Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

[-Dragmire-]

This helps compensate for the badly-missed point of the "Easy Mode" video

Aww, you don't have to feel like compensating for missing the point of my video.

So Jim, all this talk about "compensating"...
Are you trying to tell us something?

Yes.

Instead of a penis, I have a really small talking car between my legs. It sings at night.

[sub].....Does it... Does it transform?[/sub]


OT: I, and I imagine many reasonable people who make up the midground in these debates, try to stay out of negative game related fiasco's, the bigger ones anyway, due to both sides' most vocal people being so heated on the subject that progress to any meaningful resolution or understanding seems impossible, through internet conversation anyway.

 

[xPixelatedx]

You can't defend something merely on the grounds that "that's what they intended to do".

Yes, you can, if that's the genre and the argument against it is "They somehow did something wrong by going through the guidelines of the genre". Racist isn't an accepted genre last I checked (at least I hope to god it isn't). It's not like we don't have movies, TV shows and other games where this kind of thing is prevalent. Mutilation, gore and even mixing in sex appeal(since people insist that gawd awful statue is supposed to be sexy) to make it all the more disturbing is part of the horror genre. That's why two college kids are usually screwing before a guy in a hockey mask hacks them up before they can even pull their pants up. That's the genre, if you don't like it, you don't like it. It's ok for people to be put off by it and share their displeasure, but I think it's going a tad too far to say it shouldn't exist. Some people like to be disturbed, scared, horrified and even grossed out, that's why the genre exists in the first place.

Compare and contrast it with Silent Hill 2, which featured the sexy nurses. Noone is complaining about them. Why? Because they are important if you consider their role within the context of the game. They have a good reason to be there,

Might I remind you the statue was of a dead person a bikini. The game is based on an island resort that has women in bikinis running around as flesh eating corpses that you blow away. So I am really failing to see the point of your Silent Hill nurse comparison. Again, why is everyone acting like this thing is somehow inappropriate for this game? ..To make the game look better? Yeah the statue is in poor taste, offensive, and otherwise unfit to bring to elementary school or tea parties; but the same could be said of the game it originates from, so why isn't that getting slammed? Like Jim said, no one is going to come in and take our games away if they turn out to be less then appropriate. If people didn't want such offensive things to be made, then why have we allowed video games to be offensive too the point that toys like this would eventually be made? Why is it ok for something like that torso to exist as visual data but not plastic? Maybe that should be the real discussion.

 

[MrBaskerville]

You can't defend something merely on the grounds that "that's what they intended to do".

Mutilation, gore and even mixing in sex appeal(since people insist that gawd awful statue is supposed to be sexy) to make it all the more disturbing is part of the horror genre.

I think some people believe that it´s getting out of hand. There were the infamous commercials for Captivity as an example, where it said: Abduction, Confinement, Torture, Termination that were shown allover the place in public, and ofcourse all the rather sexualised images of dead women in the Hitman Adds. It´s not so much a question of sexism or censorship, as much as it is a question of whether we´re going too far. Where is the line? When do we say, "hey, i think this might actually be pretty tasteless and disgusting"? It´s not really about censorship as much as it is a general question of whether there exist a line that can be crossed. Should we continue down this road, or constrain ourselves a bit? There are lots of ways to disturb and terrify audiences without using images bordering to fetichisme.

It´s not a matter of banning and censoring, but a matter of discussing the question at hand.

 

[Callate]

I must apologize; some of my original post was referencing the points and point-of-view found in the article by Sophie Prell that Sterling cites early in the video, and that was probably less clear to readers than it was in my mind. The article he references, for anyone who might be interested, is here: [link]http://www.destructoid.com/studying-sexism-with-skyrim-fus-ro-va-gina--219799.phtml[/link]

 

[Starik20X6]

At this point I'm sure my commenting on this will have all the significance of spitting into a river, but thank god for Jim putting this so eloquently. I was having this discussion the other day and couldn't quite articulate my words, now I can point people to this as yet another example of Jim Sterling being better at voicing my opinions than I am.

 

[jthwilliams]

This helps compensate for the badly-missed point of the "Easy Mode" video

Aww, you don't have to feel like compensating for missing the point of my video.

So Jim, all this talk about "compensating"...
Are you trying to tell us something?

Yes.

Instead of a penis, I have a really small talking car between my legs. It sings at night.

Now there is an episode. The singing slong of Jim does Les Mis.

As to the topic at hand, this is one of those hard ones. Of course there is sexism, racism and ism'ism in games.

But you make a weird point in your video, now I don't know the full context, but the mission you cite doesn't seem particularly sexist. A particular character acts in a way that society doesn't approve of and you manipulate that character be threatening to reveal that information. That is black male and a strong way to coerce people. It even works in real life.

Now you might say that the idea that women who sleeps with 3 people is expected to be shamed by it and if a Man sleeps with 3 women he is expect to be proud of it is sexist. It is. The double standard is clear and it is based on the sex of the individual that is sexist. But the sexism is in our culture not in the game. The sexism is very real, but not part of the game.

Now here is the problem as I see it. You then run into the idea is the game saying that the woman should feel shameful or is it reinforcing the already existing sexist meme in society. As someone is an egalitarian, I could really buy the idea that the game should not use that story thread because it reinforces the normal. As someone who enjoys fiction can I believe that the richness of the experience should be forbidden to include something because the possibility that it strengthens a harmful meme. IDK. Weighing it my head, I would favor real improvement over fictional story telling, but at the same time I would still see it as censorship.

All that being said, you are certainly right that their is room for discussion.

If I were being honest, I would say that the reason people act in a unreasonable fashion is that Video games get scapegoated a lot and as someone who enjoys the medium it is hard not to feel that people insulting games are insulting your world view and you as a person. So it can cause people to become extremely defensive. It probably doesn't help that people use declarative statements like "XYZ Game is Sexist" rather than observational anecdotes like, "Wow, I became really uncomfortable when I realized that all the bad guys looked and sounded like an exaggerated version of me. It may the game less fun for me to play. Further anytime someone who I kind of identified with came on stage, the game did a lot to emphasize his/her primary and secondary sexual characteristics and it kind of made me feel like if I met people who really liked the game or the developers of the game, all they would be doing is looking at my primary and secondary sexual characteristics. So the game kind of made me feel more like a sex object than a person and it made it less fun."

When someone says the first, it is easy to argue with it. When someone says the second, I think it is harder.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.

Your example is blatantly false equivalence.

The equivalent of a female made to appeal to men is a man made to appeal to women. Not some ridiculous monstrosity made with the sole purpose of saying, "Screw you men!"

While you are completely correct, I think what's most interesting about the analogy is that it is dificult to find female fantasies that involve completely dehumanizing and humiliating their male sex object. That's not unexpected though, given the nature of sexism.

There are females who prefer the dominant role and tend to be more on the sadist side of sadomasichism. perhaps they are a little rarer, but they exist. unless you are refering to wearing revealing clothing and acting provacative as being "dehumanising" in which case I direct you to the many examples of women saying that males actors are hot and prasing movies for shirtless scenes.

 

[Tumedus]

I am not going to debate the core argument being made here except to say that there is a valid statement being made but its being applied inappropriately.

My complaint is actually with the tediousness, espeicially on this site of late, of game journalists defending their own overreactions to everything by calling out gamers. Sorry journalists, getting bent out of shape over the torso thing was an overreaction and you are guilty.

Stop blaming us for calling you out when you take something too far or defend something that shouldn't be. I am not worried that they are going to take my games away. But don't pretend, especially if you are going to question my empathy simply because I think "you" are dumb for getting indignant over something so trivial, that controversy cannot spread like wildfire.

Internet media can be like a virus. One scathing opinion gets linked and relinked hundreds of times and becomes a major thing. Then, when you realize that maybe it isn't as big of a deal as you tried to make it, you hedge your bets, claim that "well I am not offended personally but I get it and it could have been handled differently" and then accuse us of doing all the things you just did to make the situation worse.

 

[leviadragon99]

Huh... I haven't run into that particular Skyrim sidequest, but yeah, that is one I'd definately go out of my way to avoid.

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

I've pushed this for a while, now. I'll come to the defense of games that are widely disliked by my peers, like Mass Effect 3, Resident Evil 6, or the new Devil May Cry, but I won't for one moment ignore the issues that are within them. I can very easily see how anyone would have a problem with the games I've listed. Maybe I just have practice because my favorite Final Fantasy installment is number eight - a title where it's pretty much impossible to not recognize the bad, but something about it still resonated with me anyway.

People should feel free to defend games as much as they want, but there's nothing wrong for accepting some games for what they are. At the end of the day, you have to recognize something's flaws, otherwise it's just blind worship.

 

[-Dragmire-]

This helps compensate for the badly-missed point of the "Easy Mode" video

Aww, you don't have to feel like compensating for missing the point of my video.

So Jim, all this talk about "compensating"...
Are you trying to tell us something?

Yes.

Instead of a penis, I have a really small talking car between my legs. It sings at night.

[sub].....Does it... Does it transform?[/sub]


OT: I, and I imagine many reasonable people who make up the midground in these debates, try to stay out of negative game related fiasco's, the bigger ones anyway, due to both sides' most vocal people being so heated on the subject that progress to any meaningful resolution or understanding seems impossible, through internet conversation anyway.

I'm honestly curious. What is the other side? Are there people who argue an honestly misogynist point of view, or is it just a bunch of feminists critiquing the culture against trolls? I know that people criticize the feminist point of view, but I have never heard much what could be called debate points for misogyny in games, so much as a breaking down of the criticisms.

I was thinking about of the state of people after that school shooting and video games were brought into it when I wrote that. Sides were taken and it looked like both sides had a, with us or against us, feel to them, at least that was my interpretation.

As for people arguing about gaming's other hot buttons, be it for things like accusations of sexism, racism, use or misuse of religious symbols, political views etc.. in games, I tend to not stay for those, but from the video it seems like the common go to counter argument for an unfortunately large(or seemingly large) section of vocal gamers is to say stuff like, "it's just a game, get over it", "it's not that bad, I didn't find it offensive. You're overreacting" or other similar things that cut the dialogue off from one side without any consideration or empathy or people who have a different point of view. Jim thinks it's through some kind of misguided paranoid overprotectedness of their passtime that they have a knee jerk reaction to any outside criticism of gaming and instantly want it stopped, censored and removed without any consideration of potential points that person may have had.

I have, in all seriousness, heard several people honestly defend and support sexist and racist views. In their mind the world has a set unseen hierarchy of where people are "supposed" to be and a persons value as a human is tied where they exist in that system. That is "right" to them and trying to explain to them otherwise would either fall on deaf ears or be interpreted as a "hand me down" story from the "respectable" parts of the hierarchy. I'm really toning this down, it got so much worse.



__________________________________________

[sub]I'm rather tired at the moment so I might not be very good at conveying my thoughts now, been 2 days since I last slept.[/sub]

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I am, whoever, a bit weary of people crying out that "OMG EVERYTHING NEEDS TO CHANGE SO NOTHING EVER IS OFFENSIVE EVER AGAIN ANYMORE", because if we go that far, we will be sitting in front of blank screens, lest we offend the colour-blind who can't play, listening to nothing, so as not to offend the deaf.

Okay, who the hell is actually saying that? Seriously.

Go back and look at some threads when the Assisans Creed 3 trailer came out. There were quite a few English people who felt offended that the main character seemed to be singling out Redcoats. They felt that they were demonizing Redcoats. I mean wtf, if there was a game set in Ireland would these same people want the Black and Tan's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_Tans] to be portrayed in a positive light as well?

 

[daxterx2005]

Earthworm Jim's creator has a bad past?

 

[TwistednMean]

I am opposed to stupid debates. People would debate anything, if they have enough time on their hands, but pointless debates are still a waste of time.

An issue is only worth acknowledging when it actually exists. There is no point in arguing whether Mass Effect provided the players with an opportunity to have sex with anything they wanted without consent. But FOX news still tried to blow a huge scandal out of it. Same goes for all (or almost all, since I haven't seen the later ones) Sarkeesian videos. She isn't bringing up valid points. Never ever. She isn't fighting sexism. Those tropes she spoke about are just as valid as any other ones. Saying that writers stop using them, because people may get the wrong idea, is nothing but an ignorant attempt at censorship. Now Sarkeesian simply draws attention to herself by trolling the gamer community, which mostly consists of people who aren't extremely smart. Or even old enough.

So the "isms" are only worth debating if there really is an issue. Accusing a woman of having three sexual partners in Skyrim? Sorry, folks, it's part of the narrative. Sure, it's sexist, but that's the Redguard's misguided social norms, apparently. You can disapprove of the Redguard's culture, but it doesn't give you the right to get offended. On the other hand if the game asked if the game suggested that the player is a slut, then it would be offensive, since the issue is not about in-game characters any more.

The dismembered corpse in bikini from Dead Island? Well, I'm sure it unnerving, but it's not there to say, "hey, man, those women are just a piece of meat". Which, of course, would an extremely sexist message, deserving to be condemned. It demonstrates how awful and disturbing a zombie apocalypse can be by presenting a highly sexual object in a disgusting and nauseating manner. That's exactly what players are looking for in zombie games. You may have no preference for such stuff, but you don't get to argue with them. Just as you don't argue with people who drink tea instead of coffee.

 

[Nurb]

and there's this old chestnut from someone who's had to hear his very existence is offensive:

Spoiler

You know, I've seen that old chestnut brought out to defend everything from rampant misogyny to claims that the only reason that LGBT people complain about homophobia is because they know deep down that they are freaks (kind of ironic, considering the source). I love Stephen Fry but I don't agree with everything he says, and I really wish he hadn't come out with that. It's an attempt at justifying the dismissive attitude towards any kind of complaint about "isms" that Jim mentions in this video.

Besides, lovely as he is, Stephen Fry has also come out with the occasional arseholish statement. To whit: "I feel sorry for straight men. The only reason women will have sex with them is that sex is the price they are willing to pay for a relationship with a man, which is what they want. Of course, a lot of women will deny this and say, 'Oh no, but I love sex, I love it!' But do they go around having it the way that gay men do?"

More eye-rolly than actually offensive, but my point is that you can like a person (or a game) without having to like everything that they say.

I'd agree with you, but in the case of fictional entertainment that has nothing to do with reality, it seemed like it applied, because being upset over games is a bit pointless in the long run. The most vocal actually think seeing attractive women in games will make men start to demand women in reality start dressing like booth babes. No really!

To me it's more or less a response to the complaints sexy women exist in games to appeal to male players, when it's the truth. It's male escapism; being such a badass that it requires a whole squad of sexy nuns to try and take you down appeals to a lot of people. It's different from female escapism and it's perfectly OK. I just don't get why enjoying pretty women in fictional entertainment is a BAD thing.