Jimquisition: Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

[Aardvaarkman]

1. This reasoning seems to be a blatant double standard. Why must it be true that all sexy female characters are objectification and all sexy male characters are power fantasies?

It's not.

But this particular case appears to be blatant objectification, regardless of gender. Because it's treating the characters literally as objects.

2. Lets say a studio were to make a game based around fulfilling a female power fantasy. Am I correct in assuming that the main character would be very sexy?

Depends on your definition of sexy, I guess. The characters in this particular game are hideous and completely unsexy to me. I'm not exactly sure what they were trying to achieve with such ridiculous proportions. But I guess there must be some people who are into boobs the size of basketballs that seem to have their own gravity field.

 

[Zer_]

The argument is that it objectifies women and reduces them to nothing more than sexual fantasies. There are also those that argue that it affects the perception of women in real life. As well as people who say it makes them uncomfortable that there are not many normal women to play as so they have to play as overly-sexual characters instead.

Personally I think the first one is very much a case-by-case basis. Games where the women are literally nothing more than T+A as far as design is concerned are a problem (Rachel Ninja Gaiden 2), but I don't see the problem when they actually have decent character design as well. If they are good characters as well as being sexy then they are not "reduced" to anything.

There's nothing really wrong with a game pandering to someone's sexual fantasies. This kind of pandering is something that happens in all forms of media. We all like to knock on 50 Shades of Grey for portraying BDSM in a juvenile light (Heck, even the people who are really into BDSM are all like "Nope."). The fact is that there's really no real harm being done by 50 Shades of Grey. Let's ignore people with serious mental disabilities for a moment. If someone were to treat women as objects because of some skewed view of reality perpetuated by media, who is to blame for this? Really, the answer is weak education. Someone with such a skewed view on sexuality is only like that because they lacked the education or experience to know otherwise.

The second point I don't think is even worth responding to normally, as I view it as the exact same argument as claiming violent media causes real life violence.

Exactly right. It amazes me that so many people fail to make that connection. Once again, it's our responsibility to our younger generations to teach them that violence is wrong.

The third one I completely agree with, and I dislike games where the male characters are properly outfitted and proportioned, whereas the women are wearing bikini chainmail for no apparent reason.

Then again, I am also fairly desensitised to this kind of thing, so when I see skimpy outfits I more or less blank them. People kept on talking about Elizabeth's dress in Bioshock Infinite having massive cleavage, but I didn't even notice until somebody mentioned it.

While I don't mind games that pander to a male power fantasy in a world where the women dress in bikini armours, it would definitely be nice to have a greater number of games where the characters have a bit more depth than a puddle.

Now, if you really don't like T&A games, then you need to realize that big publishers and game developers are very resistant to change. They'll very rarely try something new. When they do try something new that ends up doing well, they'll milk it until we're all sick and tired of it, because they're just too afraid to fail. On a more positive note, we have seen more and more depth added to characters. While the new Lara Croft is most certainly sexualized to a degree, she's also a character that has depth. She's so much more than a walking pair of breasts and bosoms. We're slowly starting to see more characters that are more than just a showcase for jiggle physics. The best way to go about changing the industry's direction is to encourage the developers to give us more sensible and realistic characters.

So really, instead of discouraging T&A, why not encourage Brains and Personality? Don't get me wrong, you're definitely free to share your opinion on a game, but like Jim said, it's up to you to share it in a non antagonistic way.

 

[the December King]

The way I see it, is when you spend months and months working on something, and then a troll tells you you are a 14 year old boy, you can get pissed off whether you are a boy or girl. Did he do the right thing? I don't think so, it was feeding the troll. But I can see WHY he'd be upset by a thoughtless stab like that. And I wonder how I'd react in a similar situation...

More aptly, it was essentially proving him right.

But the thing is, a lot of artists deal with criticism in a more mature fashion. Not everyone is George Lucas.

Touche!

(However, it could be seen as a brilliant way to respond, too, as no average 14-year old could churn out a pic like that, and in doing so as an amusing snub, suggests that he was well aware of the irony. But again, I know no more on the actual events, it's just an observation in hindsight.)

 

[Agayek]

Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

Dragon's Crown has become the latest game involved in a big argument. Big boobs, burly dwarves, and Kotaku were all involved.

Watch Video

So this is pretty irrelevant to any of the discussion, but I have to ask:

What's the source for the image you used at 3:12? It's a woman riding on a velociraptor-type thing and holding a flaming sword. Is that actually from a game or something? Because that image alone has me rather intrigued.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

Dragon's Crown has become the latest game involved in a big argument. Big boobs, burly dwarves, and Kotaku were all involved.

Watch Video

So this is pretty irrelevant to any of the discussion, but I have to ask:

What's the source for the image you used at 3:12? It's a woman riding on a velociraptor-type thing and holding a flaming sword. Is that actually from a game or something? Because that image alone has me rather intrigued.

Golden Axe: Beast Rider, but forget it. It's a mediocre game.

 

[Lyvric]

I'm impressed by this and the cull video you did. As a member of the female portion of this species, thanks!

 

[SageRuffin]

People losing their minds over this, have they not seen queens blade or scarlet blade. I forget wich it is called =\

If no one else has said it already... those are two different franchises with similar themes. Queen's Blade is the fantasy version. Scarlet Blade is the Sci-Fi version.

It's not all bad. The character designs just happen to be what they are. The two franchises actually have some decent plot points going on (such as the tournament to determine the next queen of the land in the former and the massive war of the latter).

 

[Voulan]

I'll admit when I first saw the Sorceress I was quite angry, mostly because it was a case of 'here we go again, another female character whom I want nothing to do with'. When I saw the rest of the designs, though, I took back my hate, because it was clearly a design choice. A bloody horrible one, but one nonetheless.

What got to me more was reading threads about the issue. People being shouted down for being feminists, and to 'get the f*** over it, it happens to men too', and that 'you're not allowed to be offended, everyone gets offended too easily.' The term feminazi really is a horrid one - is someone wanting female equality really in the same vein as a group widely known for attempting to kill an entire culture of people?

Games that should be discussed are ones like Scarlet Blade, where the characters are such obvious titillation that I actually get angry whenever I see ads for it. I keep begging for female characters, so why do you keep designing them for men instead of people like me?

 

[AyaReiko]

Honestly, if you don't like it on any merit, then don't buy it. If not enough people don't buy it, then things will certainly change. However, I sense one particular thing will come into play...

The Streisand Effect

And thus, by whining and complaining about a game in such a way, it will be guaranteed that even more people will get the thing. And therefore more games will be made like this. It's really that simple.

I swear there's a different Jimquisition here somewhere...

- - - - -

And for those of you who insist on throwing monkey feces around and other douchebaggery, I have one thing you really need.

It's one size fits all, and there's plenty for everyone. And sometimes, I wish the mods would use it more often...

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

C'mon, we know it's all or nothing with "feminists". Look at commercials, not once would you see women receive any kind of harm(without it getting banned), yet men are the brunt of slapstick all the time.

Through hard work and perseverance woman have managed to tear down most of the "no girls allowed" signs, and every club and golf course that went through it had to deal with these guys.

While women keep many "no boys allowed" signs up, not a ringing endorsement of "equality".

 

[Jayemsal]

I am sorry, Jim, but this is just not going to happen.

No one is interested in discussion and conversation, those things are not worthy of attention.

Instead, lobbing insults and arguing from end to end is the norm, and it will not change because people just like to get themselves into a lather instead of getting anything properly talked about.

It's why I scarce make a thread these days, or even try to reply to most I see. I barely see anyone interested in it. Why bother?

I'll just keep watching your contributions. They do a lot more to advance the issue than a hundred threads in these forums and beyond.

You took the words right out of my mouth verbatim. Truth is not just in the gaming industry but also in academic, scientific, religious, and political debates very few people are interested in discussion.

Everything eventually comes down to generalizations, red herrings, slander, and shouting. No one learns anything, the discussion itself becomes moot compared to the mudslinging, and nothing has changed.

It is why I only really look at certain videos and news articles on the Escapist because the user discussions very rarely have any real discussion.

I hope this trend of not discussing dies but I haven't seen any evidence contrary to what is currently going on.

This is usually how this type of "discussion" goes (this was from a few weeks ago).

There's a group of people that like something or want to discuss something rationally and calmly:

For instance with "Dragon's Crown", this character was revealed a long time ago and most fans of Vanillaware's games were happy with it, there was great anticipation and a shitload of fanart from both men and women surrounding the game.
This article for instance is from June 2011: http://www.examiner.com/article/the-sorceress-of-dragon-s-crown-inspires-hundreds-of-fan-made-illustrations

You can imagine this woman in the role of an utterly annoying Jason Schreier:

And then there's the general feminists screaming and flailing about how horrible everyone is for liking/enjoying or trying to discuss something that they don't approve of:

Of course, there will also be a group of people who insist on calling them out, for instance in this case Jason Schreier and telling them that they are fucking idiotic in return, and they also often go too far (these are often portrayed as the only "bad guys" in these kind of debates).

I find it funny that a """gaming journalist""" who posts an approximately 50-long word """article""" on a rag like Kotaku: http://kotaku.com/game-developers-really-need-to-stop-letting-teenage-boy-472724616 and in that alone manages to disrespect a developer and studio head in all manner of ways, from calling him a teenage boy, a 14-year-old (despite being in his mid 40's) and basically saying that he has no talent and "at least works cheap", as well as anything else that is being implied by that is called "starting a discussion" nowadays.

Boy, I should totally start more discussions on things.

Thanks for posting the inevitable thread ruining post.

I hope you're proud.

 

[LetalisK]

I might get the sexualization argument more if the Sorceress, and especially the Amazon, were sexy in the first place. I can kinda see the Sorceress, but then I saw the video of the Sorceress and her boobs flopping everywhere and I don't get how anyone could find that titillating. Maybe it's just me.

 

[Snowblindblitz]

I'll admit when I first saw the Sorceress I was quite angry, mostly because it was a case of 'here we go again, another female character whom I want nothing to do with'. When I saw the rest of the designs, though, I took back my hate, because it was clearly a design choice. A bloody horrible one, but one nonetheless.

What got to me more was reading threads about the issue. People being shouted down for being feminists, and to 'get the f*** over it, it happens to men too', and that 'you're not allowed to be offended, everyone gets offended too easily.' The term feminazi really is a horrid one - is someone wanting female equality really in the same vein as a group widely known for attempting to kill an entire culture of people?

Games that should be discussed are ones like Scarlet Blade, where the characters are such obvious titillation that I actually get angry whenever I see ads for it. I keep begging for female characters, so why do you keep designing them for men instead of people like me?

Shush, you're being calm and rational. No place for that now!

As I browsed through the character designs, I didn't bat an eyelash at that. If the rest of the game's art was grounded in realism...well....we'd have a new ball game.

Reminds me of the fiasco of Sarkenissan (sp) dismissing Zia's character as a damsel in distress, doing that whole snap-shooting a single aspect (oh he has to go save her) to further an argument when reality (she left on her own to explore her own culture and find her own path) disagrees with her.

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

I'll admit when I first saw the Sorceress I was quite angry, mostly because it was a case of 'here we go again, another female character whom I want nothing to do with'. When I saw the rest of the designs, though, I took back my hate, because it was clearly a design choice. A bloody horrible one, but one nonetheless.

What got to me more was reading threads about the issue. People being shouted down for being feminists, and to 'get the f*** over it, it happens to men too', and that 'you're not allowed to be offended, everyone gets offended too easily.' The term feminazi really is a horrid one - is someone wanting female equality really in the same vein as a group widely known for attempting to kill an entire culture of people?

Games that should be discussed are ones like Scarlet Blade, where the characters are such obvious titillation that I actually get angry whenever I see ads for it. I keep begging for female characters, so why do you keep designing them for men instead of people like me?

Not that I disagree with your thoughts on this game, but answer me this what good is/has feminism even done recently? Sure the vote, but that's a given.

 

[Gigano]

...
Thus, I suspect you're severely exaggerating the impact of a controversy over concept art and social media etiquette on actual sales data. Most people who buy games don't care about this shit. They aren't going to read some article about this controversy and go "wow, some dude implied another dude liked cock on facebook, I'd better check out this game he's making to see if it's any good".
...

No, they're not.

But they'll know the game exist, which is the first hurdle to overcome, and as the controversy run, they'll be exposed to information about it. The controversy stuff in itself does nothing for sales, it's all about the exposure gained. Which, for a very small game without much in the way of western PR, is solid gold.

So really, we can debate the minor publicity merits of controversy all we want, but what will ultimately determine success or failure of this game, as with any game, is whether it's good and whether people are likely to enjoy playing it, because really.. what proportion of people will buy a game (an interactive experience based on gameplay) because it has tits in it, particularly when the concept art is already on the internet for everyone to wank off to for free? Now we're talking statistically insignificant.

Well, leaving the whole eroge business aside, who'd buy a car - a mechanical object for everyday transportation - because it'd been consistently marketed in TV spots with hot women sitting on it pouring champagne all over themselves?

Not many, but it might make that model stick in their heads, making them examine that model the next time they're in the market for a car. Which is half the marketing battle. If sex didn't sell, then it wouldn't be so prevalent in marketing.

The fact is, Kotaku was already talking about this game before Kamitani did his lolgay thing and they certainly didn't need to do that. Neither do they particularly need to follow it's development further, or indeed the development of future games from the same studio, if nothing else because it's a relatively small studio in Japan without a very strong English language media division and with a CEO who clearly doesn't understand how social media PR works in the most basic sense.

Kotaku's thing is its extensive coverage of otaku subculture. And I'm pretty sure they're not going to ignore future western releases from ATLUS. They weren't covering the game because small studio in Japan, they were covering it because it was getting a translated western release by the major player which releases the rather famous Persona games, alongside various other titles such as Catherine.

Professionalism is not optional.

No.

But it need not always take inoffensive forms. For instance, if marketing an exploitation movie, the professional thing to do would be to stir up as much controversy as possible. The same could be said for certain low profile indie games with a potentially broader appeal than the niche which already know of them. Only here it was of course pure luck that another gaming website felt like profiting off the hits generating by gender controversy, bringing Dragon's Crown to general attention in the process. Everybody wins... except the prudish.