Jimquisition: I'm Going To Murder Your Children

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Deadagent

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Twenty Ninjas said:
To be honest, the video's kinda missing the point. Hepler wasn't harrassed because she was creative with her writing. Holy shit no. That never happened. Hepler was harrassed because she was a video game writer who didn't like video games, and people understandably flew off the handle (not that the death threats were understandable) at someone who got into the industry without deserving to. There are a lot of good writers out there who also like video games and Hepler leaving is not going to cause anything of value to be lost.

It's also a bit disconcerting that Hepler is now such a huge attention figure that the things she says can cause a massive shitstorm between gamers and the journalists who support them. I'm imagining the comical yet grim situation of her saying "I was almost raped by someone who said he didn't like Dragon Age 2" and gaming pundits everywhere getting enraged with series of condescending and patronizing articles towards the "gaming community" in an effort to find all of the bad weeds and tell them a thing or two!

Long story short, the fragile egos of game developers everywhere aren't my problem, my business nor my interest and I'd be happier if the things I watch weren't full of moral posturing addressed to a vocal minority that will be anything but convinced.
Finally SOMEONE understood why I linked the video I linked, It's been paintful to see so many respond to that link and miss the point entirely.
Thoralata said:
That's like saying "4Chan is a great place for an intellectual discussion".
Even when 4chan is at it's worst, they wont ban you because someone got offended. In terms of being able to express unpopular ideas, it's a much better place than this forum.

You do get more downright idiocy with that as well but that's the price of freedom.


You can say it, it's a filthy fucking lie, but you can certainly say it. Instig8iveJournalism is the face of everything wrong with the gaming community. He's the kind of person Jim and Bob beat on because he's such an easy target. He's the fucking Fox News of the gaming community.
So the guy who dosen't get a cent for his opinion, and expresses it in a calm reasonable manner even if it's the unpopular opinion, is more like Fox news than a man (Jim) who gets ad revenue and expresses the politically correct popular opinion more often than not. Might wanna look at that a bit more objectively, dont you think?
 

jo291

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Thoralata said:
RickyChinese said:
xPixelatedx said:
What we should be asking is why Helper and Fish were singled out... even though it should be obvious.
Phil Fish is really bad at interacting with people, especially when they're criticising him, but I don't really get where Hepler violated the 'don't be a dick' rule. As far as I can tell, Hepler's an obvious target because she's: unfortunate looking, a woman, associated with a game that's basically emblematic of the bioware dating sim/fanfic caliber writing/illusion of choice stuff, and is featured in a DA2 trailer describing the sexuality of characters nobody likes while being all of the above.

Where does 'don't be a dick' come into it?
She admitted to not being much of a gamer herself and said she'd like an option to skip the gameplay in a particular game in order to enjoy the story. Cue the "OMG! Y U WANNA DUM DOWN DA GAEMZ CASUAL!" dipshits, and 4Chan and Reddit being their usual piles of human worthlessness.
If someone removes the game-play from a game then it is not a game, now is it?

People were justifiably upset that somebody that does not even like video games was writing a video game.

And our fears were justified when we saw how much Dragon Age 2 was dumbed down with its "Press button and cool stuff happens" approach to gameplay for thick skulled empty headed people who wanted nothing more then self gratification in game-play form that they had to put little effort in to play or beat.
 

Sticky

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Thoralata said:
That's like saying "4Chan is a great place for an intellectual discussion".
To stop you right there and hopefully not careen the topic off course any further: It actually is a very good discussion board if the most populous/active boards are avoided. Particularly in the way of hobbies and personal interests like the tabletop games board and the retro video games board. I know blaming the internet hate machine for everything bad that happens is a new fad, but don't believe that the site or the concept of anonymous discussion itself doesn't have it's merits or the site is only populated by irate teenagers.

antipunt said:
This is one of my first episodes here, and I cannot figure out for the life of me, why anyone would want to spend 7 minutes being chastised for doing absolutely nothing.

>_>

I could just go to the DMV
It's not all like this, but Jim does sometimes get swept up in the controversies surrounding video games quite often. He's been at the center of it and the outskirts quite frequently and he does have a good mindset of how to approach trolls or even difficult to discuss topics in general. So it's best to consider this an extremely rare circumstance and carry on. Hope to see you around more in the future.

That said, I also don't like that the recent pages are now resorting to saying this is everyone's fault because of criticism toward helper herself. Some reactions are overbearing, sure, but that doesn't mean that any person is inherently immune to criticism about their words and actions.

Phil Fish himself being an excellent example because without any prior context or information regarding his actions, he seemingly broke one day because someone at Gametrailers said some nasty things about him personally and threw his hard work out the window. Which doesn't absolve him of criticism at all and is really silly to expect people to sympathize with someone who essentially flipped the chess board over and is now crying in the proverbial bathroom. No matter how harsh the criticism may be.

But that's where the criticism ends, Fish's only mistake was the way he responded. The man responsible for the criticism was also immensely unprofessional about the whole thing and should be held accountable for his actions as well. A more skilled public face would have turned the whole thing around on said unprofessional critic and made the topic be about the critic and his childish behavior, but game developers are rarely known for being skilled public figures. Which is absolutely not Fish's fault at all.
 

Erttheking

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Chaosritter said:
Hepler got the backlash for saying that the part she hates about videogames is being forced to play them in order to watch the story sequences and Fish just gets treated like the douchebag he is.

I agree that threatening with murder is a bit over the top, but please don't pretend these people didn't have it coming. They don't get all that hate for their work (even though Hepler was responsible for the weaker parts of DA:O), but as a result of their statements and actions.
No, she DIDN'T have it coming. Helper said that she didn't like the gameplay part of current gaming, how combat focused it is? Can someone please tell me why that is worth getting angry over? It's her opinion, it's an opinion I disagree with, but it's her opinion and it wasn't an opinion that affected the games that she was making. Having an opinion that people don't like is NOT enough to make it so that someone "Had it coming", especially when that opinion doesn't actually DO anything.
 

Do4600

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I wish you would Jim, it's getting awfully tiring doing it myself.

I would like to agree with you, but I can't because verbal abuse from fans is the only thing that stopped George Lucas from making anymore godawful movies, so I simply can't.
 

HNLRoscoe

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erttheking said:
No, she DIDN'T have it coming. Helper said that she didn't like the gameplay part of current gaming, how combat focused it is? Can someone please tell me why that is worth getting angry over? It's her opinion, it's an opinion I disagree with, but it's her opinion and it wasn't an opinion that affected the games that she was making. Having an opinion that people don't like is NOT enough to make it so that someone "Had it coming", especially when that opinion doesn't actually DO anything.
I might have the chain of events wrong, but didn't people only really start flaming and threatening Hepler after she claimed all of her detractors were jealous of her job and vagina? I thought that before that point, posts directed at her were more critical than really mean spirited or threatening... Not that it excuses the death threats and all, but I think I can see what Chaosritter means when he says they "had it coming".

Instead of rising above the juvenile shit being slung at her, and addressing legitimate criticisms of her ability, Hepler decided to hurl almost equally childish insults back on Twitter. Even worse in the case of Aaron Flynn, who tried to defend Hepler by calling people fucking idiots. It's like I said in my original post. The people claiming to be so much more mature and intelligent than the gaming community need to actually show it by ignoring inflammatory commenters instead of bickering with them and insulting them back.
 

Erttheking

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HNLRoscoe said:
erttheking said:
No, she DIDN'T have it coming. Helper said that she didn't like the gameplay part of current gaming, how combat focused it is? Can someone please tell me why that is worth getting angry over? It's her opinion, it's an opinion I disagree with, but it's her opinion and it wasn't an opinion that affected the games that she was making. Having an opinion that people don't like is NOT enough to make it so that someone "Had it coming", especially when that opinion doesn't actually DO anything.
I might have the chain of events wrong, but didn't people only really start flaming and threatening Hepler after she claimed all of her detractors were jealous of her job and vagina? I thought that before that point, posts directed at her were more critical than really mean spirited or threatening... Not that it excuses the death threats and all, but I think I can see what Chaosritter means when he says they "had it coming".

Instead of rising above the juvenile shit being slung at her, and addressing legitimate criticisms of her ability, Hepler decided to hurl almost equally childish insults back on Twitter. Even worse in the case of Aaron Flynn, who tried to defend Hepler by calling people fucking idiots. It's like I said in my original post. The people claiming to be so much more mature and intelligent than the gaming community need to actually show it by ignoring inflammatory commenters instead of bickering with them and insulting them back.

First of all I'm not really sure it went in that order, and even if it did, most of the people who seem to be going on about her seem to forget about that part. And I'm sorry, even if it did happen in that order, that STILL doesn't justify the "She had it coming" thing. Yeesh, the way people seem to think that other people deserve punishments for some things. Makes me appreciate why being a vigilante is illegal.

I can understand the basis of your argument, but I'm reminded of the Jimquisition Go Fish episode. That wasn't their first resort to the first insult. More likely than not it was the result of a straw that broke the camel's back scenario where one comment pushed them too far and they snapped. I saw the "fucking idiot" comment, and it really did seem like he was losing his patience and snapping at the guy. And I'm sorry, you can argue how developers should be above the influence, but when it comes down to people who get harassed on a daily basis for daring to speak their minds, and whiny entitled little shits who threaten someone's children, just because someone said something they didn't like, well, I know where my sympathies are going to lie. Maybe they should, I don't know. Them not being above the influence is hardly enough to defend these people who threaten developers online though, nowhere near enough.
 

Gilhelmi

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Aardvaarkman said:
Gilhelmi said:
snip
I can understand that. Different stroke for different folks and all.

I know people do not think that you can overthrow a government, but we are seeing it happening in Syria. Heck, the communist party of China did it back in the 1950s(I think, might have been earlier). My point is that 45% of the US military is Republican, 45% is non-affiliated or Libertarian, and 10% are Democrat. BUT, remember that I do not think it is likely to happen unless something happened, which can not be undone.

I honestly think there are not more problems in the world, I think we are only SEEING the problems because of the instant communications that the Internet provides. My mother and I talked the other day about this, she was born in 1944 and told me that her observation of the world has been that things have always been this bad. We just know about them quicker. For example, in WW2 America did NOT know about the Holocaust of the Jewish people, there were refugees but we figured that the Germans were doing what the USA did to the Japaneses-American population. America had internment camps, that were not pleasant by any means, but everyone was well fed and cared for most of the time. They were wrong and racist, but they could not compare to what the Nazis did. It was not until the American Forces liberated a concentration camp that the full truth was understood.

Now think about today. How long do secrets last? Not very long. A Private in the US Army was just sentenced this week to 35 years for leaking a large number of classified documents. 20 years ago, there might have been leaks, but it would have just been a few pages (or what someone might fit on their person), most documents were not even on a computer.

Now I am rambling again. What were we talking about?
 

Deadcyde

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er... isn't the point of expressing opinion the understanding that there will be dissenting opinion?

We can't argue it because it's her opinion........ riiight. [sarcasm] But we can argue facts because they're immutable? [/sarcasm]

She said something shit, she pissed off a bunch of her audience because she doesn't want to do what her audience demands as well as having no idea how to empathize with her audience (doesn't like video games)

Explain to me why we can't react to that? I think we all realize death threats are lame and immature, fine, but not bad mouthing bad devs? Pfft.

As for old bud the tweaked the guns. COD is hardly the road scholars of gaming, you can hardly expect people used to hurling threats at lag to be reasonable, in those cases, ignore them/thick skin as it's hardly like they would even commit one of the threats they spout let alone one so publicized. Or feel free to trade insults, but if you take that road you forgo any moral high ground you may have had.

Otherwise, meh, report on something of actual importance instead of this sensationalized nonsense.
 

glider4

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Thoralata said:
glider4 said:
Deadagent said:
I didn't know this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QLz0CqtMVc] still had to be passed around.
I was thinking of posting that actually. If anybody should be on this website, it's Instig8iveJournalism
That's like saying "4Chan is a great place for an intellectual discussion".

You can say it, it's a filthy fucking lie, but you can certainly say it. Instig8iveJournalism is the face of everything wrong with the gaming community. He's the kind of person Jim and Bob beat on because he's such an easy target. He's the fucking Fox News of the gaming community.
Seriously? He sees through the lies of publishers and talks about his unpopular arguments in mature and logical ways and considering moviebob doesnt know anything outside of nintendo and claims that video games can't have good stories if they have lots of player involvment, he's the easiest person to "beat on" on this website.
 

MegaSuperUberMe

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Well to be fair, she was a shitty writer and took criticism on biowere forums with ban hummers to the max. This does not however excuses threats and bullying, but what else can you except when you ban conversation.
 

Saviordd1

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SlightlyEvil said:
...I'm sorry, I'm sure you had an important message about decency to your fellow man in there somewhere, but all I heard was "Dragon Dildo".

(Also, I thought the writing was the best part of Dragon Age II. For all the samey dungeons and uninteresting combat, I loved the depth of the characterization in the game. Somehow, the Internet assholes managed to pick out the one competent person that worked on that game and drive her away. Congratufuckinglations.)
Well, to be fair, she DID write Fenris and Anders, the two worst things about that game.

On the other hand she also wrote Tuchanka and the Sith Warrior story for TOR, the two shining beacons in otherwise mountains of shit.
 

Saviordd1

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MegaSuperUberMe said:
Well to be fair, she was a shitty writer and took criticism on biowere forums with ban hummers to the max. This does not however excuses threats and bullying, but what else can you except when you ban conversation.
She was a decent writer, as I mentioned in my above post, she did a lot of the writing for Tuchanka and the Sith Warrior questline in TOR.

She's not exactly a brand new JRR Tolkien here but shes a good writer at least.
 

Saviordd1

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Deadagent said:
Even when 4chan is at it's worst, they wont ban you because someone got offended. In terms of being able to express unpopular ideas, it's a much better place than this forum.

You do get more downright idiocy with that as well but that's the price of freedom.
I don't find rampant shitposting about anti-semitism, 9/11 conspiracies, FEMA conspiracies, Racism, Sexism and child rape worth "The price of freedom".

No, I'm sorry, but 4chan isn't a place for intelligent discourse, even if its an unpopular opinion. Because even 4chan has its own version of whats "Popular" and the mods will ban you for way dumber reasons than ours will.
 

MegaSuperUberMe

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glider4 said:
Thoralata said:
glider4 said:
Deadagent said:
I didn't know this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QLz0CqtMVc] still had to be passed around.
I was thinking of posting that actually. If anybody should be on this website, it's Instig8iveJournalism
That's like saying "4Chan is a great place for an intellectual discussion".

You can say it, it's a filthy fucking lie, but you can certainly say it. Instig8iveJournalism is the face of everything wrong with the gaming community. He's the kind of person Jim and Bob beat on because he's such an easy target. He's the fucking Fox News of the gaming community.
Seriously? He sees through the lies of publishers and talks about his unpopular arguments in mature and logical ways and considering moviebob doesnt know anything outside of nintendo and claims that video games can't have good stories if they have lots of player involvment, he's the easiest person to "beat on" on this website.
Ignore him, he is showing his true colours. Emotionally fuelled ad hominem that is trying to bring you to his level. When somebody uses this tacktic, that means they have no factual rebuttal to offer aka; you won.
 

MegaSuperUberMe

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Saviordd1 said:
MegaSuperUberMe said:
Well to be fair, she was a shitty writer and took criticism on biowere forums with ban hummers to the max. This does not however excuses threats and bullying, but what else can you except when you ban conversation.
She was a decent writer, as I mentioned in my above post, she did a lot of the writing for Tuchanka and the Sith Warrior questline in TOR.

She's not exactly a brand new JRR Tolkien here but shes a good writer at least.
I have to disagree on her writing skills at least when it comes to DA2 and ME3, since her greatest contributions were poorly written romance plots and insultingly simplistic gay romances. Hell, the small slaver escapee side mission that took about 3 minutes in ME1 was written better than anything in ME3. Tuchanka was written extremely weakly, deus ex machina, heavy handed exposition everywhere and poorly written girl-power speech to top it all. She is a fanfic writer who got her job as a script writer through her husband. Maybe she got better in TOR, but i highly doubt it.
 

SlightlyEvil

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Saviordd1 said:
SlightlyEvil said:
...I'm sorry, I'm sure you had an important message about decency to your fellow man in there somewhere, but all I heard was "Dragon Dildo".

(Also, I thought the writing was the best part of Dragon Age II. For all the samey dungeons and uninteresting combat, I loved the depth of the characterization in the game. Somehow, the Internet assholes managed to pick out the one competent person that worked on that game and drive her away. Congratufuckinglations.)
Well, to be fair, she DID write Fenris and Anders, the two worst things about that game.

On the other hand she also wrote Tuchanka and the Sith Warrior story for TOR, the two shining beacons in otherwise mountains of shit.
I liked the dark and brooding anti-hero mage, his actions made the climax have some major emotional payoff. I just wish that Anders could have been in the game. You know, the snarky fun mage from Awakening. I liked what we got, but I just wish we hadn't lost the character I liked to get it. Fenris was annoying as hell though. Over the game he went from "annoying" to "tolerable, barely" for me.

Tuchanka rocked pretty hardcore, the death of Mordin was just about perfect. Only ever played an Inquisitor in TOR, made the mistake of going light side before realizing that half of the morality choices had as the Dark option "zap this moron."
 

Griffolion

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Aug 18, 2009
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Man, threatening the person themself is bad enough. Threatening their kids too is just horrible. Hopefully some lessons can be learned here.
 

szaleniec1000

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xPixelatedx said:
wulf3n said:
Ohhh, source?

Where did Hepler respond? what did she say?
From what I remember, basically responding to critics by calling them virgins.
I just figure they're jealous that I get to have both a vagina AND a games industry job, and they can't get either.
Getting that offensive and resorting to name calling probably wasn't the best way to go about things, because really, once an argument gets to that point things can only escalate from there. Much of her opposition already looked bad and many of them were indeed in the wrong... she didn't have to throw any punches. She looked better then them up until the point she said that.

The only way you win a fight on the internet is by not having one. Oh how much better our lives would be without twitter haha.
Honestly, I think the uproar was very telling. I mean, most people would just laugh a comment like that off. I could open up any comment section or forum anywhere and find people being called far worse.