than they had thought. The capture of the Imperial City itself and the complete overthrow of the Empire thus became their primary objective of the next two years.

2. The Redguards had help from a large number of Imperial vets, not only during the great war, but also after, who were "discharged" and left behind in Hammerfell by General Decianus, since he didn't want to abandon Hammerfell entirely.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174

3. After the Great War was over, The Thalmor forces in Hammerfell were a rather token occupation force.

4. Even after 5 years of guerrilla tactic warfare, that completely destroyed southern Hammerfell, the Redguards were only able to reach a standstill with The Thalmor forces.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated.

The Aldmeri Dominion left Hammerfell not because they couldn't stand up to the Redguards, but because they were instead focusing their troops on taking Cyrodiil in the next great war.

The Redguards did not valiantly push out The Thalmor, they only harassed The Thalmor until they deemed it wasn't worth their time to stay in Hammerfell because they wanted to be as prepared as possible for the next great war with The Empire and left.

Comparing the Redguards victory over The Thalmor, would be like comparing a Ulfric victory over Tullius's forces, who are made up almost entirely of local recruits, since The Emperor is keeping almost all of his main forces along the border of the Aldmeri Dominion.

Ulfric, in that situation, did not best the might of The Empire's legions, he bested a rather token, and under-supplied occupation force. The same is true of the Redguards and Thalmor.

He was supposed to be a greybeard

No he wasn't. One can study with the greybeards without being one, or promising to be one. You just have to show a talent for the voice.

Why would they teach anyone how to use the voice if they weren't going to follow the way of the voice, they make it very clear Thu'um is only to be used for the worship of the gods, except in the case of the Dragonborn who is the exception to the rule by virtue of being a gift from Akatosh.

Heck they threaten to stop teaching YOU the dragonborn more about the Voice if you don't start using the voice in the way they approve of until Paarthurnax tells them to let you up to the mountain top.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Why would they teach anyone how to use the voice if they weren't going to follow the way of the voice, they make it very clear Thu'um is only to be used for the worship of the gods, except in the case of the Dragonborn who is the exception to the rule by virtue of being a gift from Akatosh.

Heck they threaten to stop teaching YOU the dragonborn more about the Voice if you don't start using the voice in the way they approve of until Paarthurnax tells them to let you up to the mountain top.

Because while THEY believe the voice is only to be used in the worship of the gods, they understand that not everyone agrees, and they have a greater understanding of destiny.

No they don't, in fact, you can tell them you dont follow their beliefs and they go "well, we wish you would, but we understand your dragonborn and gotta do whatever Akatosh wanted you to do, so its ok". The only thing they say is that they dont want you to learn the dragonrend shout because they view it as evil, not to use your voice only in the worship of gods, and those are vastly different things.
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Also, its believed that Tullius, Ulfric, and the Dragonborn are all avatars of Talos/Lorkhan, so there's some mythic destiny bs going on here.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Okay so I know this topic has been done to death, but I just gotta do it. The endless argument over Stormcloaks VS Imperials. But one thing I've been noticing recently. People say that one of the Stormcloaks' biggest faults is that Ulfric is a puppet of the Thalmor. IMO what the Thalmor want is for the war to go on for as long as possible until both sides too weak to resist and then, BAM! Two birds with one stone. But as long as any side ends the conflict quickly enough then the Thalmor have a problem on their hands.

(Any other faults of the stormcloaks, racism, nationalism etc are free to be criticized however)

I always figured the Thalmor would conveniently start to find faults with the Stormcloaks, even if Ulfric uses his leverage to try and lessen inspections for Talos statuettes and shrines.

As far as I can understand the story (and I have five playthroughs under my belt), the only truly sensible option involves supporting the Empire. In their case, the fact that they're limited by the terms of the White-Gold Concordat is clear and presently stated. Remove the Thalmor and you remove the Concordat. Remove the Empire and you remove social equality in Skyrim and are more less rendered complicit in the kind of political coup that makes me think of Nicolae Ceaucescu.

So yeah. Legion for me.

 

[Lieju]

The only reason that Black Marsh is different is because of the Hist. The trees noticed all of these gates popping up and immediately went
'Shit, CODE RED. ALL ARGONIANS RETURN TO HOMELAND'
and it worked, because the Hist has a small sort of hivemind thing going on with the Argonians.

Isn't Black marsh also, well, a marsh? Filled with poisonous plants, violent predators, diseases and a lot of mud?
I'm not an expert on Elder Scrolls lore, but I got the impression that the advantage the Argonians had was that they were adapted to that environment, which most humanoid races were not, and that their advantage was mostly on their home-field.
(Although I don't know how much that helped against the daedra.)

Canonically, the Argonians of Black Marsh are in the best spot to take over pretty much everythin at this point. They're the only ones who not only didn't get blasted to hell durin the Oblivion crisis, they defended their land and sucessfully assaulted the Daedra on their home turf to the point the Daedra turn and ran while closin their own Oblivion portals.

I don't think anything (at least any of the humanoid kingdoms) could threaten the Argonians on their home turf, but could they be organised enough to hold onto the lands they managed to take over?

OT: I don't know enough of the bigger picture to know what the 'best' option would be, but in my playthrough I played an Argonian and she went 'none of this shit is any of my bussiness' and ran off to find some dragons.

 

[SajuukKhar]

(Although I don't know how much that helped against the daedra.)

The dangerous nature of the Argonian's homeland did little to help against the Daedra, as the Argonians went INTO the Daedric portals and killed Daedra there, rather then letting the Daedra enter into Black Marsh and fighting them on Nirn.

The Hist gave the argonians a special kind of sap, which caused them to go into a berserk rage, and when the daedric portals opened, the Argonians rushed in like a flood, murdering everything in their path, to the point that Dagon's own generals started closing the gates themselves out of fear.

 

[NearLifeExperience]

I don't care about any of their shit, all I know is that the Imperials tried to behead me without a reason to do so and they also seem to invade other people's lands with their insidious laws, acting as mere puppets to the Thalmor. That's more than enough reason for me to take the fight to them. Sure, the Stormcloaks are no saints either, but I gladly fought with them against the Imperial pigs, even if I couldn't give a rats ass about Ulfric or Talos or the xenofobic asshats that call themselves Nords.

 

[irok]

Yeah but isn't it very Nordic to go yeah we'll fight the imperials and we'll take you bastards on as well, we see that its a trap and we are going to plow through it, that was my take on it anyway

 

[Amaror]

My main argument against Ulric is that he is Hitler and i don't like Hitler.
Just think about it:
A charismatic Leader, leading a nation of obviously racist people, aiming to clean their country of the evil foreigners.
Yeah there's not concentration camps or anything, but even in nazi germany these were built AFTER Hitler took over, not before.

 

[Cecilo]

Why would they teach anyone how to use the voice if they weren't going to follow the way of the voice, they make it very clear Thu'um is only to be used for the worship of the gods, except in the case of the Dragonborn who is the exception to the rule by virtue of being a gift from Akatosh.

Heck they threaten to stop teaching YOU the dragonborn more about the Voice if you don't start using the voice in the way they approve of until Paarthurnax tells them to let you up to the mountain top.

Because while THEY believe the voice is only to be used in the worship of the gods, they understand that not everyone agrees, and they have a greater understanding of destiny.

No they don't, in fact, you can tell them you dont follow their beliefs and they go "well, we wish you would, but we understand your dragonborn and gotta do whatever Akatosh wanted you to do, so its ok". The only thing they say is that they dont want you to learn the dragonrend shout because they view it as evil, not to use your voice only in the worship of gods, and those are vastly different things.
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Also, its believed that Tullius, Ulfric, and the Dragonborn are all avatars of Talos/Lorkhan, so there's some mythic destiny bs going on here.

I find it very hard to believe the Greybeards who hold that the Voice should only be used in True Need would teach other people how to use the voice just.. because, especially for warfare, especially for murdering people. Like how religious groups in our real world do not teach others how to use their religion as a basis for committing crimes and murdering people.

" The main precept of the philosophy is that those who can wield the Voice should only do so in times of "True Need"."

"Due to the rarity of times of "True Need" and the nonviolent lifestyles of the Greybeard monks (the most famous practitioners of the Way of the Voice), the philosophy is generally viewed to be one of pacifism. Actually, the Way of the Voice teaches that using the thu'um for battle is merely "the least of its uses"."

 

[Dandark]

Only problem is I find it really hard to sympathize with some of the stormcloaks worse elements and I like the imperial Jarls more.

Very much this. Every time I try to make a Stormcloak character, Whiterun gets attacked and Balgruuf gets ousted and I just have to go over to Windhelm and murder every single one of them.

Whiterun's easily my favorite city and Balgruuf's the best Jarl of them all. Having to actually attack his city never sits right with me.

I think the Stormcloaks would be more appealing if you could convert Balgruff instead of having to attack him. He is supposed to be neutral and still be deciding which side he has to side with so how about having the dragonborn who helped defend his city from a dragon and earned his trust and respect advice him on who to side with?

Though I think it's also supposed to say something about Ulfric. He didn't want to join the war but Ulric finally forced him into it.

 

[shintakie10]

I don't think anything (at least any of the humanoid kingdoms) could threaten the Argonians on their home turf, but could they be organised enough to hold onto the lands they managed to take over?

The Argonians are almost entirely unified under a single banner at the moment. On top of that, if the Hist tree (trees?) tell the Argonians to do somethin, they fuckin do it no questions asked.

If the Hist trees feel that the other races are a threat, there isn't shit that could stop the Argonians from quite literally wipin out every single other faction.

 

[silver wolf009]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?

There's a quest in Whiterun to track down someone's son, who has been taken by the Thalmor for speaking out against their ban on Talos.

I won't give away too much, but you find him in a room with a, "Thalmor Torturer", with clear signs of interrogation and torture. Not a concentration camp, but still very Nazi like.

 

[optimusjamie]

Both sides have their pros and cons.
Imperials: They did try to remove you head, it's very easy to see them as Thalmor puppets and the Septims are long dead, but they need Skyrim if they're going to fight the Dominion- Nords are excellent warriors, and if they lose Skyrim, they risk losing High Rock as well.
Stormcloaks: It would make more sense for a Nord PC to join them for a number of reasons- however, they are, as mentioned before, xenophobic, racist, and IIRC Ulfric doesn't understand wartime economics (seriously- compare the state of Windhelm or Riften to Whiterun or Solitude).

As for which side's victory would benefit the Dominion- from my understanding, neither of them do. If the Imperials win, the Empire might stand a fighting chance- they gain a propaganda victory and have access to Nord warriors. If the Stormcloaks win, you have a still somewhat powerful Empire and a fanatical Nord army that will fight to the death. The Dominion's strategy is to weaken both sides by keeping the civil war going as long as possible, making destroying both (and eventually Mundus itself) much easier.

Even better, it's possible for the Dragonborn to never know about this, essentially being a massive spanner in the works to a plan the Dominion has been developing and implementing for several decades or possibly centuries, going back as far as the end of the Septim dynasty.

 

[DEAD34345]

I'm of the opinion that the Empire is functionally dead before Skyrim even begins. Even before the Great War they only controlled Cyrodiil, High-Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim, but the fact is that they lost the war. Forcing Skyrim to stick with the Empire now is less like unifying Tamriel to defend against the Aldmeri, and more like tying a boulder to High-Rock and Skyrim to drag them down into defeat with it.

Hell, Hammerfell was given to the Aldmeri Dominion by the Empire, and they've done alright seceding and driving the Aldmeri Dominion out themselves. I don't see why it would be any less advantageous for Skyrim to do the same. There are undercurrents of xenophobia in the Stormcloak rebellion, sure, but that's hardly surprising or even unjustified considering the situation. Other than that, they just seem the better option, whether you want religious freedom or just victory against the Dominion. After losing the war and getting weaker and weaker, the Empire has nothing to offer now but Thalmor oppression and defeat.

 

[Sansha]

Either a prolonged conflict, or a Stormcloak victory help the Dominion. If Skyrim secedes, then High Rock is completely cut off from Cyrodiil, and may secede as well. There will be no power large enough to oppose the Dominion.
The civil war is exactly what the Thalmor wanted when they wrote the Concordant.

Pretty much this. If there's one thing the elves have, it's intellect and cunning. They knew damn well the Nords would lose their shit over being told what to do and would start some shit. What happened in The Reach confirmed that, and that Ulfric and his people made such a big deal about it, to the point that the Elves were justified in wandering about Skyrim.

The Stormcloaks say it's all about gold, politics and cowardice. To me, it's common sense - doing what the Elves tell us to until such a time that we can formulate a plan to overcome them and drive them back to Summerset Isle. It's like I was told in Riverwood - everyone had their little shrine to Talos in secret, until Ulfric started agitating about it.

Finally, my personal perspective - at Helgen, I rushed over to the tower, where the Stormcloaks were taking shelter, to find them hanging around with their hands unbound. They didn't make any attempt to cut my bindings while we had the downtime sheltering in the tower. They then told me to go up the stairs, where I was nearly roasted by the dragon, and then out a hole in the wall to a frankly stupid leap of faith, I presume as bait. They didn't follow.
I found the Imperial guy who had a few minutes prior noted that I'm not on the list to go to execution, and his first priority was to get me across town to the keep, where we found the Stormcloak guy - weapon in hand getting his flee on - who wanted me to follow him again.

Get fucking real.

 

[Nosirrah]

Neither. They don't deserve to rule if neither of them want to be nice to the only guy who can kill the biggest threat.