Jedi vs others in new Star Wars MMO

[Da_Schwartz]

I've said this in other threads and this is where the gamne will run into some issues. MMO's thrive off of class balance and assuring that one class isn't dominant over another. I don't have an issue with it, but i can see how star wars fans and forum flamers will. Lots of mmo-ers play with the pure goal in mind of becoming "uber" And if they and the star wars junkies, get a watered dwon version of sith or jedi who start getting dropped by run of the mill commandos and smuglers then were going to have some serious problems. Add a touch of PvP community and let the flame thrive.

 

[Kinguendo]

Everyone knows that there are some pretty sucky Jedi out there, Anakin for example... three limbs in one swing, WHAAAAT?!? XD

Anyway, people seem to be forgetting that you said 1 on 1... so there would be no sneaking up, catching them off gaurd, they wouldnt be famous bounty hunters or war-heroes OR assassin droids built by Revan and some people saying that Jedi's are bound by the same rules as other mortals... which they clearly arent, this is The Old Republic... THE most powerful Jedi and Sith existed during this time period, Revan, Nihilous, Sion, Malak, Bastilla (I guess), The Exile, etc. I mean come on, Nihilous consumes entire planets, Sion can never die (Until he decided to end himself) and Revan! Come on, the greatest Sith and Jedi in one person. He single handedly took control and won the Mandalorian war, then took the Republic to the brink of destruction (He would have ended it if he wasnt distracted by 3 jedi and then shot by MASSIVE canons which didnt even kill him!) and then after stopping Malak and his empire he went to the Outer Rim on his own to battle the True Sith... that are apparently know in this MMO. So I dont see how they could, but the other classes probably will be able to beat Jedi.

 

[Pots]

Everyone knows that there are some pretty sucky Jedi out there, Anakin for example... three limbs in one swing, WHAAAAT?!? XD

Anyway, people seem to be forgetting that you said 1 on 1... so there would be no sneaking up, catching them off gaurd, they wouldnt be famous bounty hunters or war-heroes OR assassin droids built by Revan and some people saying that Jedi's are bound by the same rules as other mortals... which they clearly arent, this is The Old Republic... THE most powerful Jedi and Sith existed during this time period, Revan, Nihilous, Sion, Malak, Bastilla (I guess), The Exile, etc. I mean come on, Nihilous consumes entire planets, Sion can never die (Until he decided to end himself) and Revan! Come on, the greatest Sith and Jedi in one person. He single handedly took control and won the Mandalorian war, then took the Republic to the brink of destruction (He would have ended it if he wasnt distracted by 3 jedi and then shot by MASSIVE canons which didnt even kill him!) and then after stopping Malak and his empire he went to the Outer Rim on his own to battle the True Sith... that are apparently know in this MMO. So I dont see how they could, but the other classes probably will be able to beat Jedi.

I would have to agree with this. Jedi\Sith are most powerful at this time period but will still be killed by normal guys. Which I guess is a good thing since we want people to be playing other classes besides Jedi\Sith.

Da_Schwartz has a good point too. I think that when a lot of people see how weak the Jedi\Sith classes are they will start complaining to the devs who will in turn buff Jedi\Sith. Of course this is if the Force Users aren't overpowered to begin with.

 

[Piping Rock]

Anyone who thinks Jedi\Sith will not be OP'd are just fools. Even if I had the option to raise only one force ability it would still rock anyone else who isn't a force user. SWG had the right idea when it was first released you have to make it very rare to be a Jedi. I'm not exactly sure when the time period is for this game but with the trailer having all those Jedi\Sith its safe to assume everyone and their mother will be a force user. Sure a bunch of bounty Hunters or troopers or whatever can gang up on you but 1 on 1 no chance in hell.

 

[Derpus von Herpus]

This is the only version of the .gif I could find, but this is a scene from Clone Wars: The Animated Series.

Commander Cody was what I would consider a "hero", and in all the class interviews I've read the devs always mention that if you play as a non-jedi, you are playing a heroic character.

Try and tell me that fellow couldn't take out a Jedi and will call you a liar.

Edit: Christ Jesus I wish I could find the original of this gif. The more I watch it, the more I lol.

 

[Piping Rock]

This is the only version of the .gif I could find, but this is a scene from Clone Wars: The Animated Series.

Commander Cody was what I would consider a "hero", and in all the class interviews I've read the devs always mention that if you play as a non-jedi, you are playing a heroic character.

Try and tell me that fellow couldn't take out a Jedi and will call you a liar.

I don't see any Jedi's in that gif.
--Cody walks up to Sith Lord. Sith Lord uses Choke, Cody dies.--
--Cody is far away from Sith Lord, starts shooting blaster rounds. Sith deflects without even moving forward. Cody throws a grenade and shoots a rocket with his leet aiming skills. Sith Lord force pushs grenade and rocket back at Cody. Cody dies.--

 

[Derpus von Herpus]

I don't see any Jedi in that gif.
--Cody walks up to Sith Lord. Sith Lord uses Choke, Cody dies.--
--Cody is far away from Sith Lord, starts shooting blaster rounds. Sith deflects without even moving forward. Cody throws a grenade and shoots a rocket with his leet aiming skills. Sith Lord force pushs grenade and rocket back at Cody. Cody dies.--

Have you ever been choked out? I do not claim to have any military training whatsoever, and I have been choked out before. You will not just forget how to use your weapons. Now, let's consider a warrior like Cody, whose very existence has been for battle, and I would assume that being choked is merely an obstacle, not death. And, if all this speculation is true, Sith Lord uses Choke, Cody uses Gun, Sith Lord either lets go to deflect the bolt, or catches it with his body.

As far as ranged combat goes, if you have read any of the books, you'll know that not every Jedi is skilled in every single aspect of the Force. Some have great telekinesis but poor combat. Some are masters of lightsaber combat and deflection, but couldn't choke the life out of a caterpillar.

I'm not trying to say "NO UR WRONG AND I'M RITE" but I'm just saying, you know? The possibilities are there.

Plus, Commander Cody is one hundred percent born and bred badass.

 

[EMFCRACKSHOT]

The jedi and sith are not the only ones who can use force powers in the star wars universe.
I think an experienced mandalorian could take a jedi quite easily. I'm sure bioware will take such things into account. There will probably be all kinds of class specific special abilities and things to balance it all out as well as tech such as personal shields and advanced weapons

 

[Piping Rock]

I don't see any Jedi in that gif.
--Cody walks up to Sith Lord. Sith Lord uses Choke, Cody dies.--
--Cody is far away from Sith Lord, starts shooting blaster rounds. Sith deflects without even moving forward. Cody throws a grenade and shoots a rocket with his leet aiming skills. Sith Lord force pushs grenade and rocket back at Cody. Cody dies.--

Have you ever been choked out? I do not claim to have any military training whatsoever, and I have been choked out before. You will not just forget how to use your weapons. Now, let's consider a warrior like Cody, whose very existence has been for battle, and I would assume that being choked is merely an obstacle, not death. And, if all this speculation is true, Sith Lord uses Choke, Cody uses Gun, Sith Lord either lets go to deflect the bolt, or catches it with his body.

As far as ranged combat goes, if you have read any of the books, you'll know that not every Jedi is skilled in every single aspect of the Force. Some have great telekinesis but poor combat. Some are masters of lightsaber combat and deflection, but couldn't choke the life out of a caterpillar.

I'm not trying to say "NO UR WRONG AND I'M RITE" but I'm just saying, you know? The possibilities are there.

Plus, Commander Cody is one hundred percent born and bred badass.

Okay, ok. Maybe just maybe you might have a point there. I still think that defelecting shots and using force push are the most genreic force abilites out there. Your right about the choking though. I guess I should throw in force lightning or a saber throw while your dangling with no air in your lungs

 

[Piping Rock]

The jedi and sith are not the only ones who can use force powers in the star wars universe.
I think an experienced mandalorian could take a jedi quite easily. I'm sure bioware will take such things into account. There will probably be all kinds of class specific special abilities and things to balance it all out as well as tech such as personal shields and advanced weapons

Hrm... Mandalorian wars goes something like this I believe. Mandalorians are badass destroying places with no defense or troops. They get strong enough to take on Elite Troopers and other classes. Jedi join war, war ends. Mandalorians lose. :}

 

[Thegoodfriar]

BTW there are plenty of examples of individuals capable of fighting against Jedi with varying results.

For example, both Bobba and Jango Fett had both killed Jedi at some point in their respective careers. And according to most pen and paper games, mass amounts of just about anything is capable of killing them as well.

 

[EMFCRACKSHOT]

The jedi and sith are not the only ones who can use force powers in the star wars universe.
I think an experienced mandalorian could take a jedi quite easily. I'm sure bioware will take such things into account. There will probably be all kinds of class specific special abilities and things to balance it all out as well as tech such as personal shields and advanced weapons

Hrm... Mandalorian wars goes something like this I believe. Mandalorians are badass destroying places with no defense or troops. They get strong enough to take on Elite Troopers and other classes. Jedi join war, war ends. Mandalorians lose. :}

As i seem to remember, the effect the jedi had on the mandalorian war was more in terms of leadership than actual combat. They rallied the republic froces and used innovaive new tactics to beat the mandalorians. Then, with loads of jedi dead, the rest join revan and start the jedi civil war.
1v1, many mandalorians killed jedi. I;m sure canderous would have killed quite a few. People seem to forget there are ways of defending yourself from force powers and lessening the damage they do and lightsabers are not the ultimate weapon people think they are.

Back on topic, maybe they could do what they did with kotor. You dont start out as a jedi, but everyone has the chance to unlock force powers and lightsabers and so on as they advance in level

I am so going to play as a mandalorian if i can. If i cant i don't see much point in buying the game

 

[Piping Rock]

BTW there are plenty of examples of individuals capable of fighting against Jedi with varying results.

For example, both Bobba and Jango Fett had both killed Jedi at some point in their respective careers. And according to most pen and paper games, mass amounts of just about anything is capable of killing them as well.

I never saw Bobba kill a Jedi. I did see him fall into a sarlack pit though. Jango Fett got a lucky shot off and killed one jedi hitting him in the back. One minute later his head was rolling towards his son. Like has been said, in a "real world" type setting sure I think anything could kill a Jedi. In a video game though I think not.

 

[Piping Rock]

The jedi and sith are not the only ones who can use force powers in the star wars universe.
I think an experienced mandalorian could take a jedi quite easily. I'm sure bioware will take such things into account. There will probably be all kinds of class specific special abilities and things to balance it all out as well as tech such as personal shields and advanced weapons

Hrm... Mandalorian wars goes something like this I believe. Mandalorians are badass destroying places with no defense or troops. They get strong enough to take on Elite Troopers and other classes. Jedi join war, war ends. Mandalorians lose. :}

As i seem to remember, the effect the jedi had on the mandalorian war was more in terms of leadership than actual combat. They rallied the republic froces and used innovaive new tactics to beat the mandalorians. Then, with loads of jedi dead, the rest join revan and start the jedi civil war.
1v1, many mandalorians killed jedi. I;m sure canderous would have killed quite a few. People seem to forget there are ways of defending yourself from force powers and lessening the damage they do and lightsabers are not the ultimate weapon people think they are.

Back on topic, maybe they could do what they did with kotor. You dont start out as a jedi, but everyone has the chance to unlock force powers and lightsabers and so on as they advance in level

I am so going to play as a mandalorian if i can. If i cant i don't see much point in buying the game

I didn't know "loads of Jedi" died.
What you say about everyone being able to advance and unlock force powers seems like the only way to me to even the odds. That or every class not force sensitive can raise a force resistance skill or something along those lines.

 

[Thegoodfriar]

BTW there are plenty of examples of individuals capable of fighting against Jedi with varying results.

For example, both Bobba and Jango Fett had both killed Jedi at some point in their respective careers. And according to most pen and paper games, mass amounts of just about anything is capable of killing them as well.

I never saw Bobba kill a Jedi. I did see him fall into a sarlack pit though. Jango Fett got a lucky shot off and killed one jedi hitting him in the back. One minute later his head was rolling towards his son. Like has been said, in a "real world" type setting sure I think anything could kill a Jedi. In a video game though I think not.

I'm not trying to say that Bobba or Jango could defeat any and all Jedi. But there are a lot of different power levels of a Jedi.

Padawans or Sith Apprentices (Forgive my spelling) are really strong, and capable of taking on a whole squad of standard infantry. But against a skilled opponent such as the HK droids or the Imperial Assassin droids, they will have their arms full.

Jedi Knights and Sith whatever; these are practically unbeatable by any non-force sensitive warrior.

And Finally Jedi Masters and Sith Lords; are for all intensive purposes are only killable by each other.

That isn't even to say that there isn't a force sensitive bounty hunter who could have killed people of that immense strength, perhaps Mandelor could have or another warrior of that strength.

Anyways, yes; depending on the strength of the force warrior, they can be killed by a non-force sensitive person...

And if any other arguments come up all I have to say is "Order 66".

 

[Piping Rock]

Anyways, yes; depending on the strength of the force warrior, they can be killed by a non-force sensitive person...

And if any other arguments come up all I have to say is "Order 66".

So at lvl 1-10 jedi\sith or whatever a lowbie is in this MMO will get killed by a high lvl (20-40)non-force sensitive class. :}

Order 66 means nothing. Thats whole platoons of troops shooting jedi in the back.

 

[HyenaThePirate]

Snip

Ok, so he only killed one Jedi. Although looking back at it, that Jedi seems to be one of the jedi council.

I know this is really nerdy but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ebnBZIpESY&feature=related

Pause that video at 2:47

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMqLoIUnrgc&feature=related

Pause that video at 3:07

They look awfully similar to me, although I could be wrong. It seems like the guy that Jengo killed wasn't a noob Jedi but rather one of the most powerful. Plus, Jengo set Windu on fire for a little bit and made him run away and Windu was only able to take down Jengo after while he was distracted with the dinosaur thing, and he's supposed to be one of the best Jedi there is.

As for the Obi Wan thing, I fail to see how Jengo lost. he threw Obi wan over the edge, and Boba behind the cannon didn't really help that much. He only blew up at ObiWan when he was already down on the ground. He didn't do shit.

Anyway, ignoring all this, the Jedi in the original movies aren't that powerful either. Vader dies from a little bit of electricity, The Emperor couldn't even notice that Darth Vader was going to throw him off the edge (you'd think he should be able to) and Yoda died of old age. The Jedi aren't that powerful in the movies. It's the video games (mostly) that make the Jedi seem so overpowered, usually because they are the main characters. The main characters in single player video games are always more powerful than anything else, especially other characters from the cannon, for any game series.

Obviously a Halo MMO wouldn't make the Spartan characters as powerful as the Mastercheif, that wouldn't be fair or balanced. For the same reason a star wars MMO isn't going to make the Jedi as powerful as the main character in the Force Unleashed (whatever his name is). I'd imagine that the Jedi in TOR will be more similar to the way Jedi's are, than there video game representatives.

lol 2 things i discerned from that video..

1. I saw a handful of Jedi pwning an arena FILLED with hundreds of droids..
2. You can really see that the majority of that scene was filmed in front of a green screen. lol

I suppose you are right that the jedi Jango killed was probably not some Padawan, but I'm not sure that they were a decided master either... he just drops down, lights up his saber, and is so centered in on killing Dooku that he doesnt even NOTICE jango standing RIGHT THERE.
Yet every other Jedi seems more than capable of blocking blaster fire from every direction, although I'll give you that the heroes of the saga are decidedly better than your average Jedi.

Still I only see this being a better example that killing a Jedi normally would require a greater amount of effort from the soldier/bounty hunter than it would for the Jedi, and in most scenarios (not all, but most) if it's a 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 battle where the Jedi already knows you are there, the Jedi will usually win unless the bounty hunter has some amazing trick they planned in advance or are lucky enough to think on their feet fast enough to take advantage of a split-second situation.

I'm sure that they will balance the game to make it fun, but I'm just wondering how many people WON'T want to be a Jedi. I mean, sure being a bounty hunter sounds cool, but why not be a Jedi BOUNTY HUNTER? But everyone has things they like, so maybe there are those players who would rather fly around using a flame thrower than using force powers.
It's like in Street Fighter... I'm sure SOMEONE out there loves using Dan and thinks he's the best character in the game... somewhere.

 

[Rhob Anybody]

I'm going to throw something in here based on my playing of Kotor and thats that it is very loosely based on the D&D 3.5 ed ruleset. Having also played a lot of NWN and DDO I would expect that Jedi will be treated pretty much the same as casters in those games. This will mean that the "normal" classes like smuggler and bounty hunter will be better at low lvls (being more like the fighter or rogue/ranger classes in those games) whilst the Jedi will be weak at low lvl but become very powerful later on (like casters/clerics).

The normal rule of thumb with the 3.5 rulset is that the amount of effort put into lvling your class has an almost direct counter with how powerful they are end game. In DDO for example the sorc is probably the hardest character to play till you get to lvl 10+ where upon he starts to become one of the most powerful characters in game. By lvl 14 even a badly rolled sorc is very hard to kill. The fighter on the other hand is almost unkillable till you get to lvl 6+ where upon he starts to struggle. By lvl 10 the average fighter needs at least a little help with most mobs at his lvl.

The major factor of all the games mentioned so far though is that each class has big advantages over the others in certain areas. At high lvl the jedi (caster) will most likely be the ultimate dps character, the trooper (fighter)will more than likely be needed to tank and hold agro whilst the smuggler (rogue) will almost certainly be needed for ranged dps and possibly skills.

 

[Pots]

Snip

It's like in Street Fighter... I'm sure SOMEONE out there loves using Dan and thinks he's the best character in the game... somewhere.

Thats funny that you said that. I love Dan and think he is the best character ever.
On topic, I think they will try their hardest to balance the game. Which will just mean really weak Jedi\Siths or maybe superhuman Bounty Hunters, Troopers, and whatever else they are making classes.

 

[Pots]

The major factor of all the games mentioned so far though is that each class has big advantages over the others in certain areas. At high lvl the jedi (caster) will most likely be the ultimate dps character, the trooper (fighter)will more than likely be needed to tank and hold agro whilst the smuggler (rogue) will almost certainly be needed for ranged dps and possibly skills.

Makes a lot of sense. So basically at end game Jedi\Sith unbeatable 1v1. Thats pretty much what I expected, though I hope people playing the other classes won't yell nerf!