Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

[Edl01]

I'd like to complain a bit about the homophobia example given, since it is a JRPG I think it is a very poor example as you have to remember that it is from Japan which is a country different to the USA in many ways.
Gay characters are found a lot in JRPGs, as over in Japan homosexuality is more accepted by society. I actually feel that it is "because" they are accepted that Japanese games don't get flack for the stereotypes; it is seen as more of a joke than an insult. As such it is not homophobic, as for it to be homophobic it would have to be actually insulting gay people which it likely isn't.

Am I making sense here? I don't think I am.

______________________

Since so many people brung up the tomb raider debate I feel I should throw in my two cents.
I feel the whole argument is absolutely ridiculous. Why? Because in books, movies, heck I've seen anime do rape scenes and people are perfectly okay with it. It is a way to evoke drama, to make a character become tragic and is often a way to develop a female character for better or for worse.
If this wasn't a video game then in my opinion no one would have a problem with the scene, but video games are seen as a child?s medium, it has rarely come out of its shell to explore deeper topics like this, to the point that when it tries people get afraid and lash out.

 

[JudgeGame]

I don't think anybody has ever argued the ponies aren't sexualized. They are given giant eyes, exagerated eyelashes

Last time I checked, those are traits associated with youth and innocence in cartoons.

See: Most Disney movies.

and quaint, feminine gestures.

I hate to break it to you, but I've yet to meet a Brony who has ever thought "corrrr, I'm going to clop myself sore to those quaint feminine gestures".

The problem isn't within the intention of the animators and writers, but rather your own perception of a children's cartoon.

Look. We all know why bronies get the stick. I have heard no end of comments from people who have never even watched the show that the ponies look too sexy and that they find that disturbing. I really didn't care until I couldn't ignore the outrage any longer. It's pretty much universally accepted that the ponies in MLP are a bit too sexy.

And in answer to your "youth and innocence" argument.

See: Infantilization of female sexuality. A very old and well established concept.

 

[MrBaskerville]

I have a hard time convincing myself this question even deserves an answer.

The entire zombie genre dehumanizes people. Literally. It's horror, it's kind of the point. If you think all but a very few men actually get off on this then maybe you are the sick one.

Intent is important.

But still, they expect you to display that thing in your living room... It´s not meant to be hidden away in a dusty cupboard where it belongs. Sexualised or not, it´s still a decapitated corpse. If it had a head it wouldn´t be as fucked up.

I don´t really mind things like this, but sometimes i think it´s okay to use your common sense and think: "should we make this? is this a good idea?". There´s nothing wrong in thinking, that isn´t censorship, that´s just being rational. It´s the same with the quest in Skyrim and some of the more creepy Hitman trailers (and the facebook thing...). Now that the things exist, it probably isn´t the end of civilization, and it probably doesn´t ruin Skyrim or Hitman, but it´s still worth discussing and it´s still worth thinking twice whenever you get a "clever" idea.

 

[JudgeGame]

Oh Joy! Another week wasted on listening to this preening, self-important git preaching his political ideology at us. I really, really love it when that happens.

You could go and listen to somebody else, you know? Are you into masochism?

Also, are you going for a record ban? Good luck with that.

 

[Hagi]

I don't think anybody has ever argued the ponies aren't sexualized. They are given giant eyes, exagerated eyelashes

Last time I checked, those are traits associated with youth and innocence in cartoons.

See: Most Disney movies.

and quaint, feminine gestures.

I hate to break it to you, but I've yet to meet a Brony who has ever thought "corrrr, I'm going to clop myself sore to those quaint feminine gestures".

The problem isn't within the intention of the animators and writers, but rather your own perception of a children's cartoon.

Look. We all know why bronies get the stick. I have heard no end of comments from people who have never even watched the show that the ponies look too sexy and that they find that disturbing. I really didn't care until I couldn't ignore the outrage any longer. It's pretty much universally accepted that the ponies in MLP are a bit too sexy.

And in answer to your "youth and innocence" argument.

See: Infantilization of female sexuality. A very old and well established concept.

To be honest dude I don't think it's so much universally accepted as your own personal problem.

If you find yourself aroused watching MLP then well... that's your business, but please don't project it onto everyone else.

 

[JudgeGame]

I don't think anybody has ever argued the ponies aren't sexualized. They are given giant eyes, exagerated eyelashes

Last time I checked, those are traits associated with youth and innocence in cartoons.

See: Most Disney movies.

and quaint, feminine gestures.

I hate to break it to you, but I've yet to meet a Brony who has ever thought "corrrr, I'm going to clop myself sore to those quaint feminine gestures".

The problem isn't within the intention of the animators and writers, but rather your own perception of a children's cartoon.

Look. We all know why bronies get the stick. I have heard no end of comments from people who have never even watched the show that the ponies look too sexy and that they find that disturbing. I really didn't care until I couldn't ignore the outrage any longer. It's pretty much universally accepted that the ponies in MLP are a bit too sexy.

And in answer to your "youth and innocence" argument.

See: Infantilization of female sexuality. A very old and well established concept.

To be honest dude I don't think it's so much universally accepted as your own personal problem.

If you find yourself aroused watching MLP then well... that's your business, but please don't project it onto everyone else.

I suppose I should say the same to you. I have no problems with how you decide to deal with your sexuality, but I'd refrain from elaborating on your "physical attraction =! sexual attraction" theory, it isn't going anywhere. Take it as a word of advice.

 

[MatsVS]

See, that's the problem with this video. It doesn't take the side of having these issues open to debate. It takes the side of having these issues open to debate but only for everyone who agrees that they're sexist/racist/homophobic.

If someone attempts to silence your point of view then the appropriate reaction is to ignore them, you have a right to your opinion that nobody can take away. The appropriate reaction is not to attempt to silence them in turn, they also have a right to their opinion that you can't take away.

This is just not true, I think. This video takes the side of those who agree that there is a dialogue here worth having. Calling out the silencers as just that, silencers, is not the same as being a silencer in turn. This is something that simply needs to happen to foster a healthy debate that a HUGE part of the video game audience thinks need to be had.

(1)Except Sterling often changes his opinion about as fast as he changes his underpants and is very often deliberately provocative and using the "hot button issues" as a means to gain hits. He does or rather did this with his reviews too (giving games their highest or lowest score on Metacritic for the sole reason of getting attention) and has even admitted to it in the past, since the thing he craves most is the click-baity attention he gets from it and additional shows and columns promising him even more money.
That's why I would take what he says with a huge grain of salt every time.

(2)There is no side that is categorically "correct", there is just different opinions clashing against each other.
If you are trying to discuss a game being flawed you can only do that by reffering to its gameplay mechanics, plot mechanisms, the strength of the characterization etc. and not via matters of taste or what a certain subset of people considers "offensive". People will have to realize at some point that even games like Dead or Alive: Volleyball or Postal 2 have a reason to exist, and if there's no demand for them the market will reject them and they won't be made anymore. Games are entertainment foremost and not edutainment or otherwise obliged to adhere to and make moral statements for the benefit of all civilization.

(3)If everyone got on his respective soapbox in regards to what he doesn't "like" or what he finds "offensive" in regards to books, movies or music as much as our dear "gaming journalists" seem to do in regards to games lately there'd be shit for choice and entire music/movie genres wouldn't exist to begin with. (from zombie, splatter to any movies containing any sexual content to rap, heavy metal, techno, jazz and possibly even rock - all of these things were (and often still are) considered the devils work at some point)

(1) Even if this was true, and it very well may be, I don't know anything about Mr. Sterling's motivations for doing anything, it would only really be relevant if his concrete point failed to hold water. They don't. His arguments are basically the same that dedicated feminist blogs have been saying for years, re-appropriated for a larger audience. Which is fine, regardless of the motivations behind them, and I have no reason to think that they are anything but noble, because these are points that are sound and needs to be heard and talked about.

(2) Only one side actively tries to subdue and the discussion and silence those they see as "opposition", though, and that is really the root problem. Gamers as a sub-culture should not be afraid to look at games with a critical eye, and you are right, games like DoA & Postal 2 have a reason to exist, but let's not pretend that they are something they are not. They're masturbatory material and, ehhr, I have no idea what Postal is about. I'll assume it's a violence simulator. And that's fine! Let's just not pretend it's anything it's not, and don't try to silence those who wish to analyse how those games fit into the zeitgeist.

(3) I can only speak to blogosphere that deals with literature, fiction mainly, but trust me, the activists who argue for a more critical view of modern fiction as it relates to gender roles, inclusivity, etc, are just as active there, if not more. And fiction is doing just fine, and many many awesome writers have been given the spotlight who would otherwise have remained anonymous. Only good things come from this.

 

[Hagi]

I don't think anybody has ever argued the ponies aren't sexualized. They are given giant eyes, exagerated eyelashes

Last time I checked, those are traits associated with youth and innocence in cartoons.

See: Most Disney movies.

and quaint, feminine gestures.

I hate to break it to you, but I've yet to meet a Brony who has ever thought "corrrr, I'm going to clop myself sore to those quaint feminine gestures".

The problem isn't within the intention of the animators and writers, but rather your own perception of a children's cartoon.

Look. We all know why bronies get the stick. I have heard no end of comments from people who have never even watched the show that the ponies look too sexy and that they find that disturbing. I really didn't care until I couldn't ignore the outrage any longer. It's pretty much universally accepted that the ponies in MLP are a bit too sexy.

And in answer to your "youth and innocence" argument.

See: Infantilization of female sexuality. A very old and well established concept.

To be honest dude I don't think it's so much universally accepted as your own personal problem.

If you find yourself aroused watching MLP then well... that's your business, but please don't project it onto everyone else.

I suppose I should say the same to you. I have no problems with how you decide to deal with your sexuality, but I'd refrain from elaborating on your "physical attraction =! sexual attraction" theory, it isn't going anywhere. Take it as a word of advice.

Yes, it's not like it's in the dictionary or something...

Nor is it specifically mentioned right at the start of the Wikipedia article on physical attractiveness.

Heh, some wild idea I had there...

 

[SecsNoises]

Look. We all know why bronies get the stick. I have heard no end of comments from people who have never even watched the show that the ponies look too sexy and that they find that disturbing. I really didn't care until I couldn't ignore the outrage any longer.

Generally, the people who attack bronies having never watched the show are the ones who take the extremely shallow view "it's a cartoon for little girls, therefore the men who watch it must be deranged individuals"; in the more extreme cases, we're all just paedophiles using our like of the show as bait.

I find it's easier not to entertain these people, much less allow them to ruin our enjoyment of the show.

It's pretty much universally accepted that the ponies in MLP are a bit too sexy.

By who exactly? Are you saying that the writers and animators designed the characters to be sexy to Bronies?

Here is Fluttershy during S01E01, aired before the internet following had taken off -

Now here is her in the last episode -

See? Absolutely no change in her character design; given that the success of the show with adult males was entirely unexpected, I think we can conclude from this she was never designed to be sexually appealing.

---

And yes, I am aware there are many sexualized pictures of the ponies around the internet. But saying they make the show - and the intention of the writers - perverse is false -

Firstly, there are pornographic fan drawings of pretty much every character out there. In truth, MLP is no worse than any other popular show/game/movie in that regard.

Secondly, to say that erotic fan-made media makes MLP sexualized by intention of the writers is like downloading several X-rated mods and saying Skyrim's world is hyper-sexualized. That content only exists if you deliberately expose yourself to it; it is in no way affiliated with the writers.

And in answer to your "youth and innocence" argument.

See: Infantilization of female sexuality. A very old and well established concept.

Here is what I said again: Last time I checked, those are traits associated with youth and innocence in cartoons.

As in, when a person designs a character with large eyes and big eyelashes, they tend to do so with portraying innocence in mind, as such is reflected by the character's personality.

I think in the context of a children's show, it's taking it a step too far to say "Ermagawd! Infantilization of female sexuality!".

If you have a problem with that point, I will refer you to here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor

 

[Epona]

Acceptance is the first step towards change. So accepting this is asking for our games to change (and that can be seen as taken away).

 

[wizzy555]

Yes, it's not like it's in the dictionary or something...

Nor is it specifically mentioned right at the start of the Wikipedia article on physical attractiveness.

Heh, some wild idea I had there...

Shhhhhhh feminist philosophy single handed over turns, Plato, Kant and Dewey's aesthetics beyond all retort. Didn't you know that?

[sarcasm]

 

[Devin Barker]

i am somehow blissfully ignorent of the problems with earthworm jims creator... any one have a link to anything i can read up on?

I don't have a link, but the skinny is that Doug TenNapel has a career as a far right wing media pundit and radio personality. As such, he makes no secret of his views on many of the familiar, controversial issues de jour. It doesn't stop him making good games though. In fact, in some ways, it has helped his games; The Neverhood, for instance, is a brilliant, unique title that is largely inspired by bible stories and his religious upbringing.

ah right on, good to have context. yah it probably wont stop me from playing his games (to be honest im sure he does not see a whole lot of money per unit sold) sux the dude is a d-bat though

 

[Wolcik]

Valid points and all, but I what I want to say that after hearing the screamy monologue for some time the more varied voice acting at the end cracks me up - "it's a thing" was so different from all the rest that I was surprised and entertain in a humorous way.

 

[Hagi]

See, that's the problem with this video. It doesn't take the side of having these issues open to debate. It takes the side of having these issues open to debate but only for everyone who agrees that they're sexist/racist/homophobic.

If someone attempts to silence your point of view then the appropriate reaction is to ignore them, you have a right to your opinion that nobody can take away. The appropriate reaction is not to attempt to silence them in turn, they also have a right to their opinion that you can't take away.

This is just not true, I think. This video takes the side of those who agree that there is a dialogue here worth having. Calling out the silencers as just that, silencers, is not the same as being a silencer in turn. This is something that simply needs to happen to foster a healthy debate that a HUGE part of the video game audience thinks need to be had.

Guess we took different things away from the video.

I agree on your point that this is a discussion worth having and needing to be had. I just didn't think the video represented that point very well. Rather due to only attacking one side of the debate, those that disagree that some things are sexist, it took a clear side and presented it instead as a discussion that's really already been had and concluded with a supposedly obvious outcome, all these things are sexist.

On that point I disagree. Whilst there have been many discussions on things that were most definitely sexist and careless of the developers I also believe that there's been no lack of discussions on things that simply weren't sexist and instead the result of people getting carried away in the hype of sexism.

A discussion needs to be had, but it needs to be had without automatically painting either side as the villain as long as they're willing to discuss it rationally. I feel this video failed at that point by clearly hinting one side is in the wrong and acting out of insecurity.

 

[JudgeGame]

Look. We all know why bronies get the stick. I have heard no end of comments from people who have never even watched the show that the ponies look too sexy and that they find that disturbing. I really didn't care until I couldn't ignore the outrage any longer.

Generally, the people who attack bronies having never watched the show are the ones who take the extremely shallow view "it's a cartoon for little girls, therefore the men who watch it must be deranged individuals"; in the more extreme cases, we're all just paedophiles using our like of the show as bait.

I find it's easier not to entertain these people, much less allow them to ruin our enjoyment of the show.

It's pretty much universally accepted that the ponies in MLP are a bit too sexy.

By who exactly? Are you saying that the writers and animators designed the characters to be sexy to Bronies?

Here is Fluttershy during S01E01, aired before the internet following had taken off -

Now here is her in the last episode -

See? Absolutely no change in her character design; given that the success of the show with adult males was entirely unexpected, I think we can conclude from this she was never designed to be sexually appealing.

---

And yes, I am aware there are many sexualized pictures of the ponies around the internet. But saying they make the show - and the intention of the writers - perverse is false -

Firstly, there are pornographic fan drawings of pretty much every character out there. In truth, MLP is no worse than any other popular show/game/movie in that regard.

Secondly, to say that erotic fan-made media makes MLP sexualized by intention of the writers is like downloading several X-rated mods and saying Skyrim's world is hyper-sexualized. That content only exists if you deliberately expose yourself to it; it is in no way affiliated with the writers.

And in answer to your "youth and innocence" argument.

See: Infantilization of female sexuality. A very old and well established concept.

Here is what I said again: Last time I checked, those are traits associated with youth and innocence in cartoons.

As in, when a person designs a character with large eyes and big eyelashes, they tend to do so with portraying innocence in mind, as such is reflected by the character's personality.

I think in the context of a children's show, it's taking it a step too far to say "Ermagawd! Infantilization of female sexuality!".

If you have a problem with that point, I will refer you to here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor

That isn't what I said at all if you'd read back you might notice I said the opposite of that. I get the feeling you are taking this very personally and you shouldn't because I am not critizicing the show or bronies. Frankly, I'm not interested at all in following this conversation as this has fuck all to do with discussing social issues in videogames and is derailing the topic from anything worth my time. You don't think there's anything sexual about the ponies? Good for you. I think there is and I know there are other people who find them very sexual.

 

[JudgeGame]

-snip-

With great power comes great responsibility.

 

[SecsNoises]

That isn't what I said at all if you'd read back you might notice I said the opposite of that. I get the feeling you are taking this very personally and you shouldn't because I am not critizicing the show or bronies. Frankly, I'm not interested at all in following this conversation as this has fuck all to do with discussing social issues in videogames and is derailing the topic from anything worth my time.

Here is your quote -

I don't think anybody has ever argued the ponies aren't sexualized. They are given giant eyes, exagerated eyelashes

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression from this you believed they were given giant eyes, exaggerated eyelashes and whatever else as a means of sexing them up. And, going above and beyond that, it's an irrefutable claim which is held by everybody.

I didn't see it as a criticism in the slightest, just a blatantly false assertion which needed correcting. For funsies.

You don't think there's anything sexual about the ponies? Good for you. I think there is and I know there are other people who find them very sexual.

Good for you! And good for them too!

I can't say I really care. Cloppers gonna clop.

 

[JudgeGame]

-snip-

Give me strength. I meant that for some reason you assumed I thought the sexualization was intentional when I explicitely said it wasn't. I'd like it if you could stop insisting on this and we could drop this argument. You are starting to make me feel uncomfortable.