Japan Ready To Ban "Gacha" Gameplay

[Thaliur]

Intrestingly enough, RuneScape implemented a mechanic quite similar to this about halfway through March.

Pissed off alot of players too.

What the hell? How could so many people be stupid enough to blow so much money on something they know is so unlikely just for some item in a game?

People in Japan are much more vulnerable to things like this. Im not sure why, but they are.

Are they really? I always assumed that they just have a lot more people, so 10% stupid people in each generation are a lot more in absolute numbers.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

In terms of blowing sizable amounts of money on sheer probability, I think I'll stick to football betting.

Also, this story is pretty interesting considering gambling is illegal in Japan. Unless this is a loophole or not really "proper gambling".

My money is on loophole. Since you don't win money, it isn't gambling. Not in the legal sense, anyway.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Spoiler: what happens in Vegas

[/spoiler]
Considering this is essentially gambling which is either entirely illegal or absurdly regulated in Japan (my friend says that the most they have is pachinko parlors, which may be illegal since he also said it was the Yakuza that owned them) there really is some strong precedence to be had here. I'm not actually that surprised about this, and I honestly expect other nations to start doing something similar as this becomes more common.

 

[Treblaine]

I don't see how this even qualifies as a "game".

Sure you can "lose" but there is no skill in this, even tangentially, it is pure chance - chance that you don't even know the odds of - and just throwing money at it. This is not a problem with video games, this is a problem with gambling masquerading as a video game.

Where is the competition, the pitting of skill and learned expertise? None. This is the worst kind of gambling, this is more like a cult as at least in a casino you get something of actual monetary value if you do win, here you get a virtual prize that isn't fun to use and you can't even claim the prestige of having earned it by skill. It's an obsession with fortune, luck, chance.

 

[Maze1125]

In terms of blowing sizable amounts of money on sheer probability, I think I'll stick to football betting.

Also, this story is pretty interesting considering gambling is illegal in Japan. Unless this is a loophole or not really "proper gambling".

As has already been said, if you don't win money, it's not illegal.
In fact, Japan generally has several casinos in every town, but you only win ball bearings which you trade in for items, such as food and other essentials, and so they're not illegal.

 

[Moagim]

It sounds quite a bit like the TF2 crate system. You pay $2.50 to get a key to open up a crate. That crate can have any number of strange weapons depending on the crate (virtually worthless), a couple of hats with about 25% chance of getting one of the two I believe (not worth much), and a 1% chance of getting an unusual hat, which are random between the majority of available hats and come in a variety of random effects. So the chances of getting the hat you want with the effect you want is about as low as you winning the lottery I'd guess. That's why some unusuals with better effects can go for hundreds of dollars.

So, that said, could this impact TF2 in Japan if it is in Japan?

The difference is in TF2 you're limited by the number of crates you find, so the effect is curbed by the game itself. By the sounds of it, the only limiting factor in this "gatcha" stuff is the amount of money the player has to spend.

Also, I assume that by saying "kids who were blowing hundreds or thousands of dollars every months on games", the author is referring to the total amount spent globally by the player base, not each individual player. Otherwise... what the hell am I doing in North America when I could be making millions every year in Japan!

 

[WindKnight]

What the hell? How could so many people be stupid enough to blow so much money on something they know is so unlikely just for some item in a game? I couldn't even imagine EA or Activision trying to pull something like that. I think even they would realise that people would just tell them to go fuck themselves.

technically, ME3 multiplayer runs on the gacha concept. You buy randomised upgrade packs that may give you a weapon or character class you want, but way well give you guff you never use. And the packs that offer better gear can be bought with both ingame creds you earn from playing, and real money.

 

[VanQ]

Someone needs to link that video of the guy that spent $700 on the Haruka gacha in Cinderella Girls and didn't get the card he needed to complete the set. Apparently, that's what sparked this whole series of events leading to the ban.

 

[wooty]

In terms of blowing sizable amounts of money on sheer probability, I think I'll stick to football betting.

Also, this story is pretty interesting considering gambling is illegal in Japan. Unless this is a loophole or not really "proper gambling".

As has already been said, if you don't win money, it's not illegal.
In fact, Japan generally has several casinos in every town, but you only win ball bearings which you trade in for items, such as food and other essentials, and so they're not illegal.

Good concept on the surface, but I guess you can still wind up broke at the end of the day.

Seen the ball bearing system used in the infamous pachinko parlours but I didn't stay around too long in them. The only thing your guaranteed to win in one of those places is lung cancer.

 

[Treblaine]

In terms of blowing sizable amounts of money on sheer probability, I think I'll stick to football betting.

Also, this story is pretty interesting considering gambling is illegal in Japan. Unless this is a loophole or not really "proper gambling".

As has already been said, if you don't win money, it's not illegal.
In fact, Japan generally has several casinos in every town, but you only win ball bearings which you trade in for items, such as food and other essentials, and so they're not illegal.

Is still think it's fraudulent in the same sense those psychic advisers are frauds. You give them money for predicting the future but there is only a small probability they'll be accurate to the point where it's a worthless guess or no better than using your own intuition of future events. And they can charge VAST sums of money for no reliable prophecy or removing a curse that never existed.

The scam here is implicit lies about the probability of winning and the value of the prize.

I know little about Japanese culture and society, I probably know enough to know I don't know anywhere near enough but I don't fully understand their broader attitudes towards chance and luck. If it is socially ingrained that when the odds are not known then it is good to assume the odds are in their favour - and they better hope it is that way as if that is not true they are "unlucky" or something and should seek to rectify that by - for example - spending vast sums of money to get the tokens that are "proof" of their personal luck.

In which case this is an scam as it exploits people's superstition and implicitly lies with the broader assumptions of personal luck/chance.

Again, I am not well versed on how Japanese society approaches chance, but I have detected a certain assumption of luck being associated as a personal characteristic and a positive one and if you aren't lucky then you are and inferior person that people won't want to hang around with.

I follow the science, the same dice has the same chance of landing on any given number whether thrown by a man who HAS BEEN lucky or one who has been unlucky. Any winning streak is an illusion for how of all the possibilities the winning streak will stand out the most and that winning streak will not necessarily continue. Chance of an outcome is determined by the action, not the worthiness of the beneficiary.

Is that what "Gacha" is selling? The illusion of providence?

It's telling that addictive gamblers keep a close record of how much money they have won yet spend so little of their winnings on actual material goods and services, they instead put most of their winnings back into the slot machines - I think - to help reaffirm they have the situation under control and they can "make" it win. Either by a system or by luck or by "I just gotta win". Could be Gatcha is doing the same thing but cutting out the winning and re-betting part, cutting directly to "proof of providence" with its virtual tokens?

I'm not against making a fair wager between two personal friends. But institutional gambling is far from a fair wager. I have been challenged to wagers and refused to accept them precisely because I know for a fact I have a huge chance of winning and it would be unfair for both of us to put down the same money. But institutionalised gambling asks everyone else to put the most money in and the house KNOWS it is most likely to win. That and it is of course a zero-sum game, no more wealth can come out of gambling than you can possibly put in. Video games you spend money employing people to turn worthless pixels into valuable art and entertainment.

 

[Treblaine]

So, that said, could this impact TF2 in Japan if it is in Japan?

I doubt it, as TF2's economy is distinct from this.

In the store you pay for what you get. Hats and weapons have a set price and when you pay you DEFINITELY get them.

The random-drop is a perk from playing the game normally. You can't make anything happen any quicker, you just enjoy the game (that you can play for free) and it just gives you stuff for playing a game that is inherently enjoyable. Remember, the default weapons are fun to use in such a varied game (it got a 92% metascore in 2007), the item drops give further variety to the gameplay.

In other words, you don't pay for the chance. In fact the chance is totally free. Just download the game and you are at a random and steady rate given new items.

The only paying is for specific guaranteed items, virtual items but still distinct upgrades to your account. You know what you are paying and you know what you are getting, that's simple market commerce. You may not agree with some prices, $5 for a hat may be too much for a virtual at, but it's purely cosmetic you don't have to pay and very few of the weapons are so rare (by random drop) and powerful you need them to be competitive. The best and most flexible weapons are usually the stock weapons. Even the Spy's enforcer, one of the few weapons that is a straight-upgrade, is now being tested in beta to be nerfed so it has an advantage but equivalent disadvantage.

 

[T'Generalissimo]

Is it just me, or does this seem like this might not address the underlying problem that a significant number kids in Japan apparantly have unfettered access to hundreds or thousands of dollars of money to blow every month. Stopping them from using it on whatever cheap, addictive thrills these games provide won't suddenly teach them the value of money.

 

[FoolKiller]

Umm... not to be defending the exploitative practices that these companies have but isn't paying money and hoping to receive a random and rarer valuable item the basis for things like Magic: The Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokemon (and back in the day, baseball) cards?

I can remember many friends dropping a lot of money each week to buy packs of Magic cards to hope they got some of the rare ones. How come no one ever stopped that practice? I find it amusing that one would be viewed as a hobby, the other a habit.

 

[VanQ]

Umm... not to be defending the exploitative practices that these companies have but isn't paying money and hoping to receive a random and rarer valuable item the basis for things like Magic: The Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokemon (and back in the day, baseball) cards?

I can remember many friends dropping a lot of money each week to buy packs of Magic cards to hope they got some of the rare ones. How come no one ever stopped that practice? I find it amusing that one would be viewed as a hobby, the other a habit.

Because in those packs you received physical goods and the world still doesn't accept that digital items can have real world value. The fact that RMT (Real Money Trading) is a bannable offense also enforces this.
If I remember correctly, Pokemon and Yugioh! card booster packs were guaranteed to have at least on Rare and the chance to get a foil was around 20%, whereas the gachas in these games have no such guarantee.
I have actually tried out some of these games personally and have even spent money on gachas when the reward was something I desired. I have received some extremely rare items before but usually you just get garbage cards that aren't even worth a single unit of currency in the actual game.

Is it just me, or does this seem like this might not address the underlying problem that a significant number kids in Japan apparantly have unfettered access to hundreds or thousands of dollars of money to blow every month. Stopping them from using it on whatever cheap, addictive thrills these games provide won't suddenly teach them the value of money.

Trust me, there is nothing cheap about the thrills in these games. The developers charge exorbatent amounts for a single roll. To the point that $10 day one DLC just looks like a bunch of small time whiners to me at this point. At least you know what you're getting for your money in that case.

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

What the hell? How could so many people be stupid enough to blow so much money on something they know is so unlikely just for some item in a game? I couldn't even imagine EA or Activision trying to pull something like that. I think even they would realise that people would just tell them to go fuck themselves.

technically, ME3 multiplayer runs on the gacha concept. You buy randomised upgrade packs that may give you a weapon or character class you want, but way well give you guff you never use. And the packs that offer better gear can be bought with both ingame creds you earn from playing, and real money.

The difference between what EA and this Gacha system is that even though you can spend real money it is entirely unnecessary to do so if you want to stay competitive. I can buy a spectre pack every 2 games on silver which takes a total of 30-40 minutes. Even if you don't get what you want you just play the game some more, which is what you would be doing anyway.

with Gacha it seems you NEED to buy dozens of these with real money and even if you do there is a good chance you'll be no better off.

Basically people paying real money for packs in ME3 are making the choice to get a pack quickly, whereas in Gacha games, the game IS buying these packs.

Umm... not to be defending the exploitative practices that these companies have but isn't paying money and hoping to receive a random and rarer valuable item the basis for things like Magic: The Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokemon (and back in the day, baseball) cards?

I can remember many friends dropping a lot of money each week to buy packs of Magic cards to hope they got some of the rare ones. How come no one ever stopped that practice? I find it amusing that one would be viewed as a hobby, the other a habit.

True but the main different being those are TRADING card games. The idea being you trade the ones you don't want with your friends. That's not to say that it isn't a tad exploitative but cards you don't want still retain value. There's been a few times where i've bought boosters for the explicit reason of having cards to trade with friends.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Because personal responsibility and parents actually raising their children is too hard, I guess.

 

[Lev The Red]

Good, next go for game companies that hire psychologists to use Skinner mechanics to increase revenues.

that's like... EVERY game that uses a skill or experience system.

 

[Treblaine]

Is it just me, or does this seem like this might not address the underlying problem that a significant number kids in Japan apparantly have unfettered access to hundreds or thousands of dollars of money to blow every month. Stopping them from using it on whatever cheap, addictive thrills these games provide won't suddenly teach them the value of money.

It's called "credit card application" and "lying about your age". You rank up huge debts and credit cards companies don't stop this because they know their parents will pay off the huge debts either willingly or by court order.

I don't think the parents are seriously giving the money to their kids every month, the kid did it secretly for months and then once discovered the parents are paying interest on debts for many months or years.

 

[Nerexor]

Wow. And I thought "buy your way to victory" games like Farmville and its ilk were bad. But seriously people... if you're going to waste money on a prize with tiny odds of winning, buy a damn lottery ticket or three. Cheaper, and if you win you get something REAL, not just a silly virtual object that is worth nothing.