Jimquisition: Sexual Failing

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Thank you. When you're right, you are so on the mark it's ridiculous.

Personally, sex scenes add nothing to a game. I talk to characters and do things with them because it's part of the game and because I'm interested in their interactions. The shallow sex scene is often just the point where you realise "Oh, now it's just going to be the one line of dialogue over and over again. This character will not have anything interesting to do or say."

 

[aozgolo]

How else do you show in a game like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, or even The Witcher how a relationship culminates if not through sex? Every other aspect of games has a payoff at the end, what else is there? A kiss on the cheek? Are we 5th graders now?

Well, considering IRL sex can happen within the first few weeks of a relationship, there must be some relationship stuff that takes place afterwards

In all seriousness, it is super weird if the relationship story doesn't continue anywhere after sex. The only logical story explanation for that I could think of is that your character was so bad at sexin' your partner wants to break up, but can't figure out how to tell you. There should be more dialogue or discussions you can have afterwards, because, y'know, that's how it actually goes.

Thinking back to DA:O and reading some of the other comments, Morrigan was actually pretty well done in that respect. Of course, as the most plot-important character it's not entirely surprising her romantic arc is also the most intricate.

While generally I agree with you, I don't think the poor execution of having sex scenes in games warrants their exclusion. To be honest this is a problem that goes beyond games and applies to a lot of media.

Look at romantic comedies. 99% of them all deal with "getting together", it's no wonder so many relationships fail when all we tend to focus on as a culture is the "getting together" part and focus so little of our time and effort into what to do to "stay together". Of course in many cases a happy relationship between two people rarely makes good storytelling.

I'm not suggesting that sex is the by-all-end-all of relationships, it's not what it's all about, but in a video game, a media all about cheap thrills and gratification, how are you supposed to represent that a relationship has in deed blossomed into something? Dialogue? Well yeah we have that but without some display of affection that is not vocal how are we supposed to gratify that this is indeed a relationship? I mean we could have them holding hands while they mercilessly execute aliens and undead monsters, they could call each other pet names, etc. etc. Bottom line is though very little has the visual impact of a relationship realized than sex.

I haven't played David Cage's games but I fail to see how his opinion on the matter is any more valid than anyone elses. My point is simply that sex can be used as a convenient storytelling mechanism the same as violence, and if it's done poorly or gratuitously how is that any different than how violence is done? Why argue one and not the other? It's really very silly for me to see adults argue about game characters grinding in their underwear as somehow worse than seeing brain matter splattering the other side of your monitor when you blow someone's head off.

Everyone has their idea of gratification, and if sex isn't your thing don't play games with that in it. It's well established that Bioware games have sex (which is very very tame as far as sex scenes go) so why bother playing if that's not your thing? They are avoidable sure, so you don't even have to see them.

I'm not arguing that they are fine as is, yes relationships could be shown more realistically, yes the sex scenes could be done better and put in more realistic situations, and yes I suppose they could even be made more tasteful by not having medieval fantasy characters with lacy thongs, but I came into this thread assuming the argument Jim and others made was that sex had no place in video games at all because it can't be done tastefully. To that I say nay, leave my sex scenes alone.

 

[Schmeiser]

I think Naughty Dog nailed females in uncharted. They can obviously look out for themselves, they actually save Nathan quite a few times. The sex is implied never shown unless you count the chloe part in uncharted 2. There are no overly sexualized females. And it's pretty clear that drake cares about chloe and elena not just because they want to have sex with him. Now if you didn't have to kill around 150 men between each cutscene i would say uncharted would be one of the better games of our generation.

In games banter and flirting between chars just seems so fake. I mean we all atleast once engaged in some sort of flirting(if you haven't i apologize i didn't mean to offend) and they never portray it right. Make it natural

 

[ZexionSephiroth]

I kinda never got why Sex has to be an "End Game" to a relationship arc. Or even necessary to be shown at all.

Heck, I'd be perfectly fine if in the middle of a Romantic arc it turns out they did it while we the Audience/Players weren't watching. Sort of an "Implied" thing.

In Real Life, there is no "End Game" to Relationship Arcs. Sex is just another complication in the most complicated dance of Romance. Just one step to be used to the tune. And the Dance lasts as long as the Music does, and the music is whatever it is that attracts them to each other.

Anyways, it could just be me, but I kinda prefer my intimate moments to be more snuggle than "Le D***". Sex is actually kinda Lame.

What I like involves... Maybe one lying back in the other's arms, rubbing ones face and head across the others chest, neck and face... A bit of hair stroking... A bit of scratching behind the ears... A little playful lick on the nose... And... I think a tail is supposed to play something into this? (Stupid Tailless Arse)... And... Perhaps some wing preening? With... teeth?

Why are you looking at me like that? I... Think I need to go find my Plushie for a snuggle.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

While generally I agree with you, I don't think the poor execution of having sex scenes in games warrants their exclusion. To be honest this is a problem that goes beyond games and applies to a lot of media.

Who is it that is calling for the exclusion of sex scenes in games? Certainly not Jim.

From this video, it just seems that he wants to see better sex scenes in games, not to eliminate them. He even gives that silly volleyball game kudos for being honest about its titillating intent.

 

[ForumSafari]

Without meaning to be too disruptive/divisive that's not what the friend zone is.

The friend zone is not when a guy feels entitled to sex because he's a 'nice guy', it's when he wants more than friendship and for one reason or another the girl sees him only as a friend.

In other words, exactly how Jim described it.

But not really no, because there's no blame involved. The whole way the 'friend zone' is used makes it sound like either the guy's faulkt for objectifying the woman or the woman's fault for leading him on. Jim does the normal 'vending machine for vagina' comparison but the fact is it's not generally down to anyone being unreasonable, it's normally a genuine lack of communication.

I hate it when people describe the friend zone as feeling entitlement to sex, it's not that at all and that's just a nice way to get people to shut up.

 

[rofltehcat]

Am I the only one reading the title as "sexual flailing" at first?

 

[Smeatza]

You're wrong about sex in Battlestar Galactica and Mass Effect. The romance subplots in Mass Effect 1 & 2 end immediately after their respective sex scenes (I admit to not playing Mass Effect 3 and have no idea how sex is treated there) and no further development is had other than a throw-away "I got fucked hard" acknowledgement by your chosen LI.

A misrepresentation.
For a male Shepard both the romantic subplots' love scenes (not sex scenes) occur in the endgame (not as the endgame) for reasons explained in the plot.

Worse, the game clearly doesn't take these romance subplots seriously as it's not even possible to continue to explore that relationship in the sequel. Transitioning from Mass Effect 1 to 2 your LI wasn't even really present in the game. The sole exception being Liara T'soni but only if you shell out for Lair of the Shadow Broker. Even then the subplot was given the same treatment as in the first. You have a nice conversation, you fuck her and then development stops flat. ME2 doesn't even have the excuse that ME1 does with the game ending shortly after the sex scene.

Liara doesn't get a a sex/love scene in Lair of the Shadow broker. Just a Carry On film moment.
But your issue with Mass Effect 2 is more valid.
The romance subplots from the original do return in the second sequel. It's difficult to assess how seriously the franchise took them overall. I don't think love scenes as the endgame is a problem in number 3 though.

 

[Guiltyone]

Completely wrong. Sex is not the end of relationship with a character - it's a culmination, sure, but not only in games. Movies and books use it in this role too, as does life. Bioware games are very good in moving your relationship with a character past sex to deeper themes and events. For gods sake, sex scene with Liara is a culmination of her and Sh. story arc in the first game, but their relationship continues to evolve throught TWO MORE COMPLETE GAMES! And Jack, for example, offers you sex very early in the game, but if you accept that offer it actually ruins your chance to have a meaningful relationship with her.
Completely wrong.

 

[Ukomba]

Am I the only one getting a weird virgin shaming vibe off this episodes?

 

[JasonKaotic]

I agree with the video, but while it's probably been said somewhere here already, you kind of have the wrong idea of what the friendzone is.
It's just when you like someone but they just see you as a friend. There aren't necessarily any sex or obligations involved.
Just saying.
But then you are Jim Sterling, and I am a humble commoner, so I will just go sit in this corner now.

 

[Karadalis]

Sex scenes? What sex scenes?

That bit of nude wrestling in mass effect was considered a sex scene? Boy you Us people are really afraid of sex arent you?

Heck tali didnt even bothered to take her bloody suit off when she jumped into bed with my shephard!

I really dont get why this is such a noteworthy topic that jim felt the need to make an episode about it, aparantly it has been a slow week or something.

The scenes where hilariously bad to begin with. Sure its okay to call out bioware for calling these awkward scenes "tastefull"

But it somehow feels wrong making an entire episode about the point that bioware puts in clunky sex scenes in their game.

Its not really a big issue in the great scheme of things and those "sex scenes" if you can even call them that are completly and utterly skippable.

Sure it sucks that once you reach that point in most bioware games the romance suddenly stops and has absolutely no effect on the rest of the game but that again is an overall problem of plain old bad story writing.

Thats why people created an entire mod for baldurs gate 2 that allowed you to interact in intimate ways with your partner even after the "main" romance story ended.

But besides bioware and heavy rain... i cant think of any other example of these things happening in the industry... because sex in tripple A titles is such a huge taboo it seems that in most games sex doesnt even exist in their universe. Aparantly all children in Skyrim just apear out of nowhere and are orphans till they get adopted by people with very loud voices. Just as an example.

Also the part about sex being the goal... that only seems that way because the romance storylines allways end as soon as the deed is done... this is bad writing all in all and not different from other plotholes in games.. just that this time its about sex.

And jim... i dont want to question your methods... but usually if person A wants to have sex with person B he is very nice to person B beforehand. The only debatable part here is giving material gifts to your choosen romance interest to make her drop her panties... not that that is completly unheard of in the real world either.

All in all i feel that the whole topic is so dismissable as another case of "biowares bad writing" that it didnt deserved to be picked out like that when biowares overall story telling quality has gone down the drain over recent years.

 

[Quadocky]

I kinda like how Fable 3 handled it. ... at the same time having children appear that quickly while disorientating at least gives a sort of purpose to the act of procreation.

There is something a bit different about getting Married first, before the whole sex thing.

 

[Quadocky]

Thats why people created an entire mod for baldurs gate 2 that allowed you to interact in intimate ways with your partner even after the "main" romance story ended.

eeeeeeeehhhhh I disagree. The love arc in these ones were actually quite interesting and much more in depth. Wanna know why? Because for the most part they were out of your control. The potential 'lovers' trigger on their own, and once they do, they will never again, even if you load saved game in an attempt to 'undo' something you said during these intimate moments. That and the romance arcs pretty much continue into the expansion pack and to the end of the game anyway.

Also arn't these the same modders that made a mod in which you can 'romance' an under aged woman? BleRrrrugh. CREEEEEPY

 

[Riot3000]

Am I the only one getting a weird virgin shaming vibe off this episodes?

No your are not but remember virgin shaming falls under the bus with the friend zone and nice guy accusations you know a one stop shopping thing.

Am I the only one reading the title as "sexual flailing" at first?

Lol I did too at first but with many responses asking for all sex "should" be handled it feels like "sexual flailing".

 

[The Ubermensch]

Playing devils advocate; it's hard to establish chemistry in a game like Dragon Age as the character is more or less a Tabula Rasa and we project onto them. The do want to give us as an immerse experience as possible, make the world seem as alive as possible, and to some people that means being able to bang everything that moves. There is something to be said for sex simply for sexes sake mate.

In saying that, I agree with your statement Jim, that this shameless promotion of these "features" and calling them mature is a little on the nose. They are Harem Wish Fulfillment with crappy writing at best. You talk to a DA or ME fanboy/girl and they all have their Waifu or Husbando from the series. I suppose in that way it's just as "mature" as the player makes it out to be;

Spoiler: unfortunately...

the player is more often than not a man raised by a woman.

You want "Mature" and... I would describe it as tasteful, but then I'm deep in the BDSM community so...

I want Jim to do a review of Saya No Uta... I want to know if he thinks Fuminori is the hero or the villan...

EDIT: I want to see his face just after he's fallen all the way down the rabbit hole and he knows what true love is. I want to know if he's the self styled charismatic Ubermensch he proclaims himself to be.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

I agree with the video, but while it's probably been said somewhere here already, you kind of have the wrong idea of what the friendzone is.
It's just when you like someone but they just see you as a friend. There aren't necessarily any sex or obligations involved.
Just saying.
But then you are Jim Sterling, and I am a humble commoner, so I will just go sit in this corner now.

Nobody makes JasonKaotic feel like he has to put himself in the corner.

Your assessment is fairer. It's more about being saddened by unrequited feelings than it is about feeling like you're owed sex. When you see it as something that is more unfortunate than malevolent it is harder to be indignant about... So I understand the branding.

It's just a thing that happens. It happened to me, and I did it to others... That's how it goes. Love is a bastard.

 

[CatmanStu]

I've always seen sex/relationships in games as having two problems; and none of them are objectification.

The problem sex has is, unlike conflict, it is born of chemical stimuli rather than psychological and unless you are going to start shipping "specialised peripherals" it will never be able to scratch that itch.

The problem relationships in games have is that you kind of have to care about someone to have a relationship with them and very few games take the time to flesh out their characters to that extent, when they do they are so plot integral that they're made indestructible and you never have to worry about losing them.

It all boils down to the simple fact (one that has been noted by others) that games, for all they're advancements, are still crawling as far as storytelling is concerned.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

Just want to address this one blithering accusation.

I suppose you're trying to tell us you have standards now Jim, but these seem to be a new development and I can only conclude you've either gone and got religion or you really do have such complete and utter contempt for your audience that you think you can try this reinvention of your character and somehow get away with it without anybody noticing.

Considering the fact I've owned the shitty things I used to write, and have even given a candid interview on the very subject (http://www.gamingaswomen.com/posts/2013/06/an-interview-with-jim-sterling-about-sexism-in-game-culture/), the idea I'm hoping to "get away" with anything is a fantasy you've contrived from nothing.

People piss themselves with glee when they feel they get to throw the big "hypocrisy" word around, but changing one's outlook and taking steps to alter their behavior is not actually hypocritical. I fully own my years of shit writing. Yes, I DO have better standards now. I have worked consistently to attain them. And I don't WANT nobody to notice the change. I want people to see how awful my older writing was, and I hope it lets them know that even a total -- as you so gender-specifically called me -- twat can grow up and learn a thing or two.

You get a 7/10 for effort. Would have been higher, but it doesn't take THAT much to find links to articles I've never hidden, and have been cataloged already by far better writers than you.