Jimquisition: Sexual Failing

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leviadragon99

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And yet... in Bioware games, I actually care about the characters, especially my romantic partners, staying loyal to Liara through three games, pining for Leiliana and heartbroken when Merril's plans went so badly awry, I consider that the strength of the writing in those games makes the sex purely incidental to my relationships with them, that it's the journey, not the destination that I care about, however awkward and flawed and accidentally negative-viewpoint enabling the design may be for some, I still consider those romances to have worth.
 

RobfromtheGulag

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I believe I already watched a 'Let's Play' of Machine for Pigs on Sterling-tube. I was surprised to find JS on there amidst all the other reaction vids.

It struck me as novel playing DA:O first of all Bioware games; that they had the Japanese romance game scenario going on. There are entire games made just of that, so having it as a side game was fun. It's true that it's rather cheap fun, but I prefer at least a half-assed attempt to make it meaningful to the 'Look! Tits!' approach of Dante's Inferno or GoW. That's just me though. It would be nice if we could step further along the path of enlightenment and give it a point. It seems a bit ironic to deride Bioware for making it a result and Heavy Rain as well when it's just arbitrary there. It seems to fit each better (linear gameplay vs open world play at your own pace). If we want 'meaningful' sex then we have to have 'meaningful' characters first, and that seems to me to be a tad harder.
 

Ukomba

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As a married man with 3 kids, and a wife who loves the Dragon Age and Mass Effect romances, this video couldn't be more off the mark for me.
 

Tomeran

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I almost always agree with Jim about everything, even when he's bashing Bioware and the ME-franchise, despite them being my favourite game developers and game trilogy.

But this time I cant help get the feeling that he's out fishing a bit. His larger point may still be fairly spot-on, but he uses a poor set of examples by mentioning Bioware and especielly the ME-franchise as examples.

The ME-series is really not about sex. Despite some sort of absurd belief, ME2 is really not about Miranda's arse. Sorry, no. Anyone that seriously thinks that is not taking the game even remotely as the RPG it is.

Is there a degree of "sexualized content" in the game? Yes. Does that have to be wrong? In some cases it is wrong if its overdone, but sweet jesus, there's A LOT of games that do it WAY WORSE and in WAY MORE DEMEANING AND TERRIBLE WAYS then friggin' bioware games.

I am outright surprised that Jim has to use Bioware as a constant example in this, because they tend to focus very little about the sex scenes themselves(they are very short and very rarely detailed), but rather the relationship itself you build up with the character.

This is especielly true in the ME-franchise(and maybe less so in the dragon age franchise) because its a consecutive trilogy where you gradually build your relations with your companions and your love interest. Hell that's what half the game is about. Its not just about a "quick sex fix" and I seriously doubt many people consider it to be the case.
I'd like to see the person that follows through on a classical Liara romance(she is generally the most popular choice, I've heard) and in the end truthfully states "I did it for the 20-second sexy scene where you almost see a blue side-boob". No. Im not buying it. Its not a scene that's added for people to masturbate to, its there because its a part of a relationship, a relationship you gradually build up.

Dragon Age origins is the only example I can think of where you use some sort of "gift and reward" system, and I admit that's silly. DA:O might also be perhaps the more sexualized bioware game out there, so for that specific title there may be a hint of truth. But not for the rest, not even DA 2.

If you're looking for poorly written "sex-fests" Jim, then you're -seriously- looking in the wrong direction.


You want a game with overly sexualized content? Try the original Witcher 1 game. Sleep with women and get friggin' pokemon collectors card the more you sleep with. Now THERE you have a good example.
Witcher 2 does it slightly more tasteful, and to a way lesser degree, but it still has a fairly strong emphasis on sex. Or Tera, where scantily clad women and sex appeal is half the point of the game rather then any storyline or character depth.

The ME games? They're 0.1% sex, its barely worth mentioning. Unless you're Fox News.
 

Nepenthe87

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You used Morrigan pictures a lot in your video, but I feel that Morrigan actually broke the "norm" of the dragon age/mass effect relationships that you were talking about. Sex with Morrigan was not the end-game in your relationship with her in dragon age. Far from it, in fact if Morrigan started to acknowledge her love for you she stopped having any base intimacy with you at all.

Having sex with Morrigan was actually the most insignificant part of your relationship with her. To me, it seemed that having sex was just part of the fun of going on this adventure for her, at first. Even at the end, as long as you are male, she uses sex to fulfill her own desires, by creating a jesus-like god-baby.

It's only if you try to break through her shell does she actually come to respect you as a person and love you as a significant other. She even stops being intimate with you when she feels her feelings for you conflict with the goals at hand. Out of all the Dragon Age/mass effect romances I would say hers is the closest to being realistic (still far from a real relationship). It's also only at that very end part does she actually say that you were something more to her than a means to an end, and even then she still seems a bit distant and pragmatic about the entire situation. You literally have to fight for her affections for the entire game if you want her to be your romantic option.

Of course, gaining her affections is basically a "choose the right option" mini-game, but romances in games like that will probably never change. Romances that feel real in a video game will probably only happen in a completely linear and not player controlled scenario. Any time the player has a choice of trying to make X care for them will always turn into a right/wrong answer situation.
 

aozgolo

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As much as I definitely think there's a huge amount of sexism that needs to be addressed, I don't think removing sex from video games is the way to do it. I can applaud Bioware if for nothing else making all their sex scenes completely optional content. To me people who find nudity and sex scenes distasteful in games and want them removed is the same with people who wish they would quit making JRPGs because they don't like anime. It's a preference, it's always been a preference. Sure not all mature games need sex and nudity to be mature but arguing that they shouldn't be there or that they need to always be tastefully done is kind of bogus. I'm sorry if you want your Mass Effect and Dragon Age sex free, you're not getting it... oh wait... you are, just don't follow that particular quest line.

This kind of relationship style has been perpetuated in games for years. Harvest Moon, an E rated game, a game suitable for children who are still developing their social and sexual identity had relationships far more basic, give enough gifts until they marry you then have a child. What about the game The Sims, a T Rated game suitable for anyone 13 and older, "Teens" in their primary sexual identification age, who could play a game where you can make whoopie on a heart shaped bed after one good night of conversation and dancing.

But now suddenly games with Mature ratings have the audacity to corrupt our world viewpoint of sex because they dare include optional sexual encounters in them? This is the same argument of gratuity in video games, and how is it that violence is more socially acceptable in media than nudity or sex? These are bigger sociological issues than just video games however, but I implore people claiming sex scenes in M Rated games are tasteless, pointless, and shouldn't be there to take a step back and realize they don't need to play those games just like I don't need to play games that glorify violence if I so choose. Then having the audacity to claim that M Rated games set a poor precedent role model for people to approach sex and gender issues, well that goes hand in hand with blaming violent video games for crime doesn't it?

I have been in a happy relationship for over 6 years, I never have once asserted that women are sex objects or that sex is a reward. I have never in any way, shape, or form considered one gender superior to another, yet I completely enjoy sex, pornography, and yes even sex in video games because like anything else, it can carry an emotional experience for roleplaying. You may be hanging around too many 4Chan users with their waifus if you think otherwise. It's true there's a huge amount of sexist stupid people in the world who truly believe women are sexual slot machines that take emotional and material currency, but video games having or not having "tasteful sex scenes" is certainly not going to change that.

I would actually argue that making sex scenes in games "tasteful" is undermining the very audience who enjoys them. I mean honestly I'm not sitting there with my trousers down wanking it to Mass Effect's love scenes but they're already pretty tasteful as it is (if you tried to post screenshots from them on a porn site people would laugh at you). Dumbing them down further seems an attempt at pandering to one audience while losing the other. Either go all out or not at all. I'm not saying full blown porn in a game (we have porn games thank you), but what's a little late night cinemax style grinding gonna hurt anyone?

I don't feel sex is a problem in video games, yes you can do RELATIONSHIPS more tastefully but we've always been in an uncanny valley as far as relationships go. The best relationship I've ever had with a video game character came from a player made MOD for Skyrim called Vilja. There's simply too much you have to put into characters to make this level of relationship work, and it can be done but should it be done when it's not the meat and potatoes of the game? Does the fact that a game has a central focus mean that you should cut auxillary content solely on the grounds that it's not as fleshed out? I don't think so, and while yes I understand, and I can see that the relationships in Bioware games are lacking, I am thankful they are included because I enjoyed them for what they are. More importantly I'm an adult and I know if I tried to seduce my girlfriend the same way I seduced Liara, I'd probably get slapped.

Thank God for Jim.
 

PirateRose

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As a female fan of Bioware games, I have to disagree on many points.

You see, in Mass Effect, you don't have to do anything at all. Most of the characters are automatically in love with Shepard from the start, from the very beginning, especially several female characters are mysteriously all over male and female Shepard like all they had to do was look at them. Hell, like numerous players I accidentally got into a romance with Liara and I'm still scratching my head over which option I perceived to be friendly was really a secret let's have hot alien lesbian sex option. I proceeded to treat Liara like crap for three games, and she was still available and trying to get into Shepard's pants by the third game.

Then there was the Escapist praised, "realistic" lesbian Traynor who was so incredibly desperate to get naked and wet in female Shepard's bathroom. Twice thanks to Citadel DLC, only the second time you can't stop her. She just strips naked and beelines to Shepard's hot tub, and it's also fairly done for the male players to witness.

The Bioware team for Mass Effect never wanted to make a mini game or challenge at all. The male love interests tend to have a bit of story meat to them, a couple have to be won over but it's still easy. The only real challenge is trying to role play a straight female Shepard through all three games, because most if not all of her options disappear by ME3. It's just whether or not they are made unavailable because they are suddenly dating someone else(Garrus/Jacob/Joker, yes, Shepard can hit on Joker) or they mysteriously are completely incapable of having a relationship with Shepard(Vega, who constantly hits on her like a big vagina tease) or they are killed off without much of a story at all(Thane, and if you played the game a certain way, Kaidan). Literally, you can enter ME3 with no male options for Female Shepard, but plenty of horny lesbians who will randomly mention getting a house with a white picket fence just so it can seem more serious and mature.

Dragon Age 1 did have the gift giving mechanic, Dragon Age 2 however did not rely on it nearly as much, you either won good favor through doing what the character wanted or completely countering what they wanted. The first time I played I missed most of the gifts, and I didn't treat a certain male character politely. He started acting up and I'd pick the option where Hawke would make fun of his tantrum or argue him till he straightened out. I literally only picked two flirt options and spent the rest of the game going against everything this character said said. Now it can either be perceived that the romances in DA2 are made more like Mass Effect, little to no challenge, or you can look at it as a pretty interesting bit of romantic development, because the opposite attracts thing is fun. Then again, there are some shaky ground on the fact you can completely, utterly violate a few character's core beliefs and still lock them into sex.

I hoping Dragon Age 3 will still maintain a balance where I can freely criticize and disagree with a potential love interest, with more character development, as well as fan servicing to the female fans where Mass Effect completely, utterly failed.
 

Drummodino

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themilo504 said:
I think that no movie TV show or game should have sex scenes unless its porn, sex scenes are completely pointless in a story since there?s nothing a cut to black can?t achieve, the only point of sex scenes is to titillate the watchers/readers/gamers and maybe it?s because I?m(possibly) a asexual but I think that?s a terrible reason that has no place in a good story.

In the past I tried out a romance subplot of mass effect and dragon age because I was curious how they worked, nowadays I always ignore them and it does bug me how sometimes even if I show zero interest a potential love interest still wants to start a relation.

I do however always pair off my avatar in fire emblem awakening for game play reasons, and when I play a human noble in dragon age origins I always marry the queen so that I can become king.
I don't know if this has already been said but I don't have time to read another six pages of comments.

A cut to black in my opinion works most of the time. For games with romance plots like Mass Effect, you don't need to see Liara's bare behind. They had sex, and it was good - we can get this from just seeing something simple, like them cuddling after the act.

However I feel that sex scenes have their place when what occurs during the act itself has an effect on the relationship between the characters. For example, if the sex was awkward they may have trouble talking to each other after. In this case the audience needs to have seen the scene to realize that it was actually awkward (in my opinion).

To be fair though no video game I can think of does this (Katawa Shoujo does but I hesitate to call it a game). To paraphrase Jim, sex is seen as a reward or the culmination of a romance plot. We definitely don't need to see the sex if we're not going to get any further relationship development from the characters.
 

Endocrom

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So who is Willem Dafoe's little violet buddy up on the lectern? He's been there a while, I must have missed his intro.
 

Redd the Sock

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I like to think we're just trying to get there. Games get put under the microscope so much by conservative groups, it might be wise to adhere to an old fashioned "sex is for people you love, and you generally love people that are nice to you" mindset.

Though, kindness = reward isn't limited to sex in gaming. It's got an engrained set of functions. Mass Effect 2 was padded with "help the crew or watch them die" just to keep it in Bioware. Still, I seem to have more than a few RPGs with an affection system which you use to gain more powers. Persona 4 gets you items and more powerful teammates. Disgaea D2 improves team attack odds. I think we've all forcibly got a pokemon to high affection just for the evolution. Hell, any quest system can be summed up as "help the people -> get stuff. It's no surprise sex gets treated no differently.
 

TakeyB0y2

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Jun 24, 2011
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Tomeran said:
Er, I think you missed his point. He wasn't saying those games are "sex-fests", not even remotely. What he was doing was calling out the developers for saying their sex scenes are going to be "tasteful and mature" when really their whole reason for existing in the first place is anything but.

Also, I'd hardly call "We had three conversations, we are eternally in love! Let's have sex!" build-up.
 

An Individual

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I generally agree with Jim on this. Particularly with his criticism of Bioware's approach. However, at least in Bioware's case it's usually part of a wider relationship that they are trying to build between the player and the character even if the approach tends to be a bit shallow.

I think David Gaider's response to this interview question is interesting given the topical at the moment. Especially the bit at 45:35.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vsj8wDZpPNA#t=2638

This bit about Morrigan from right before that question is also interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vsj8wDZpPNA#t=2524
 

aozgolo

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I've already stood on my soapbox quite a bit in my last post but really I want to know what people expect the alternative to be? Either you want no romance period or allow romance with the sex scenes? I mean we're not children, we know what two people in love do with each other. I'm a huge fan of anime, and I love the harem genre but it irks me to no end when male characters act oblivious or ashamed of sex. It creates this series long fixation of arbitrary "will they/won't they" thing that is irksome and annoying when you have characters literally throwing themselves at the protagonist.

How else do you show in a game like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, or even The Witcher how a relationship culminates if not through sex? Every other aspect of games has a payoff at the end, what else is there? A kiss on the cheek? Are we 5th graders now?

I mean if people's complaint is just that relationships are done bad and unrealistically, go play a Visual Novel that's all about that, and don't argue because Mass Effect added it in.

I can sympathize with people who say it wasn't balanced or where playing one gender as one orientation felt biased as characters frequently mistake friendliness for affection, but then again that is "realism" for you. I find it kind of interesting that you could potentially lock out the few choices you actually want and be surrounded by fawning admirers who all got "the wrong idea". Though for something included for fan-service, it can be annoying.
 

deathjavu

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Shaun Kennedy said:
How else do you show in a game like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, or even The Witcher how a relationship culminates if not through sex? Every other aspect of games has a payoff at the end, what else is there? A kiss on the cheek? Are we 5th graders now?
Well, considering IRL sex can happen within the first few weeks of a relationship, there must be some relationship stuff that takes place afterwards ;)

In all seriousness, it is super weird if the relationship story doesn't continue anywhere after sex. The only logical story explanation for that I could think of is that your character was so bad at sexin' your partner wants to break up, but can't figure out how to tell you. There should be more dialogue or discussions you can have afterwards, because, y'know, that's how it actually goes.

Thinking back to DA:O and reading some of the other comments, Morrigan was actually pretty well done in that respect. Of course, as the most plot-important character it's not entirely surprising her romantic arc is also the most intricate.