Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

[Colt47]

Actually, I've always thought the reason they objectify women in video games is to combine aspects of the pornography industry into the general entertainment industry in a way that doesn't set off advocacy groups. Sex tends to sell and men are easier to target with sex based media than women due to a lower resistance to it at the target age groups (mid teens to early twenties for guys is especially volatile). Women tend to have their sex drive develop more evenly and reach their peak later, so the same tactic isn't as effective on them at the same point.

 

[PirateRose]

Well, yes I do think female gamers would enjoy that. Straight women tend to enjoy seeing attractive, half naked men. I mean, have you seen some of the fan art the women are making of just the male LIs. Hell, there is this joeblack guy on deviant art posting 3D models of the guys shirtless on motorcycles, just for the fangirls. With the introduction of drell, having few of them dancing on some tables would have been amazing.

Attractive, half-naked men are not the same as male strippers. You go to the beach to see one; you go to the male strip joint to shove Lincolns in the other's junk (I think that's how it works, not sure). I'm also willing to bet that some male strippers are UNattractive, half-naked men, potentially trying to work their way through space school. Even the male strippers that ARE attractive have a completely different power structure than attractive, half-naked non-stripper men--i.e., total dependency as opposed to confident power. Incidentally, I'd also be willing to bet that confident, powerful men are more attractive to the average female than dependent, and therefore weak, men. I've heard of some studies on it that I won't bother looking up atm.

(I'd try to argue that attractive, half-naked women are not the same as female strippers for symmetry's sake, but I enjoy my current status of not being a target.)

I'm basically trying to suggest that average female sexual tastes might not be mirror images of average male sexual tastes, so appealing equally to male and female sexual tastes might not be as simple as you think. I'm not saying there's equal attention paid to female sexual tastes in games, because the industry's own behavior disproves that, but you can't just point to asymmetry and try to equate it to inequality. They are not the same.

There is this movie, called Magic Mike. It is amazing, a box office hit, a thing created for women for ENTERTAINMENT purposes that involve mostly naked, attractive men dancing around and the major complaint was that they tried to put a lame romantic story into the movie. You should go see it. Actually go talk to a theater workers and ask how loud the women were howling over that movie. Also, The Full Monty touches on the subject matter. Then there are existing shows in Las Vegas, Chippendales, crowded with women howling at half naked men. Also, check out the bachelorette parties going on in recent years. A recent episode of Bones covered the male stripper thing, the good doctor expressed that it's becoming increasingly popular for women of younger generations to desire male strippers because they are gaining more sexual power in their lives. There are actual studies showing how women give male strippers more cash when they are ovulating.

The only difference between male strippers and female strippers is the gender. Otherwise, whatever people are sexually attracted to, they are going to find it sexy dancing around half naked and at peak appearance.

And again, for the sake of Mass Effect's own lore, the asari are a sexually open race who find everyone else not their species sexually attractive. You would think with all their power and influence in the galaxy, they would have strip clubs set up for their viewing pleasure, which would mean there should be some male strippers shaking their asses at the bars.

Just because something is possible, sensible, or even directly implied by the framework of the story does not mean the developer will or ought to include it. You know the recent Batman movies, which have been commercial and critical successes despite having a plot hole the size of Jupiter, specifically that Batman and Alfred are able to single-handedly foil the efforts cave moisture and bat shit and their fantastic ability to destroy all of Batman's very expensive electronics? Yeah, they chose to leave that part out despite it being a direct consequence of housing such a huge operation in a fucking cave because it would have been stupid to include something that does not appeal to any audience and, in fact, reduces the appeal to the existing audience(s). People like to see Batman kick ass with futuristic and non-destroyed technology, and without being covered in guano.

I hate to have to use this line, but video games are ENTERTAINMENT. It's not worth the time and effort to produce entertainment (which costs money) if it won't be more appealing than real life (which is essentially free). In other words, it's about appeal, not about making sense. And since male strippers would most likely reduce the appeal to young men (most likely straight), Bioware understandably would require some proof that male strippers would produce enough appeal to the female or gay audience to make up for the reduced appeal to straight males, regardless of how much sense male strippers make in the context of the story.

Well it didn't hurt Fallout New Vegas sales to have male prostitutes and male strippers. I haven't heard a single complaint from any man who has played the game about these dudes. It's as if they didn't care and were mature enough to realize male prostitutes and strippers exist without harming their straight sexualities. Even better, these characters weren't put in for a female audience, they were often gay and cat calling the male Courier. Female Courier got cat calls from guys, but only had female options and a robot to get laid with, Obsidian actually addressed homosexual needs before straight female needs. And I can understand, realistically, female Courier accidentally getting pregnant at a time like that would be bad. However, as you yourself state, video games are for entertainment purposes! Let's bend reality a little and let the female audience enjoy the idea of not being strapped down to the idea her uterus is a baby factory. After all, male courier isn't getting any of the female prostitutes pregnant.

 

[ShadowHamster]

You know, all these people saying "IT'S BEEN SAID BEFORE, JIM!" are really missing the point.

He made this responding to a popular argument from people who saw his previous videos. He even found a gentleman being reasonable rather than the common "F### YOU! GAMES ARR PURFICT! YOU DON'T KNOW, STOP BEING FEMINAZI! NOT EVN GURL LOL!" that it commonly comes in.

He addressed guys who feel let down by characters like Kratos, who make some men feel less since they are built like bricks and can just go do what they want. Tons of gamers are introverted guys with self-esteem issues, and I'm sure they get fed up with hearing how video games are objectifying women, because most guys like girls. Like talking to girls, getting to know them, finding out HOW they manage to smell good/look pretty, and they don't feel that should be bad.

And it isn't necessarily. What's bad is when you just want to own that nice pretty lady. When you want to play her like a puppet around your essence. Games are getting better about it(Bioshock: Infinite's twist definitely empowered the GIRLY GIRL character and turned everything around for example) but it's still a rare thing to see. I know that Aliens game by Gearbox sucked, but right off the bat I was confused and angered when I found out you couldn't play a girl character. IN fact they KILL the girl character right away so the story can be about the manly marines, because who would want to follow a girl character in an ALIENS title.

So Jim straight up explained, almost in baby words, why women in games are considered "objectified" while men are considered "idealized". Women are expected to be more mature, more intelligent, and yet...less...than men. They can't be sexual, but they have to be sexualized. They can't be singularly strong, and game devs are still not wanting to add in those "GIRL" characters, despite the interactive media market openning up to women more and more. It's a problem, not a problem that is emanating from the gamers who get upset hearing what a problem it is, but from the developers treating us like we are all 14. I'm personally sick of such attitudes, and don't think such messages are "oversaturated" until the problem is solved. If we stop talking about it, that doesn't mean it goes away.

 

[ShadowHamster]

Well, yes I do think female gamers would enjoy that. Straight women tend to enjoy seeing attractive, half naked men. I mean, have you seen some of the fan art the women are making of just the male LIs. Hell, there is this joeblack guy on deviant art posting 3D models of the guys shirtless on motorcycles, just for the fangirls. With the introduction of drell, having few of them dancing on some tables would have been amazing.

Attractive, half-naked men are not the same as male strippers. You go to the beach to see one; you go to the male strip joint to shove Lincolns in the other's junk (I think that's how it works, not sure). I'm also willing to bet that some male strippers are UNattractive, half-naked men, potentially trying to work their way through space school. Even the male strippers that ARE attractive have a completely different power structure than attractive, half-naked non-stripper men--i.e., total dependency as opposed to confident power. Incidentally, I'd also be willing to bet that confident, powerful men are more attractive to the average female than dependent, and therefore weak, men. I've heard of some studies on it that I won't bother looking up atm.

(I'd try to argue that attractive, half-naked women are not the same as female strippers for symmetry's sake, but I enjoy my current status of not being a target.)

I'm basically trying to suggest that average female sexual tastes might not be mirror images of average male sexual tastes, so appealing equally to male and female sexual tastes might not be as simple as you think. I'm not saying there's equal attention paid to female sexual tastes in games, because the industry's own behavior disproves that, but you can't just point to asymmetry and try to equate it to inequality. They are not the same.

There is this movie, called Magic Mike. It is amazing, a box office hit, a thing created for women for ENTERTAINMENT purposes that involve mostly naked, attractive men dancing around and the major complaint was that they tried to put a lame romantic story into the movie. You should go see it. Actually go talk to a theater workers and ask how loud the women were howling over that movie. Also, The Full Monty touches on the subject matter. Then there are existing shows in Las Vegas, crowded with women howling at half naked men. Also, check out the bachelorette parties going on in recent years. A recent episode of Bones covered the male stripper thing, the good doctor expressed that it's becoming increasingly popular for women of younger generations to desire male strippers because they are gaining more sexual power in their lives. There are actual studies showing how women give male strippers more cash when they are ovulating.

The only difference between male strippers and female strippers is the gender. Otherwise, whatever people are sexually attracted to, they are going to find it sexy dancing around half naked and at peak appearance.

And again, for the sake of Mass Effect's own lore, the asari are a sexually open race who find everyone else not their species sexually attractive. You would think with all their power and influence in the galaxy, they would have strip clubs set up for their viewing pleasure, which would mean there should be some male strippers shaking their asses at the bars.

Just because something is possible, sensible, or even directly implied by the framework of the story does not mean the developer will or ought to include it. You know the recent Batman movies, which have been commercial and critical successes despite having a plot hole the size of Jupiter, specifically that Batman and Alfred are able to single-handedly foil the efforts cave moisture and bat shit and their fantastic ability to destroy all of Batman's very expensive electronics? Yeah, they chose to leave that part out despite it being a direct consequence of housing such a huge operation in a fucking cave because it would have been stupid to include something that does not appeal to any audience and, in fact, reduces the appeal to the existing audience(s). People like to see Batman kick ass with futuristic and non-destroyed technology, and without being covered in guano.

I hate to have to use this line, but video games are ENTERTAINMENT. It's not worth the time and effort to produce entertainment (which costs money) if it won't be more appealing than real life (which is essentially free). In other words, it's about appeal, not about making sense. And since male strippers would most likely reduce the appeal to young men (most likely straight), Bioware understandably would require some proof that male strippers would produce enough appeal to the female or gay audience to make up for the reduced appeal to straight males, regardless of how much sense male strippers make in the context of the story.

Well it didn't hurt Fallout New Vegas sales to have male prostitutes and male strippers. I haven't heard a single complaint from any man who has played the game about these dudes. It's as if they didn't care and were mature enough to realize male prostitutes and strippers exist without harming their straight sexualities. Even better, these characters weren't put in for a female audience, they were often gay and cat calling the male Courier. Female Courier got cat calls from guys, but only had female options and a robot to get laid with, Obsidian actually addressed homosexual needs before straight female needs. And I can understand, realistically, female Courier accidentally getting pregnant at a time like that would be bad. However, as you yourself state, video games are for entertainment purposes! Let's bend reality a little and let the female audience enjoy the idea of not being strapped down to the idea her uterus is a baby factory. After all, male courier isn't getting any of the female prostitutes pregnant.

It took me awhile to get into Fallout:New Vegas due to a very glitchy openning. Got 3/4 the way through and put on that awesome armor on the cover, and destroyed all the work I did getting it....

That being said, I still think the best quest in the game is collecting hookers and strippers for that one place that is outside main vegas. I especially love the spanish male hooker Santiago. He was hilarious, well written, and fit the role in the game well. Fallout in general uses a near farce liking to sexuality that feels appropriate and compliments the game. It didn't have to be there but it is, and in New Vegas they spread that to men. I enjoy this, because it's new. It handles the topic with a bit of humour, but in the end goes "these people exist, they aren't necessarily the worst people ever, and that's just life."

All in all, and most importantly, it reflects low payed areas mindset on such things, and gives us a window into this world we previously didn't have. These are good things, and I'm glad Bethesda decided to include it.

 

[ShadowHamster]

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

Yet you never wondered how he shaves his face?

Anyway, I remember an episode of Lois and Clark where he shaved by reflecting his eye lasers with a mirror. I guess his skin is tougher than his hair, and the strength of his laser vision falls nicely between the two.

Not to mention that this would basically be Laser Hair Removal and would eventually lead to him not having to shave.

 

[Tono Makt]

FemShep was doing real good till the third game and Bioware decided the audience was a bunch of dudebros that want to masturbate to hot lesbians. If you play the way many female fans played, your only option in ME3 is to be a lesbian because the male LI you picked either had the balls to cheat on Shepard, died, or is made unavailable because Tali. Apparently with the Citadel DLC, Bioware realized this problem, and threw in the femShep sexual harassing/raping James Vega or drunkenly sexing with Javik. That's right boys, female Shepard got special treatment for once in the form of awkward, unwanted one night stands while Male Shepard is stuck with a bunch of boring, stable, sexual relationships. *sarcasm*

I was demanding on the forums that Bioware put in some male strippers since ME1, day one. It's really strange that as openly sexual and powerful as the asari are, they aren't on the receiving end and have a bar with a bunch of male aliens taking it all off so they can make their way through college.

I believe in the end it comes down to one thing, that was made apparent when they describe how they created Thane Krios. He was suppose to be that character that was for female fan service of a sexualized male alien equal to the asari. The following is some explanation behind Thane's appearance:

?The body wasn't as exhausting as the head. This is Matt Rhodes' attempt. You see, we still have some of the old heads on there, but Matt was trying to explore what would happen if we had more flesh showing. That didn't go over well. We weren't very comfortable with the amount of skin." - Game Informer, Drawing Mass Effect 2, The Creation of Thane. [http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2010/02/09/drawing-mass-effect-the-creation-of-thane.aspx?PostPageIndex=3] (you know, out of context, this quote is glorious)

They decided against having Thane half naked because that made them uncomfortable. The male alien that was suppose to be on par with the sexy asari, couldn't be taken that extra step of sexualization. Meanwhile, the camera is up Miranda's skin tight covered butt frequently(she also has a well detailed camel toe) and Jack is running around with nothing but thin straps holding her boobs. They had to create an alternate outfit for Jack's advertising because her outfit was that revealing. But you know, these women are "sexually open" and it's vital to their "characterizations." At the very least they gave Thane the man cleavage and tried to excuse it for medical purposes. Like I'm sure Samara's reasons are behind her deep, plunging neckline.

Then in the end, they killed off Thane after a couple of lines of dialogue(they had nothing else better for him but a poorly coordinated fight and "emotionally engaging" death scene), stuck the camera back up Miranda's butt(her side plot is the same as ME2), and covered Jack up a bit more, but put her in a more feminine role. (See ladies, you mature and grow and feel better about yourself when you fill out a motherly role.) They did, oddly, almost completely eliminate the strippers, but they make up for it by making the Traynor romance start out like a soft core, male fantasy lesbian porno. Male Shepard's exclusive gay relationship starts out with a cute, comfortable, safe date with Cortez at the bar. Everyone applaud Bioware for their great maturity in handling homosexual relationships.

I'm going to agree with some of your points, particularly on Samara and the lack of male sex objects in the game on a par with the Asari "dancers". Also on the point of hypocrisy with Miranda and Jack. I'm not sure I'd go with the tone you're using, but that's more of a personal preference rather than an outright disagreement. (Also not going to comment on the Citadel DLC as I've not played it myself.) I'm not sure that it's done purely to pander to straight males in the audience, though - I think it's more of Bioware really not knowing how to write something for a female Shep that would be the equivalent to the male Shep, and the attempt being rather awkward and missing the mark. And probably not quite being able to figure out a more meaningful series of sexual options for their female characters beyond One Night Stand (Jack, Miranda, Traynor, Kelly) and Long-Term Commitment (Liara, Tali, Ashley). This may have something to do with the fact that there are only 2 credited women (out of 13 credited writers) on the three main Mass Effect games; Ann Lemay and Cathleen Rootsaert (who was a dialogue editor in ME2 and promoted to writer in ME3), with no women credited as writers on ME1. (It would be interesting to get their take on the matter, actually.)

Also going to give a bit of a nod to the below post:

Kaiden is a decent romance, Garrus is a great romance, and Thane had a very meaningful death and interesting subplot. If you didn't like it that sucks, but it's certainly not the worst part of the game. It wasn't pandering to the straight male audiance. Jacob was a complete brick of a character so I don't see why he was much of a loss but I'll give it to you. Femshep only got two lesbian love interests. If you count the new DLC they added another straight one in James, and that was hardly rape/harassment.

Male shep also got two pretty decent gay love interests. I mean I'm sorry I'm not seeing this completely exclusive pandering to straight males here. Whatever you might disagree with the games direction I just don't think there is much proof to your claims.

I think you've both got some good points on this; it seems to be more a question of aesthetics now. One likes what happened, one didn't like it as much (if at all), and both have good reasons for the opinion.

 

[jokulhaups]

Cue the masses claiming, "this isn't a problem, stop talking about it".

There are bigger problems, this doesn't need as much attention as it's getting.

Of course there are bigger problems, but there are all sorts of people on this planet and we don't have to sit around waiting for life threatening issues to be solved before we talk about this. There are people who can take care of those problems while attention is brought to this by others.

 

[Spearmaster]

snip

Almost like its a sea of Developers/Publishers out there that most likely hear and see what people are asking for and either don't want to take the risk of something new or figure someone else will do it, kinda punting the football around.

On the other side how does it help the cause when games from these same developers are attacked for making something, either a character choice or a whole game design, that is clearly designed by or for a certain groups taste, in most cases men? I'm sure most of this comes from the most extreme of the group but it results in a defensive response from a lot of male gamers, one of those defensive responses is what this weeks Jimquisition was about.

So it leaves me to question how attacking a game to the point of causing male gamers to defensively try to justify the existence of the game is a way of asking the industry for better representation of women. I hear from mostly level headed people that all seem to want the same thing and I'm on board with it but attacking games or game characters that were clearly meant to stimulate the male heterosexual population just comes off as a way of saying those games or character should not exist and men should not be allowed have them. (some people actually do believe this btw)

Saying "this game is a sexist piece of shit" and saying "this game is clearly for men, I wish we had games that were for everyone" is not the same thing. The difference is destructive versus constructive dialog.

It's a final straw thing for some people. I think some games for men should be a "sexist piece of shit". Maxim exists for a reason. But Maxim is "sexist piece of shit" demographic chasing. Most games are not specifically "sexist piece of shit" chasing, they just happen to ignore the female demographic, and then the game equivalent of Maxim is targeted due to frustration.


Dead or Alive is what it is and I think most people accept that but it's a good example of how stupid a demographic that they're targeting

Dragons Crown I don't really have a problem with....

----- Apart from the blank emotionless child faces on the female characters. Seriously... Tits, ass and inappropriate clothing: Fine...... Having the same very-teen, anime, emotionally-blank, face on every female character: Makes me frown because its a little dehumanising.-----

I'm annoyed that Soul Calibur went from simply having sexy characters to going for absurd boob-physix titillation.

I'm annoyed that female protagonists are verboten.

I'm annoyed that there isn't the game version of Ellen Ripley or Hermione Granger or Arya Stark.

So it's easy to point to DoA or Dragon's Crown and ask why so much of this "sexist piece of shit" exists and why more interesting, realistic female characters don't exist.

So its more so the frustration of seeing yet another game featuring large breasts and skimpy clothing and having no game or not enough games out there to provide the counter balance. I can understand the frustration I just wish attacking games was not the only option to get attention because it can send the wrong message.

 

[1337mokro]

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

Yet you never wondered how he shaves his face?

Anyway, I remember an episode of Lois and Clark where he shaved by reflecting his eye lasers with a mirror. I guess his skin is tougher than his hair, and the strength of his laser vision falls nicely between the two.

It was just a joke and someone already beat you to the punch with video of both the TV series and the animated series.

 

[ferrishthefish]

Magic Mike was popular because it had male strippers, not because it had "sensitive direction, smart screenplay, and strong performances."

That's like saying Inglourious Basterds was popular because it had Jews, not because it was a good movie. I'm sorry, but I'm really not buying this logic.

Well it didn't hurt Fallout New Vegas sales to have male prostitutes and male strippers. I haven't heard a single complaint from any man who has played the game about these dudes. It's as if they didn't care and were mature enough to realize male prostitutes and strippers exist without harming their straight sexualities.

So male gamers should be mature enough to not care about male strippers, but female gamers have all the right in the world to complain about female strippers? And here you are suggesting that I'M the one with double standards?

 

[G-Force]

An example of how stupid this can get ...

Does anyone know of a game where you play as a 27 year old man who is

- slightly overweight
- has a long scruffy ponytail
- who has a beard because they are too lazy to shave


Anyone

Anyone ?

What a shame guess i cannot play any more games then.


see how stupid this can get

Any game that allows me to make my own character. See Saints Row as a more recent example.

 

[SeanSeanston]

Funny how having attractive women in games counts as something trivial and essentially nonsensically made-up like "objectification", which is obviously a huge emergency for world society...

...meanwhile, if somebody mentioned that games were being insensitive by routinely depicting the disproportionate mass slaughter of men (and usually only men), they'd be disregarded out of hand, despite the fact that is an ACTUAL thing that happens in the ACTUAL real world causing the deaths of many actual people who's being male was a massive factor in their being exposed to an early and violent death, and you could legitimately make an argument for the inclusion of such things in media (usually along with the avoidance of depicting violence that occurs to women, which is a very rare thing in both the real and fictional worlds) reinforcing society's idea of violence being ok or at least reasonably acceptable as long as it's happening to men.

But don't worry, women have bigger problems. Like what to do with their extended lifespans which are partly explainable by sexist attitudes that result in greater spending for female-specific healthcare despite men paying a disproportionately high amount of tax.

Also imaginary wage gaps. That's a big one.

EDIT: And to tackle the actual issue more specifically...

Why is it that these "power fantasy" male characters tend to:

A. Not look at all like stereotypically strong men.
B. Tend rather to mostly look like fitness models.
C. Happen to look exactly like a male character designed for the sexual gratification of heterosexual/bisexual females and/or homosexual/bisexual males?

C. is also important in the sense that part of the "men want to be him" concept is that men want to be what women want to have, as an observation.

Then we get the old bollocks of "not enough women in the games industry" and "games are too focused on male demographics", even when we have male characters that LOOK EXACTLY LIKE THEY WERE TARGETED AT WOMEN. It's not important whether they were or not when it's the SAME RESULT. And this is from companies where SOME DEVELOPERS ACTUALLY ARE WOMEN, which I think must be at least reasonably important to point out.

There is absolutely no winning, is there?... *Sigh* I think people should just give up as soon as they realize they've been born male, because it really seems not to be worth the hassle sometimes -_-

EDIT: Oh and another thing is... some may point out "well.... those characters don't look like men [I/most women/some women/somebody else] would be attracted to".

So?

Do all men find all female game characters sexy? Do most? Do most find most sexy?

Christ, they're GAME CHARACTERS to begin with. You're not even meant to find them particularly sexy in the first place.

EDIT: Oh and as a closing note, I also don't like that someone is automatically a "perv" or some such if their sexuality operates in a way different from someone else, or in a way that they don't like.
If men happen to place more value on X or Y than a woman does, I guess that makes them shallow.

Perhaps men should just start judging women by factors like height and wealth instead, then maybe they'd be happy? ;D

 

[Lightknight]

I only really wish to chime in regarding one regularly repeated piece of information that is misleading and will touch on some other concepts following it.

The gamer ratio being male/female as 53%/47% does not mean that the FPS ration is 53%/47% or that the gamers playing Uncharted or anything else would follow that ratio. The last study that actually broke up console ownership by sex actually put 80% of all female console gamers in the study as Wii gamers. This was 2008/2009 when the demographic divide was 60%/40% and it isn't entirely unlikely that the evening of the gaming ratio isn't related to the rapid integration of smart phones and iOS games at our fingertips over the past 5 or so years.

I'm not saying this makes objectification of women ok. They are clearly objectified in a ton of games as defined here by Jim and the men are not. This is only to point out that the real market audience of games like Gears of War may still be significantly more male than female. The question is, does that make it ok? Does that change anything here? If the ratio were as wildly out of whack as 90%/10% would that justify the kind of silliness we've seen in the DOA titles? Would making female friendly games encourage female participation or is there an actual different in gaming styles between the sexes (whether evolved or culturally based, doesn't functionally matter)? Are movies that objectify women wrong for doing so or are they justified for meeting a niche market?

I'd also posit that women have body parts that lend themselves to exaggeration. Breasts, ass, legs, hip ratios, these are easily demonstrated and easily exaggerated. There's not a ton you can exaggerate on a man that is desireable to people other than muscles, a toned ass and perhaps some kind of bulge in ye' ol' panteloons region. To that effect, I would like to believe that if men had things that were so easily exaggerated that they would be as well, and, guys would probably want it to be. In the same vein, I have known women who want to look the way the women look in these games and will actually surgically change themselves to exaggerate their own features in this way. It is merely an interesting concept that women physically do this to themselves as well. Just something to think about.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Perhaps I might see it, however I can't personally nor do I know of any other male who can even remotely be described as constantly leering, nor do I personally know a single woman who has ever complained that they are being leered at 24/7. I just don't buy it.

I said neither of those things.

I didn't say that men were constantly leering, nor did I say that women get leered at 24/7. I just said that many women get leered at every day. It might be only for 5 minutes per day. And it doesn't mean that the man leers at everything he sees. But women are pretty consistently leered at. Men, not so much.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Well, you just read me writing it. It may not be the same as hearing someone say it, but there it is. If more cars on the road were more like BMWs, then that would be a good thing. I don't feel superior because not everyone can afford one. It would be fantastic if more people drove them. It's not something that makes me feel insecure. They are very good cars - why wouldn't I want more people to drive such good cars? It would make the roads safer and more pleasant to drive on.

Which are two selfish reasons to want to spread BMW's. So my point stands.

Not really. Even if there is some selfish motivation, it still improves things for others. And how is considering the safety and pleasure of others selfish, anyway?

You seem to be revising your "point" - you claimed that people do not or should not consider other people in their purchasing decisions. I offered a counter-example. The good of others often improves the good of oneself. The betterment of society also tends to increase the betterment of the individual. So making choices that purely concern yourself, don't tend to be great choices.

And how are they problematic? And the monetary reasons are bullshit? So you have conducted market studies ?

Market studies? That would assume that "the market" is the only thing that matters, and making money is the sole measure of worth. You may believe that, but I do not.

As for completely one-sides gender portrayals being problematic, then if you can't see that, then I can't help you.

I'm sorry that I would put more faith in a marketing department of a big company which probably spend a lot of time studying the market than a random poster who probably only has his word to back up the claim it's not a monetary sound business practice. The fact it's less exploited doesn't mean it's more profitable, niche markets for example are usually de-facto less exploited but you won't see every big business venturing in them exactly because it's a niche market.
Gaming companies are run by people who want to make profit, not bro dudes who want to exclude women.

How are women a "niche market"? They are the majority of the population.

I'm also not sure why you put such blind faith in marketers and companies. Companies and marketers fail all the time, often spectacularly. I wouldn't trust them to understand human beings. They tend to run on momentum and flawed assumptions, not intelligence or evidence. And many game companies do tend to be composed of bro dudes who want to exclude women.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

...meanwhile, if somebody mentioned that games were being insensitive by routinely depicting the disproportionate mass slaughter of men (and usually only men), they'd be disregarded out of hand, ...

I don't disregard that out-of-hand. I think it's actually a significant issue in gaming.

 

[MrsBloo]

"I want to see more women getting interested in games and game development, but stuff like this only serves to further cement the idea that you're stepping into a male hobby rather than something that is more inclusive"

"No way, it's totally impossible to make characters that men and women can both enjoy and find cool! Better stop with that line of reasoning fast, or the next thing you know we'll have to start being clever and insightful about how we approach this kind of stuff and that's just way too much to ask of people who do this for a living." -Chemical Alia


There is so much id like to say, yet sum up with a punch to your face because honestly, how you've represented yourself, this is the only logical thing to do. However, I will humor your silly yet inaccurate fight for sexism and your lack of ability to apply yourself to the fullest potential as a video game artist.

You cannot be more wrong or misspoken than you have already shown yourself as. You do not and cannot speak for all women. This is a FACT for your opinion.

Chemical Alia aka Shaylyn Hamm, this is why you were not sought for in character design and only what you were educated in, environmental art. Apparently there is a lot you need to learn about in the industry. like How you represent yourself and how you will always represent the company you work for. I believe this is why we so often see ignorant and childish statements like yours followed by an apology.

The look of an individual CANNOT be sexist. Sexism is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex. Sexist attitudes may stem from traditional stereotypes of gender roles, and may include the belief that a person of one sex is intrinsically superior to a person of the other.

If a beautiful voluptuous woman walks down the street wearing the same outfit as the Sorceress would that mean she is being sexist? Or That she is a very confident woman that is not ashamed of her body? Some girls, dont like to show skin. Others do and some too much. But shouldn't one always be happy with their body appearance? Should one always cover up because another says that;s the way? No.

Your opinion and attitude is Very immature and ignorant in the practice of art and gaming. And clearly are not a REAL artist. I am not talking about your background or ability, more rather the fact that as an "artist" you failed to appreciate another artists stroke of the pen. instead of criticism you showed judgment and jealousy. And nothing of professional standard.

I am a female and I play games, as you like to say "male based games" and neutral based games. Even the games that are considered girl based games. Seeing a sexier chick on a game is not going to make me want to NOT play. wtf? I love this shit. Its Super sexy and can be badass. If anything, This is even incorporating Thick, voluptuous woman. Instead of super unrealistic skinny chicks with just as big of boobs. I see curves and confidence I see a necromancer.

This is fantasy, i dont want normal girls, i see that everyday in life! Laaaaaame.

****Did i mention, I am a female? Did I mention I was going to buy this game, cause i am. Did I mention why?Cause me and my Bf agree, the sorceress, shes totally hot <3

 

[generals3]

Well, you just read me writing it. It may not be the same as hearing someone say it, but there it is. If more cars on the road were more like BMWs, then that would be a good thing. I don't feel superior because not everyone can afford one. It would be fantastic if more people drove them. It's not something that makes me feel insecure. They are very good cars - why wouldn't I want more people to drive such good cars? It would make the roads safer and more pleasant to drive on.

Which are two selfish reasons to want to spread BMW's. So my point stands.

Not really. Even if there is some selfish motivation, it still improves things for others. And how is considering the safety and pleasure of others selfish, anyway?

You seem to be revising your "point" - you claimed that people do not or should not consider other people in their purchasing decisions. I offered a counter-example. The good of others often improves the good of oneself. The betterment of society also tends to increase the betterment of the individual. So making choices that purely concern yourself, don't tend to be great choices.

I don't revise anything. My point was that consumers rarely go lobby for other people's preferences. You justified your choice for wanting others to have BMW's because it'd make the streets more pleasant to drive on. Unless you don't like driving on pleasant streets it's obvious it is for you that you're lobbying. That it happens to make others happier is just a happy coincidence. If i lobby for a certain sets of games it may make other consumers who have the same preferences happy as well, but it's not for them i do it.(though i may use others as an extra justification for my argument, which what i'd call "abusing emotional response to altruism", a very common type of emotional appeal) The altruistic consumer is a very rare breed.

And how are they problematic? And the monetary reasons are bullshit? So you have conducted market studies ?

Market studies? That would assume that "the market" is the only thing that matters, and making money is the sole measure of worth. You may believe that, but I do not.

You claimed the monetary reasons are BS. If you wanted to use other arguments to defend your opinion you should have done so. You tried to recycle my own argument against my own point.

As for completely one-sides gender portrayals being problematic, then if you can't see that, then I can't help you.

But let's push it a bit further than shall we. What about how few games feature black people? What about muslims? Etc. There is no inherent need to include everyone. If a game decides to have only important male characters you'd need a damn fine argument to say WHY that is bad because by default it isn't. You see if you have a game which tries to mimick real life and shows thousands of NPC's and none are women you could raise your eyebrow because that would seem as a very bad representation of Real Life. But in a random fantasy game or one which only features a very limited set of characters, it's a whole different piece of cake.

How are women a "niche market"? They are the majority of the population.

I'm also not sure why you put such blind faith in marketers and companies. Companies and marketers fail all the time, often spectacularly. I wouldn't trust them to understand human beings. They tend to run on momentum and flawed assumptions, not intelligence or evidence. And many game companies do tend to be composed of bro dudes who want to exclude women.

Ok let me clarify something. If you make a game you don't target all women nor all men for that matter. You target potential costumers. If the potential costumers happen to be predominantly men than that's what you want to target. The cosmetic industry also largely ignores men despite men accounting for 49% of the population and let me tell you there is a good reason for that, because said 49% is in general much less interested in beauty products. So while you may have 3.6 billion women and 3.4 billion men (random number, didn't feel like googling the real number because it is largely irrelevant) you'll probably have something like 3 billion potential female costumers and 1 billion potential male costumers. Which would totally justify a much bigger focus on the female segment.

 

[Cellseam]

I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
http://www.bundyology.com/bal2.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oJk4uH5eXdY/TVylPQrTwnI/AAAAAAAAAFw/whLXMmyXaOE/s1600/peggy.jpg
Which standard is harder to live up to?

GEE, that's an interesting point, that has nothing to do with this video. This video is about sexual objectification, not role models.