Jimquisition: Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

[Gigano]

...
I posit that it is essential that interested people discuss and debate the nature of games, films, and the like. The Sorceress from Dragon's Crown is an ideal example. Because of the portrayal of the Sorceress, and regardless of the intentions of the artist, many consumers may feel further isolated from the gaming market. If an artist holds the view that the objectification or overt sexualisation of women is okay, they will likely reflect that view in their work. If that work is successful, an argument is made for the promotion of material that in turn promotes the objectification or overt sexualisation of women. Rational discussion tempers that process; it allows for consumers and potential consumers to voice their preferences, which can then lead to the artist reviewing their work and changing their approach in the future.

Assuming of course there's an overlap between the people criticizing it, and the consumer group(s) the game is aimed at. If those criticizing aren't even potential consumers, then their opinions are worthless. It's none of their business what other people choose to play in the privacy of their own home, what right do they have to interfere with products aimed them?

That said, there is another way to rid the market of questionable and offensive content. If a rational criticism makes readers less inclined to support the artist and that sentiment grows, the artist's work and its messages stop spreading. This is the harsher but just as effective method of ideas evolving.

Again assuming there's an overlap between the people criticizing it, and the consumer group it's aimed at. You can't really boycott something you weren't going to buy anyway.

A critic is not defined by the constructive nature of their criticisms but by the simple fact that they critique things. To critique something is nothing more or less than to judge that thing critically and make a critical assessment.

Only constructive criticism is worth concerning oneself with though.

If the criticism respected the premise of the product, and was aimed at creating a more sexy sorceress, then it'd be worthwhile. As is, it's simply people trying to substitute their own vision with that of the designer. Most of whom undoubtedly weren't going to buy the game anyway, even if the sorceress suddenly became an AA-cup. Hence their "criticism" - or rather puritanical moralizing - is no more relevant than that of the people who complain about violent video games, without actually playing violent video games.

 

[Voulan]

Not that I disagree with your thoughts on this game, but answer me this what good is/has feminism even done recently? Sure the vote, but that's a given.

Well, since I'm not a feminist, I can't really say. But why would you dismiss their past accomplishment? Feminism is a social movement, not an actual organisation, so it's brilliant that its done that much.

We've been over this in one of the Scarlet Blade thread, not everyone is the same and you shouldn't project your dislikes and "getting angry" on an entire gender. This thread in the Scarlet Blade forum [http://www.aeriagames.com/forums/en/viewtopic.php?t=1793473] someone discovered is about 70-80% women of all sorts of ages, backgrounds and even some mothers playing the game happily and enjoying it. Some even specifically stating that the character designs are one of the main reasons for playing the game.

No, I'm not angry at the people that play the game. What I'm angry at its advertising and design as a game about sexualised women. The ads I've seen show the characters in suggestive poses with tags like "it's getting hot in here, so take off all your clothes" and "wanna play with me?". That's blatant pandering. It's even worse that some of the characters are clearly underage. It's the same issue I had with the Hitman Absolution trailer, as did many people.

 

[zefichan]

Both sides are equally bad? Last that I checked, the rape threats on the subject mostly came from the MRA male nerds defending the game.

 

[Gigano]

...
First, it's sort of silly to say how one would make a finished product better, especially one that takes years and tens of millions to make. It's not like the makers of shit movies then go back and redo the whole thing, innit.

They'll probably do another movie in the same vein though.

And despite what you may think, there is merit in pointing out flaws for its own sake. So that OTHERS may learn, for one. So they know WHY something is bad. It is not mere self-serving arrogance to point out plot holes, feeble characters, bad dialogue etc. It serves to remind those who care about such things that there are still some bloody standards in this world.

Others making products in the same vein, that is. Others hoping to make a better RPG incorporating cartoonish version of classic D&D designs won't learn much from all this "critique" about sexy = evil. It's irrelevant moralizing based in anti-sexuality prudishness.

Plus, nobody is keeping you from enjoying anything. I enjoy my fair share of universally panned media, but a critical mind should know why it enjoys those things.

Well, if the things eventually disappear, then it'll be hard to enjoy them.

 

[axlryder]

I'm honestly more pissed about people insulting the artwork for being "bad" because it's "juvenille" than the sexism thing. I'm Not saying art isn't open to criticism, but the criticism I've seen of the sorceress is fucking dumb. "Ohhh, it looks like it was designed by a 14 y/o, thus shit". fuck you. There's so much more fucking finesse put into that design than what you could probably even realize even if you weren't looking at it through a lens of bias because you apparently think indulging a specific aesthetic preference makes you a man-child. Just say you find the big tits unappealing or the provocative design sexist. I'm not saying I'd be totally on board with what you'd be saying then, but at least it doesn't come off like an ignorant pot-shot. At least then you're not insulting artwork that you're clearly not even properly assessing from a stylistic or design standpoint.

I'm surprised how riled up I got about that.

 

[cannedfury]

But... the Elf looks near-identical to the Dead or Alive girls where Jim dedicated an entire video to disapproving their aesthetics. It does show how just how much not trying objectify a design alters its image, though. Not to mention how ironically adding clothes can make it sexier to some people.

While I'm going to get crucified for this, I could never appreciate how progressive Jade's design was. I didn't even notice how sensibly she was dressed, midriff aside, until this vid pointed it out. Her color scheme was green to the point of nausea-inducing that every time I saw her blotch of green lipstick, all I could think was it was an attempt to be hip and sexy gone sickly wrong. Then I look at a lingerie model punch a t-rex and think, "Yeah, that looks perfectly fine." Aside from being subjective, visual preference is so far divorced from logic, it's going to be one of those speed bumps in these discussions. People are going to be explaining how impractical and objectifying chainmail bikinis are while others like me get confused and go, "What do you mean? That color palette and composition are perfectly competent. You're just tasteless."

 

[MoeMints]

I think the most awkward thing about this is that ironically enough, Vanillaware is doing a lot to have respectable female main characters and Dragon's Crown is the exception, not the rule.

I've seen a lot of people see Gwendolyn as one of their favorite characters. The protagonists are often actually very small compared to the behemoths that the supporting staff can be as well.
Is that being ignored over mentioning Beyond Good and Evil again?

That and we're STILL using DOA and KOF as examples?
Itagaki is gone, and DOA5 is pretty conservative on the main outfits and character models.
(Outside that manual boob jiggle and Other M, but blame the latter on creator direction and godawful localization)
Meanwhile, its like Kula, King, Yuri, Elisabeth, Blue Mary, Leona, Athena, Vanessa, Whip, Chizuru, Foxy, May Lee, and others don't exist because Mai is in.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

I'm honestly more pissed about people insulting the artwork for being "bad" because it's "juvenille" than the sexism thing. I'm Not saying art isn't open to criticism, but the criticism I've seen of the sorceress is fucking dumb. "Ohhh, it looks like it was designed by a 14 y/o, thus shit". fuck you. There's so much more fucking finesse put into that design than what you could probably even realize even if you weren't looking at it through a lens of bias because you apparently think indulging a specific aesthetic preference makes you a man-child. Just say you find the big tits unappealing or the provocative design sexist. I'm not saying I'd be totally on board with what you'd be saying then, but at least it doesn't come off like an ignorant pot-shot. At least then you're not insulting artwork that you're clearly not even properly assessing from a stylistic or design standpoint.

I'm surprised how riled up I got about that.

There are no shortage of ignorant people lining up to wipe their shit encrusted fingers all over the work done by very, very talented artists like George Kamitani who specialise in exaggerating the human form for effect. You only need to compare a selection [https://www.google.com.au/search?q=George%20Kamitani&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=hI9_UaOkJ8yWiQfu4IHQCA&biw=1280&bih=864&sei=h49_Ue2YJYK8kAXhnoCgBQ] of Mr. Kamitani's work against the monkey scribblings of an idiot like Rob Liefeld [https://www.google.com.au/search?q=rob%20liefeld&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=tY9_UZT4G7GwiQe-3YDYCw&biw=1280&bih=864&sei=uI9_UfnRGYSPkAWCy4EY] to better understand that an Mr. Kamitani has really strong grasp of his fundamentals. He doesn't draw in his trademark exaggerated style because he can't draw a realistic human figure, he draws in his trademark exaggerated style because a realistic human figure isn't a difficult enough proposition for an artist as talented as he is.

The schizophrenic sorts who rail against the prevalence of realism in video games, but then turn around and insist that women be portrayed as 'realistically as possible' are especially amusing.

 

[sXeth]

The flame war over Dragon's Crown confused me a bit at first; sure, the women were ridiculously proportioned, but so were the men. I figured that was what they were going for. Super-stylized, over-the-top, beyond the pale to a point where it barely mattered to the gender discussion because it was too extreme to be compared

Then a few days ago, I took a step back & I saw what Jim saw: Insult, gay joke, trolling on all sides.

Yeah, I've only heard of the game when the first article went up here, but it included images of all the characters, and the styles pretty coherent in its treatment of everyone, guy or girl, having their super-exaggerated almost satirical take on Boris Vallejo style fantasy art. And the elf and the wizard being normal looking decent models for whatever reason. While you could discuss the silly portrayal on both sides (which is exaggerated to the extent of it being like discussing the Expendables for having a 80s action movie plot as if it were a serious oscar-contending drama piece), it seems like the first guy tried to sneak in a fast joke without context, and the designer responded in equal fashion right back.

 

[axlryder]

I'm honestly more pissed about people insulting the artwork for being "bad" because it's "juvenille" than the sexism thing. I'm Not saying art isn't open to criticism, but the criticism I've seen of the sorceress is fucking dumb. "Ohhh, it looks like it was designed by a 14 y/o, thus shit". fuck you. There's so much more fucking finesse put into that design than what you could probably even realize even if you weren't looking at it through a lens of bias because you apparently think indulging a specific aesthetic preference makes you a man-child. Just say you find the big tits unappealing or the provocative design sexist. I'm not saying I'd be totally on board with what you'd be saying then, but at least it doesn't come off like an ignorant pot-shot. At least then you're not insulting artwork that you're clearly not even properly assessing from a stylistic or design standpoint.

I'm surprised how riled up I got about that.

There are no shortage of ignorant people lining up to wipe their shit encrusted fingers all over the work done by very, very talented artists like George Kamitani who specialise in exaggerating the human form for effect. You only need to compare a selection [https://www.google.com.au/search?q=George%20Kamitani&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=hI9_UaOkJ8yWiQfu4IHQCA&biw=1280&bih=864&sei=h49_Ue2YJYK8kAXhnoCgBQ] of Mr. Kamitani's work against the monkey scribblings of an idiot like Rob Liefeld [https://www.google.com.au/search?q=rob%20liefeld&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=tY9_UZT4G7GwiQe-3YDYCw&biw=1280&bih=864&sei=uI9_UfnRGYSPkAWCy4EY] to better understand that an Mr. Kamitani has really strong grasp of his fundamentals. He doesn't draw in his trademark exaggerated style because he can't draw a realistic human figure, he draws in his trademark exaggerated style because a realistic human figure isn't a difficult enough proposition for an artist as talented as he is.

The schizophrenic sorts who rail against the prevalence of realism in video games, but then turn around and insist that women be portrayed as 'realistically as possible' are especially amusing.

Absolutely agree. He is easily one of the most talented people working in the industry today and we have people lambasting his work simply for using exaggerated assets in an exaggerated design. Fuck the skillful use of draped fabric contrasted against the smooth texture of her thigh. Fuck the clever use of minimal details in places. Fuck the awesome shoes. Big tits thus bad. Thanks for validating my rage a bit lol.

 

[Gilhelmi]

I really dislike Agreeing with Jim. I find it leaves a poor taste in my mouth. But here we are again, Jim being one of the few people out there actually trying to have an intelligent discussion. If he would just be more polite about it. Oh well, too each his own style.

I like debates, I like to have them. I find (especially online) that I am enjoying a debate, but the other person is getting mad and having an argument. I never realize this until they are making threats against me or my family. I honestly do not understand, I debate so I have a better understanding of MY personal beliefs and the opposing sides beliefs. Far too often, I have observed, that if person "A" Disagrees with person "B", "A" vilifies "B" in ways that can only be called slander. Then "B" decides to up the ante, and create new (far less rational, but still fully fictional) reasons "A" is descendant of Nazis. "A" starts publishing news stories about "B" eating babies. "B" continues the cycle until the Lord Jesus Christ returns and tells BOTH sides to knock it off!!

Sorry, I got riled up about the stupidity of arguing. And how sad it is no one can have a debate anymore. I miss debates.

 

[Yuuki]

Why even bother having a proper "discussion" about this when everyone can just agree that different people like different things, learn to accept that and move on?

We're not talking about how people prefer to MURDER other people for entertainment, that would be unacceptable and against the law.
We're talking about how they prefer their entertainment media, a completely harmless thing done purely for enjoyment.

I don't mind oversexualization in my entertainment mediums.

I have accepted and understood that some people DO mind oversexualization, and I also understand WHY they dislike it.

We are different people and like different things. But I'm not going to try and force anyone to be me, and nobody is going to force me to become them.

We understand each other.

IT'S THAT FUCKING SIMPLE.

And for those with really thick skulls who STILL can't understand after all this time why there is so much female oversexualisation and "objectitication" in videogames and other forms of media, let me dumb things down and introduce you to the concept of markets - there are some things that sell better than others. Sexy females (and feminine tropes to an extent) is one of those things. The female figure sells and there are entire industries which use females as a selling point, this has been happening for hundreds of years and the female body continues to drive some of the biggest markets today. Videogames are but a tiny portion of that market. I repeat, videogames are but a tiny portion of that truly gigantic market.

Understand it and accept it. Or protest against it in a calm and peaceful manner if that floats your boat. It's none of my concern

 

[Paradoxrifts]

I'm honestly more pissed about people insulting the artwork for being "bad" because it's "juvenille" than the sexism thing. I'm Not saying art isn't open to criticism, but the criticism I've seen of the sorceress is fucking dumb. "Ohhh, it looks like it was designed by a 14 y/o, thus shit". fuck you. There's so much more fucking finesse put into that design than what you could probably even realize even if you weren't looking at it through a lens of bias because you apparently think indulging a specific aesthetic preference makes you a man-child. Just say you find the big tits unappealing or the provocative design sexist. I'm not saying I'd be totally on board with what you'd be saying then, but at least it doesn't come off like an ignorant pot-shot. At least then you're not insulting artwork that you're clearly not even properly assessing from a stylistic or design standpoint.

I'm surprised how riled up I got about that.

There are no shortage of ignorant people lining up to wipe their shit encrusted fingers all over the work done by very, very talented artists like George Kamitani who specialise in exaggerating the human form for effect. You only need to compare a selection [https://www.google.com.au/search?q=George%20Kamitani&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=hI9_UaOkJ8yWiQfu4IHQCA&biw=1280&bih=864&sei=h49_Ue2YJYK8kAXhnoCgBQ] of Mr. Kamitani's work against the monkey scribblings of an idiot like Rob Liefeld [https://www.google.com.au/search?q=rob%20liefeld&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=tY9_UZT4G7GwiQe-3YDYCw&biw=1280&bih=864&sei=uI9_UfnRGYSPkAWCy4EY] to better understand that an Mr. Kamitani has really strong grasp of his fundamentals. He doesn't draw in his trademark exaggerated style because he can't draw a realistic human figure, he draws in his trademark exaggerated style because a realistic human figure isn't a difficult enough proposition for an artist as talented as he is.

The schizophrenic sorts who rail against the prevalence of realism in video games, but then turn around and insist that women be portrayed as 'realistically as possible' are especially amusing.

Absolutely agree. He is easily one of the most talented people working in the industry today and we have people lambasting his work simply for using exaggerated assets in an exaggerated design. Fuck the skillful use of draped fabric contrasted against the smooth texture of her thigh. Fuck the clever use of minimal details in places. Fuck the awesome shoes. Big tits thus bad. Thanks for validating my rage a bit lol.

I wasted a couple of years of my life attending art courses in a fruitless attempt to try to be an artist like George Kamitani instead of yet another hack like Rob Liefeld. So you're certainly not alone in being annoyed by people writing off the work of a clearly very talented man because they don't happen to like the subject matter.

 

[maninahat]

It did make me wonder though, why wasn't there this outrage of Bayonetta? A few eyebrows were raised, but everyone seemed to accept it
Why? What made her different?
Is it because she was a bad-ass? That'd be a legitimate argument; she's an independent character of incredible power, she'll dress how she wants.

I think another factor is Bayonetta was a bit more tastefully done. Despite being highly stylized she was fairly reasonably proportioned and she was sexy for reasons beyond having giant tits that bounce every which way in a light breeze.

In this case the character in question can pretty much be summed up as "Hey look! Tits!"

Bayonetta happens to be a hugely divisive character - some see her as yet another character drawn for the purposes of fetish fuel, at the expense of any potential female player. Others see her in a more positive light, emphasising her confidence, motherly love and sexual control. She's a lot like (the old) Lara Croft in that respect, with some gamers pleased at seeing a strong, intelligent, self reliant woman as the hero, and others being put off by the gratuitous shower scenes, and the implication that she is there for the sake of the male gaze.

Really, the characters are a bit of both. That shouldn't be a problem in themselves, but if you follow the argument that there are already way too many female characters who only exist for fan service, then it is easy to see why some folks would take umbrage with Bayonetta and Croft.

 

[ninjaRiv]

I find it kind of sad that so many people here think change through discussion might not be possible. I think maybe that attitude would be something that holds these discussions back. Sort of like "Well, that guy says it's not possible to be reasonable to I'm gonna rape yer face!" you know? I dunno, perhaps that's just me.

The video was good, though. Maybe if more people called for a discussion, rather than just producing videos that pander to an audience, we might get places.

 

[Namehere]

There will, unfortunately, be no meaningful discussion. Any meaningful discussion will either be lost in the din of vitriol or simply fall on deaf ears and or the choir.

This whole ridiculous debate over... Over what at this point? Is it about sexism in general, women in games, what is the problem now? This whole ridiculous debate has degenerated into an excuse for two sides of the same coin to turn videgaming forums into their own private battle fields. Some people have embraced this because it gives them the chance to feel superior. Some people have embraced the causes! The rest of us wonder when TF game news sites started talking more about gender rolls then clinics and university classes about the subject.

This is all just an excuse for certain media sites ? and YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE ? to drum up attention for themselves. The problem is you're in a public forum and this is bound to continue deteriorating into more and more calls for public stoning. So whose next? What game, designer, graphic artist, or fellow forum dweller do we stone next to prove our moral superiority? Since when was the public forum ? never mind the internet ? a valid place to go off in search of 'reasoned debate'? Please.

The idea of something good coming out of all this noise in the west requires more suspension of disbelief then all the Fallout games combined. No wonder there's a shortage of good plots in videogaming, look at us, apparently we'll believe anything!

 

[TheSchaef]

I can't believe we're wasting all this controversy energy on the player-character designs instead of tackling the real travesty of Dragon's Crown: if the trailer is any indication, they ripped off Reepicheep!


Incidentally, the race which is the race from which Kraang hails, is the Kraang. The name of the race of Kraang is revealed to the one known as Jim in the series in which Kraang appears, on the broadcast network known as Nickelodeon. The ones known as Jim's Followers may take exception to Kraang referring to Kraang as Kraang, but Kraang makes this unorthodox reconciliation of the two series regarding the ones known as Turtles, because it amuses Kraang to speak in the manner of Kraang.

 

[Kelgair]

I'd point out that the succubus from Atlus's game Disgaea: Hour of Darkness had about the same bust size as the Sorceress character this "controversy" was based on. The major difference seems to be one has animated physics.

Just sayin.