Jimquisition: The Positive Side to Punching Nuns

[WindKnight]

Movies and comic book have always overly sexualized women, I don't see what makes Video Games so different, I mean no one screamed at the makers of the Sucker Punch movie for sexualizing their women. Ana they were REAL women and not ones made by ones and zeroes.

People complain about it in comics too and movies as well, but they get the usual Dudebro reply that seems to be coming in response to the criticisms of the trailer too.

 

[soh45400]

It would have been much more interesting to have the nuns use hitman's own stealth tatics against him by secretly setting up traps and then have 47 disable those traps and then silently kill them one by one like in the game, perhaps like the MardiGras assassin killing mission in Blood Money.

But I am not very angry at it because there is a female equal of sexualizing voilence. That is, Twilight and everything that has caught the Twilight bug and been ruined like Legend of Korra and Thundercats. Those things are female fantasies of men fighting over them and no one is as outraged about that.
Once people stop putting that in fiction, then I will be outraged at stuff like this.

 

[Something Amyss]

I think the only things that should be banned is media that intentionally glorify commiting illegal acts in real life, especially acts that deny a person's rights. So I would only count snuff films in my definition. (Mobster movies and stuff like I Spit on Your Grave are still allowed since they serve to show us how horrible some people are)

What about those mobster movies that DON'T serve to show how horrible some people are?

 

[Something Amyss]

Movies and comic book have always overly sexualized women, I don't see what makes Video Games so different, I mean no one screamed at the makers of the Sucker Punch movie for sexualizing their women. Ana they were REAL women and not ones made by ones and zeroes.

In fact, a lot of people screamed at the makers of Sucker Punch for sexualising their women.

 

[mdqp]

Just to put my 2 cents here: The trailer is bad because (aside from the fact that 47 is in it) does it have anything to do with a Hitman game? Sexuality has always been used in marketing, even for products that have really nothing to do with it. This seems just a bit silly, though, as the attire of these women would look ridiculous anywhere outside of a strip club, I guess. The violence is just violence, in a game that has an assassin as the main protagonist, that's a given, it just feels odd because the appearance of the antagonists makes it look out of place (now, if they were trying to seduce him, and then pulled out knives and guns, this would have made some sort of sense, but the way it is now, it's simply fanservice, hardly tied with the real game, I think/hope). Nothing particularly good or bad with fanservice, as long as it isn't a declaration of intents from the creators (I like the Hitman series as it has been up until now). It's like showing the picture of a sexy woman, seeing her riding a car and then telling me to go and buy that car. It has little to do with anything, the way it's made.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Separating the issues of the sexualization and the violence is - I think - causing some confusion as to why the trailer generates a controversy at all. It is not so much the fact that women are encountering a violent reaction to their own attempt of violence. It is not so much the fact that they are wearing what amounts to leather lingerie. It is the two of these things in concert that is provoking a response.

Because why? If they were serious killers, they'd be wearing something else. I don't think there's a whole lot of argument about the complete lack of common sense in disrobing and making a spectacle of one's self on their way to kill a target and wearing material that provides less than no protection against any counter attack that may follow this brazen display. If you're thinking about saying something like "No this is how it's done" think for a minute and ask yourself: would I do that and think it was smart? If the answer is no, the argument is not worth having.

So, they can't be really efficient killer assassin types - therefore, they are just women who have guns and an unusual wardrobe, therefore beating them up and killing them raises some questions. If some crazy hookers assaulted me with a knife I am going to disarm them, sure, but I probably wouldn't go ahead and curb stomp them in slow-motion - the depiction is borderline pornographic in its display of the violence (which is something lots and lots of violent video games do, I'm not saying it's unusual).

Or! They ARE killer assassin types, but apparently they let their pimp dress them that morning and thus the visuals convey a message of yes, women can be killers, but only in a hyper-sexualized context, which is something stronger personality type women tend to object to rather vehemently on the grounds of things that should be equal opportunity (and wardrobe shouldn't be all about tits and ass when one is a serious killer).

There's plenty of aspects of the two issues combining in various combinations that make the video something people are talking about.

As for where I fall out, I don't actually care. I've been gaming for 20 years. I grew up with Chun Li being the ONLY female character I could play in a fighting game and her slits up to her nether region during high kick practice have obviously somewhat numbed me to the "women just don't get to wear armor that doesn't make them look hot" idea that prevails in video games. I'm also pretty used to the worship of violence in violent video games.

I think Jim's point was that, with all the new blood the gaming industry has been trying to bring in, there are a lot more people for whom this is not "normal" and this has not been simply accepted as the way things are, and that is good for a conversation about WHY these things became normalized in the first place, wether or not they should have been normalized, and if we can or should do anything to adjust these norms. It's a conversation that I also think needs to take place for the growth of the medium and I'm interested in what comes out of it. Not relating to this particular game though, because I don't play this series or really anything like it - mostly because of these issues actually, now that I give it some thought.

 

[ex275w]

I think the only things that should be banned is media that intentionally glorify commiting illegal acts in real life, especially acts that deny a person's rights. So I would only count snuff films in my definition. (Mobster movies and stuff like I Spit on Your Grave are still allowed since they serve to show us how horrible some people are)

What about those mobster movies that DON'T serve to show how horrible some people are?

Never seen one of those. Most human beings that see a movie that depicts a "profession" were you are likely to get shot or get arrested isn't exactly a good motivator to becoming a mobster, even if the movie tells you it's the most fun job in the world.

If a mobster movie doesn't deal with murder or the cops in some way, then its probably not a mobster movie or it's a very boring one, which again wouldn't motivate people to go join the mafia.

EDIT: Things are rarely banned in the western occident because artistic mediums know that seeing violent things doesn't motivate you to murder especially if you show the negative consequences of criminal behavior. The chances of someone imitating Kill Bill are slim and even so I doubt someone could murder 80 trained people in a row with a sword.

 

[Bvenged]

"socially richer than before"

What an extraordinary take on controversial situations like this, where many people rush to take arms.

That doesn't look at whether they're right or wrong for boycotting, but that they will be "socially richer", more considerate, more philanthropic (almost), more humanly, more socially understanding then before a controversial event occurs to spark their thoughts into gear.

Very clever sentence, Jim. It's a good angle to see things from, and in a rushed episode too!

 

[Lilani]

Movies and comic book have always overly sexualized women, I don't see what makes Video Games so different, I mean no one screamed at the makers of the Sucker Punch movie for sexualizing their women. Ana they were REAL women and not ones made by ones and zeroes.

One at a time, here:

1. Yes, most comic books do have a very sexualized and male-oriented view of women. And not a lot of women read comic books, do they?

2. Sucker Punch was portraying specific characters with a specific goal in mind. Their sexualization was a visual representation of the male-dominated situation they were in. They were a bunch of women in a mental institution run by men, and likely being sexually abused by them on the side. While they did have power trips in sexy outfits, it also set an overall tone of objectification, reflecting how in the mental hospital they weren't women, they were objects.

See? It wasn't just for the sake of eye candy. It was to set the tone and context of the story.

3. This doesn't work in many video games because a lot of times (especially in MMORPGs) the player is intended to roleplay and reflect their fantasies onto the character. At this point, I want you to imagine a character for yourself. Give him some shape, some outfit, some power or weapon. Maybe some personality and mystique, maybe a tattoo or a scar to really set him apart. Just make him a total badass.

Got that in your head? Good. Now, think of that same character, but imagine him wearing nothing but a golden thong. THAT is the sort of thing female gamers are dealing with. The armor options given in games for male characters are representations of what men want see themselves wearing. The armor options given for female characters are what men want to see women wearing. Personally, the badass in my head doesn't look like this.

Spoiler

Or this.

Spoiler

She looks more like this:

Spoiler

Or this:

Spoiler

Or maybe even this:

Spoiler

If your goal is to portray women as appealing to men, then fine. Sexualize them all you want. But if you want to attract women as well, then your formula for what is attractive and appealing is going to have to change accordingly. Because what works for men does NOT always work for women. THAT is what both the games and comics industries haven't quite figured out yet.

Anyway, on topic: I like what you did here, Jim. You kept to one thing, and it was a really good point. The very fact that we have enough diverse people for people like me to be making tirades like this means that times are a changin', and one day perhaps I will see more and more games and MMOs where I can create the badass in MY head, rather than the female idealized in some teenage boy's head.

 

[ex275w]

Something I should add.
To the whole why are they in the PVC / Leather outfits.
look at the location, its an out of town Motel. Think of it this way, they blast the place, go into the rooms and run out pretending to have heard the explosion. Most media tends to portray the kind of out of town motels and being places hookers often go to.
So while the outfits might at first seem out of place just think how easily they could disappear and lose suspicion by simply playing on their outfits combined with their location.

You are probably thinking harder about the trailer than the people who made the trailer. The easiest reason to think they had those outfits is fanservice.

(I am not meaning to disparage your answer, it's just that the trailer gave no evidence the thought of using the leather clothes as disguises, so it probably never occurred to IO interactive)

 

[ElPatron]

Concerning the "violence against women" side of this debate; how long have women been present in the (American) army now? I can't for the life of me remember if I've ever seen a women portrayed as a regular (not important for the plot) soldier in either MW2

Because women can do many roles in the military, but most countries are still concerned about women in combat roles (dedicated infantry). That explains their absence in BF3 because I think that the closest a woman can get to a combat role is being a field medic.

In Modern Warfare there is a huge focus on special forces, and there are two main factors that justify the non-appearance of women. First, it is very hard to find women able to finish the selection and training. Only a small portion of men is able to do it. There are also issues such as women not being able to control their period during special operations, etc. The second factor is that Special Forces are not regular soldiers. In fact, governments have adopted the policy of not calling them "soldiers" - they are called "operators" in english speaking countries.

The fact that they are not regular soldiers means that they are able to do Black Operations and False-Flag Operations. Any country that happens to capture one of them doesn't have to follow the Geneva convention - which is bad for men, now imagine how bad it would be for women.

I think Jim's point was that, with all the new blood the gaming industry has been trying to bring in, there are a lot more people for whom this is not "normal" and this has not been simply accepted as the way things are, and that is good for a conversation about WHY these things became normalized in the first place

The problem that I find with that logic is that what people have seen in the trailer is all over the TV and movie theaters. It's considered "normal" everywhere.

I have mentioned this so many times I'm getting sick of it, but "Machete" drives my point. It's a very modern example of the "grindhouse" genre. It's pretty stupid, but it's alive.

And I don't remember anyone bitching about the Mexican nurses, Michelle Rodriguez in bikini top and tight pants or Lindsay Lohan dressed as a nun.

But, on a personal level, I can't stand seeing women being brutalized without the brutalizer really struggling. Sure you can say there was a struggle but, the wounds delivered by the nuns were ineffectual whereas Hitman's wounds were all devastating, shown in slow motion.

Here's the problem.

Agent 47 was designed from the ground up to be a killer. His genes are superior and he was trained since a child to kill. He is a fictional creation, so of course he will be able to take on a fight and be able to avoid serious wounds.

It's like complaining that Super Man can survive bullet wounds. It's like complaining that a Tae Kown Do master can kick harder than me.

It's fiction. In Wanted people curve bullets. In Hitman Agent 47 is a highly trained martial artist capable of avoiding wounds.

 

[Darkmantle]

Oh please, men are as overly sexualized as women.

Spoiler: Yes, they are. For dudes.

I'm not interested into going into a massive back-and-forth, so I'll just agree to disagree with you on that point.

I also have to disagree, women like different types of men, saying they like only cute bishies ignores that Fabio or Thor are (or were) popular with women (in part) due to their muscular physique. Other women find nerdy guys like Stephen Merchant to be very attractive.

Um..... So?

I find girls with smaller breasts to be attractive, does that mean that those battle nuns with the huge tits and cleavage weren't sexualized for men because I prefer something different?

 

[Darkmantle]

Wow. You must be new here.

Assuming maturity from an internet forum -- a gaming forum, no less -- is like assuming honesty from a closed session of Congress.

No, I'm not really new here. Just trying to get a point across, and if there's rotten individuals that will nitpick everything, so be it. At least I'm trying to further the discussion. (This is not directed at you, targren, btw)

I know there have been regular female soldiers in most of the Halo games and the extended universe.

I honestly haven't played the Halo series, but are those women just grunts? Like all the other male cannon fodder?

I believe so, grunts as well as a few officers. IIRC of course. It's been a while since I played. Halo gets so much hate for no good reason really :/

EDIT: Sorry for double post

 

[Tono Makt]

ok I totally get the crux of the video, that's not my point, but I honestly don't see the problem with the Hitman trailer?

Is it me?

From the perspective of a Hitman game? Nothing wrong with it. From the perspective of "regular gaming"? Nothing wrong with it.

Personally, I thought the trailer was embarrassing. To me, it panders to immature gamers who want simple T&A with their violence. I don't see much depth to the game, no deeper story really hinted at. At best, it looks like a way to "justify" having a lot of T&A. It doesn't entice me to want to play the game, nor am I all that impressed by the graphics as it appears to be a cut scene, not game play. (if that's game play, I'll be impressed by it.)

I don't see any misogyny in it. I don't see any indication that it thinks women are weaker, or that it glorifies violence against women in particular. On the contrary, in my opinion it portrays women as capable, dangerous and effective killers who are a threat to the main character.

Overall, I don't think it worked. It isn't going to convince gamers who don't care about that kind of game to play that kind of game. If you want another Hitman game, you're going to buy it no matter what. So as an ad, I think it fails.

(end part 1. not sure when part 2 will come up, Mrs. Makt has given Baby Makt to Mr. Makt, which tends to make posting rather difficult)

 

[mercifulwrath]

I know there have been regular female soldiers in most of the Halo games and the extended universe.

I honestly haven't played the Halo series, but are those women just grunts? Like all the other male cannon fodder?

From what I remember, one was a high-ranking member of the ODST, and another was a hot-shot pilot type.

In the ODST game, there was another female character, but I don't think she was the same one that was in the books.

 

[TJC]

I whole-heartedly agree with Jim. New blood is always good and it leads us into the right direction for gaming as a whole. Diversity starts with the audience. The fact that gamers aren't automatically teenage boys whose hormones make them fap at anything that resembles boobies is actually a good one.

The thing is, I'm not sure where the controversy for this trailer is coming from. Is it really the objectification of women? Is it the violence against women? Or is it the religion thing with the nuns?

 

[Phuctifyno]

The overt sexualization problems with the trailer are a red herring. It might even be acceptable if it were relevant to the actual game somehow, like if sexual violence was an important theme. I don't care much for it, but it's fair if we want games to be able to tackle more taboo subjects (y'know, like an artistic medium).

I think people are mostly insulted by it because it's just so (SO) stupid. Neither the S&M, or the nun outfits make any sense, since all they're doing is shooting a rocket, which also doesn't require more than one assassin. And why wouldn't they want to be discreet, considering their profession? Everything about it defies logic, which is the brain-trait these games appeal to more than any other.

Fans of Hitman enjoy the games because of the puzzle-like challenges that require brainwork to overcome properly, and view it as a more "mature" game than its peers because of its intellectual requirements and subdued atmosphere, not because of its sex or violence content. Those elements were only ever present to immerse the player in the "seedy underbelly" of a world that 47 would inhabit.

This trailer, like the stupid movie, completely misses everything that makes the games great. It makes me want to not buy the game, and play Blood Money instead. It'll take impressive gameplay footage to change my mind on that.

 

[PhantomEcho]

What's that you say? Hyper-sexualized female assassins in a game all about assassinating people is a step too far?! Shit! Somebody let James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, and what is essentially EVERY PIECE OF MEDIA EVER TO DEPICT ASSASSINS and tell them they're going to have to do a LOT of RetConning. The sexy female assassin has existed for just as long as the sexy female ANYTHING has existed, and the fact that people are getting up in arms now has nothing to do with a higher degree of social awareness.

It has to do with people having bigger and better means to *****. Honestly. There's -nothing- good about having this conversation. While I agree that it would be GREAT if this was indicative of people becoming more aware of the media they're consuming... it's not. It's being used as an excuse by people with a perceived sense of higher moral authority to condemn others for loving things which they have always loved.

It's not even a new discussion. It's always been happening. The problem is just that, now, more and more people have a bigger and better forum upon which to *****. And I don't really believe that that's a GOOD thing.

I, for one, thoroughly enjoyed watching the trailer. And I don't care if you didn't. I don't care if you hated it because you somehow think it doesn't adequately represent the game (which, last I checked, very few of the promotional advertisements/trailers for Hitman have ever done). I don't care if you hated it because your religious beliefs tell you that some sacred costume was being defiled by leather-clad women armed with military grade firepower. I don't care if you hated it because you think that a bunch of heavily armed women attempting to straight-up murder a man should be treated with the respect and dignity of a proper lady.

In that last case, not only does it not affect my enjoyment of the trailer, but it also makes me believe you're just perpetuating a completely DIFFERENT sexist stereotype which is harmful to the treatment of women as equals. Which makes your opinion on the matter mean EVEN less to me.

So go right ahead and have that discussion. But I, for one, won't assist in perpetuating the insanity that is the 'My opinion somehow entitles me to have people listen to me, no matter how stupid it is' mentality which has been going around lately.

So have fun. Cheers.

 

[mjc0961]

If those woman didn't want to get hit they shouldn't be murderous assassins. no one seems to care they were about to kill somebody right?

Certain debates, like this one are founded in an antiquated double-standard. Violence against women regardless of context automatically means it's wrong. If this "outrage" is allowed to go unchallenged, then we're going to see an even more focused grouped, politically correct, and watered down corporate gaming experience than we have already. Jim's right this wasn't talked about years ago, because years ago, gamers knew that a woman in fighting game was just as deadly as a man in a fighting game, and just as shirtless.

Young gamers today seem to be much more conservative, over-sensitive, and dare I say "wimpy" compared to the days when we had to defend games like Doom from the soccer moms and politicians who were talking like gamers are now!

As for "objecitfication" do I really need to bring up the Twlight double-standards again where young teenage boys were sexualized and minimally dressed to tingle the vaginas of a female audience? If there was a story targeted at teens about a high schooler being fought over by sexy supernatural women for his affections, the fans would be considered immature, boyish, and accussed of objectifying women for their pathetic fantasies there as well.

Spoiler: PIC CLICK

People just love to be outraged and having others hear just how outraged they are

I have to agree with this. So he's beating up some women. Women who were trying to kill him. Fuck that "never hit a woman" shit, self-defense takes priority. And now to sit back and wait to see how long it takes for someone to pull that "but if a woman is hitting you she probably can't hurt you because she's a woman" nonsense to defend that stupid rule.

As for the objectification thing, again, spot on. It's okay for 30 year old women to enjoy sexualized teenage boys that are so young that you'd get arrested for statutory rape if said moms were actually able to do anything with said teenage boys, but heaven forbid adult males enjoy sexulaized adult females (all perfectly legal) because that's wrong. Double standards are bullshit.

If this were a trailer for a Saints Row game, and played up for camp, I'll bet most viewers would have loved it.

A sexy nun gang would have been way cooler than the Luchadores.

And the Deckers. And the Morningstar. ...God damn Saints Row The Third's campaign was disappointing. If it didn't have the awesome free roam bits I would probably hate that game.