Jimquisition: The Positive Side to Punching Nuns
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If I was wearing a pretty unrevealing body-clinging leather suit, and had the choice to shed the impeding to movement garb for the flexible leather suit, or trip over the nun suit 50 times, when trying to take out a highly dangerous assassin, I'd pick the suit. Especially if I'm the one picking the fight.Taunta said:THE FACT THAT THEY'RE WOMEN IS NOT THE POINT
The point is said women are supposedly assassins but instead of wearing practical clothing, wear fetish outfits that serve no purpose other than to titillate an imaginary male audience, who presumably gets a boner from seeing scantily-clad dis-empowered women show off their butts and then get brutally murdered. That is a bad thing.
There is no other reason for them to suddenly tear off their nun habits to reveal clothing like that. That's ludicrous.
If they were men wearing equally fetishistic clothing, then I would have a problem with that too.
No. They are not. Being physically attractive by itself is not objectification. Having a women be physically attractive by itself is not objectification.Robert Ewing said:
If there was equal objectification, more male video game characters would look like this:
and less like this:
As mentioned above, some of your examples are equally for the male self-insert fantasy as they are for the female eye candy fantasy. The "gets the girl" example? That is entirely for the pleasure of the male audience.
Roid raging, macho, overly aggressive, murderous, testosterone poisoned guys like Kratos and Marcus Fenix? Those are not attractive traits to have, sorry to say.
People are arguing that those who made the trailer and anyone who doesn't immediately decry it are "supporting a culture of rape."ex275w said:
Basically, you can either "White Knight" and be told to fuck off by a certain segment of the population, or you can say that "Art is Art, watch it or don't" and be told to fuck off by a certain segment of the population.
I think people don't mind with Max Payne 3 because everyone knows it isn't even trying to pretend it's like the older ones.shogunblade said:
And I don't see why abuse against women in a video game is a bad thing. What counts as abuse anyway? Sure, him beating up an innocent woman would be bad, but not because it's a woman, because it's an innocent person. Is it suddenly worse because the game industry's main demographic is male, and that most of its employees are too? Would we feel just as bad for 47 brutally interrogating some guy for some reason, as we would if they were a woman? Why is it suddenly worse and something to worry about? If Hugo strange abused a woman, so what? He's a villain, he does bad shit. We shouldn't feel bad if 47, someone who assassinates people, felt the need to do so to a woman.
The facepalm at the beginning of my post was gesturing to the stupid idea that violence is ok, but violence agaisnt women isn't. In video games, violence is a basic form of interaction and challenge that any person can innately understand. But some people were like "Oh shit! Won't someone think of the women?!", as if women need to be protected.
It is silly indeed.
Edit: I'm just going to state it here if it wasn't obvious in my first post that I don't mind any other criticism of the trailer, such as random unneeded sexuality. I thought that made it nicely silly, but other opinions are fine by me. I've only had problems with anyone saying it's bad because they're female.
Not yet.ex275w said:
However, as has been the case with Rapelay or various games portraying gay relationships, I don't think that my notion that controversy can - and often will - quickly lead to calls for political action to be taken against them is unfounded. The US generally have a healthy respect for Freedom of Speech, but as such voices seem to grow ever stronger and more numerous, concern is in order.
They certainly should, so long as they respect its right to be shown/broadcast. If we're all on that page, I don't really care what's said on it.
Didn't the "Rape culture" debate came up in this. At least here on The Escapist no one said, "If you like this you are a misogynistic pig." It doesn't make sense for the rape culture thing to be said, no one in the trailer got raped, blamed for getting raped, no one in the trailer said rape victims should get over it.RvLeshrac said:
Agent 47 punching a woman in the trailer if you look it at most in a sexist manner it means men are better than women. It doesn't tell anyone about their opinions on rape.
It's just super low class. It's the Mom's hate Deadspace 2 all over again, it's not the subject matter that bothers me (though in this case it does more on that later) it's the lack of any thought involved. It's a terrible trailer, it's basically look at the pretty guns, look at the pretty fire, look at the pretty women and look at the pretty blood. I shows no gameplay (which makes for a bad trailer instantly) offers nothing to really make you interested but the "Hey look you to fight half clothed fetish nuns as cannon-fodder" thing. Naming it absolution and proceeding to show off hypersexualized nuns being brutally killed is super low, to the point of being crass.
But, on a personal level, I can't stand seeing women being brutalized without the brutalizer really struggling. Sure you can say there was a struggle but, the wounds delivered by the nuns were ineffectual whereas Hitman's wounds were all devastating, shown in slow motion. It showed this big strong man beating these scantily clad women to a pulp, sexualizing their every moment on screen INCLUDING their deaths. Bad girls dying can be done right, but sexualizing them that far and using them as glorified torture porn is not acceptable.
But, on a personal level, I can't stand seeing women being brutalized without the brutalizer really struggling. Sure you can say there was a struggle but, the wounds delivered by the nuns were ineffectual whereas Hitman's wounds were all devastating, shown in slow motion. It showed this big strong man beating these scantily clad women to a pulp, sexualizing their every moment on screen INCLUDING their deaths. Bad girls dying can be done right, but sexualizing them that far and using them as glorified torture porn is not acceptable.
Personally, I find the comic linked to be far more relevant to the Hitman-supporting side of the discussion. She's not drawn a "man," she's drawn a specific woman's ideal man.ex275w said:I would agree that Kratos, the Gears of War dudes, and Chris in Resident Evil 5 were made to fulfill male power fantasies. Yet I still think that most of the time characters designers just end up saying, "Oh we want a tough man in the crew", so they end up making characters liek Sten or Oghren who are most likely to appeal to the male gender.Phasmal said:I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying some women can't find such types attractive (I for one, have a huge thing for nerds), I'm saying the macho types in games and such were not designed for their sexual appeal to the opposite gender. They are designed with dudes in mind.ex275w said:I also have to disagree, women like different types of men, saying they like only cute bishies ignores that Fabio or Thor are (or were) popular with women (in part) due to their muscular physique. Other women find nerdy guys like Stephen Merchant to be very attractive.Phasmal said:Robert Ewing said:
I'm not interested into going into a massive back-and-forth, so I'll just agree to disagree with you on that point.
I still find it funny that no one complains when a character is explicitly made for a female audience, (Thane, Aladdin and My little ponies) men like them more than women.
Still designing characters for one gender I think is dumb, I prefer characters like Dante (DMC) who appeal to power fantasies instead of exclusively female or male power fantasies.
Media displays idealised versions of Perfect People. Moreso for most game characters. Why? Because a game about average people fighting other average people for no particular reason is *actually* a "murder simulator." Instead, we have over-the-top enemies (PMC wearing skin-tight bodysuits underneath Nun disguises) and over-the-top protagonists (A bar-coded cloned super-assassin whose only moral and ethical centre is what the player gives him).
What's truly interesting, and germane to the discussion, is that the people who hold these opinions *DO* want to see images like this banned. They certainly don't (usually) come right out and say it, but that's the overtone - "I don't like this, and therefore no one should ever be allowed to create or display anything like this ever again."
That's exactly the same way the public was sold Prohibition, and the same way the public is sold Book-Banning. If you truly feel that this should be barred, then you have to side with people who want to see Harry Potter, Huckleberry Finn, Moby Dick, Romeo & Juliet, and countless other works banned. They have equally valid arguments, backed up by an equally non-existent body of evidence.
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Imperator_DK said:
It should also be noted that, unlike the US, many other countries already ban works they find "offensive." There is no difference whatsoever between banning a work like "Mein Kampf" in Germany and banning a work like "Huckleberry Finn" in Alabama. Banning works only ensures that they will have a *GREATER* impact on the future, not less, because it indicates that the established order has a problem with the ideas contained in those works.
Germany doesn't end up with Neo-Nazis because they read "Mein Kampf" or played a game with a swastika in. They end up with Neo-Nazis because they've whitewashed over their entire history. The art doesn't cause the criminal activity.
So my question about the game is. Are those women actually nuns (crazy assassin sect nun type people), or assassins that dress as nuns?
Because, to me, both answers are perfect game for Hitman's hairless wrath and fury.
Because, to me, both answers are perfect game for Hitman's hairless wrath and fury.
I think the only things that should be banned is media that intentionally glorify commiting illegal acts in real life, especially acts that deny a person's rights. So I would only count snuff films in my definition. (Mobster movies and stuff like I Spit on Your Grave are still allowed since they serve to show us how horrible some people are)RvLeshrac said:Personally, I find the comic linked to be far more relevant to the Hitman-supporting side of the discussion. She's not drawn a "man," she's drawn a specific woman's ideal man.ex275w said:I would agree that Kratos, the Gears of War dudes, and Chris in Resident Evil 5 were made to fulfill male power fantasies. Yet I still think that most of the time characters designers just end up saying, "Oh we want a tough man in the crew", so they end up making characters liek Sten or Oghren who are most likely to appeal to the male gender.Phasmal said:I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying some women can't find such types attractive (I for one, have a huge thing for nerds), I'm saying the macho types in games and such were not designed for their sexual appeal to the opposite gender. They are designed with dudes in mind.ex275w said:I also have to disagree, women like different types of men, saying they like only cute bishies ignores that Fabio or Thor are (or were) popular with women (in part) due to their muscular physique. Other women find nerdy guys like Stephen Merchant to be very attractive.Phasmal said:Robert Ewing said:
I'm not interested into going into a massive back-and-forth, so I'll just agree to disagree with you on that point.
I still find it funny that no one complains when a character is explicitly made for a female audience, (Thane, Aladdin and My little ponies) men like them more than women.
Still designing characters for one gender I think is dumb, I prefer characters like Dante (DMC) who appeal to power fantasies instead of exclusively female or male power fantasies.
Media displays idealised versions of Perfect People. Moreso for most game characters. Why? Because a game about average people fighting other average people for no particular reason is *actually* a "murder simulator." Instead, we have over-the-top enemies (PMC wearing skin-tight bodysuits underneath Nun disguises) and over-the-top protagonists (A bar-coded cloned super-assassin whose only moral and ethical centre is what the player gives him).
What's truly interesting, and germane to the discussion, is that the people who hold these opinions *DO* want to see images like this banned. They certainly don't (usually) come right out and say it, but that's the overtone - "I don't like this, and therefore no one should ever be allowed to create or display anything like this ever again."
That's exactly the same way the public was sold Prohibition, and the same way the public is sold Book-Banning. If you truly feel that this should be barred, then you have to side with people who want to see Harry Potter, Huckleberry Finn, Moby Dick, Romeo & Juliet, and countless other works banned. They have equally valid arguments, backed up by an equally non-existent body of evidence.
The only people that want to ban stuff are dogmatic people, we should regard their egocentric behavior as silly.
If you're the one picking the fight, presumably you'd choose the uniform that's right for the job. Cover all your vital areas. If he has guns, wear bullet-proof armor.SycoMantis91 said:
Fishnet stockings serve no purpose other than to look sexy. They are too thin to provide any sort of leg warmth, and they can get caught or snagged on things.
High heels are painful to wear, period, even if you're just standing around for more than an hour, and they are not conducive to getting anywhere more quickly than a newborn giraffe. If I know I have to run, the first thing that happens is taking off the heels. Unless you're wearing a wedge heel (the women in the trailer weren't) the heels also sink into the ground if you have to walk across grass or mud. At any times when you're wearing heels, you also run a much greater risk of stepping off the heel, tripping and falling, and spraining or even breaking your ankles. Any woman who wears high heels fully knowing that she's going to do something physically demanding is an idiot. Full stop.
Earrings and necklaces. When seeing two girls about to get into a fight, have you ever heard one of them say "hold my earrings/heels"? I already talked about heels, but any long earrings, necklaces, or other accessories dangling from your body becomes an target for someone else to pull on. They can choke you with said necklace, or they can rip your earrings out. Even the slightest tug on someone's earrings is extremely painful, much more if they're straight-up trying to yank them out.
Women who are well-endowed in the bust area tend to wear push-up bras when they want people to think their breasts look nice, and sports bras when they need to do something physically demanding. Breasts, especially if you're pretty gifted in that area, are a hindrance. They have a tendency to bounce around, slow you down, and they might even get in your face in extreme cases, which is why sports bras were made to keep them down and out of your way. Bustiers are designed to push up, not keep down.
And finally, spandex like that is not made for mobility. It's not the greatest example, but
"Pretty unrevealing"?
The butt shots at the beginning, this boob shot
and I are going to have to disagree with you.
i really don't see the controversy but i can why why it exists
the fact is as jim said the trailer is illogical
they gave no logical context for assassin nuns wearing heels and i am not even sure it a possible to make one out of that situation.
this is the only real issue i have with the trailer
judging this game by the trailer alone it seems they kill all stealth aspects of the hitmen games and opted to be a over the top action game like no more heroes
in other words the trailer is a marketing fail
the fact is as jim said the trailer is illogical
they gave no logical context for assassin nuns wearing heels and i am not even sure it a possible to make one out of that situation.
this is the only real issue i have with the trailer
judging this game by the trailer alone it seems they kill all stealth aspects of the hitmen games and opted to be a over the top action game like no more heroes
in other words the trailer is a marketing fail
They are assassins, presumably a PMC, dressed as Nuns so they can walk through town without suspicion. I get the impression that 47 is south-of-the-border, either in Central or South America.Griffolion said:
(ed: Oh, and the high-heels make absolutely no sense. At least that's one point on which we can agree unreservedly.)
I see, then to me there's no problem really. If Hitman (is that his name?) was punching actual nuns then maybe I'd be like "why's he punching those women who are merely living in a convent, and not doing anything to him?".RvLeshrac said:
I think I ruined it for me, too!Grey Day for Elcia said:
Women aren't portrayed as regular soldiers in part because actual combat roles allowed for women have been greatly limited in a lot of major militaries, and especially the US.freaper said:
I'm not sure where you're going with the rest of what you said, though. that is, I follow your point, but I'm not sure how the rest of what you say actually leads up to it.
It is.Phasmal said:
Or possibly trying to play this up as "violence against women" as the issue in itself is a strawman.Eri said:
Which leads me to....
I'm betting 90% of the people arguing it are aware of that. It's simply more convenient to attack a strawman as opposed to actually addressing the topic at hand. Look at the context of the explanation below the last Critical Miss comment, and how people managed to get to "are you people saying there should never be any violence against women ever?"Taunta said:
...No, but I'm betting they knew that.
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