I'll be honest, my response to that I can't say here because some might find it disturbing so I'm gonna PM it instead.370999 said:
Jimquisition: The Positive Side to Punching Nuns
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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I love jim man lives in mississippi like myself.
Also I didnt know my mom would hate dead space 2!!! HELLS YEAH!!! Ill go buy that today after I sneak some porn from their bedroom.roflmao
Also I didnt know my mom would hate dead space 2!!! HELLS YEAH!!! Ill go buy that today after I sneak some porn from their bedroom.roflmao
Gamers (at least those outside of Japan) have shown themselves time and time again to be massive prudes. That's why no stores have stalked porno games in America since the Atari.370999 said:
Nine times out of ten when an artistic controversy arises regarding videogames it's a sexual controversy.
Meh, I was more angry at this video that it in no way portrayed the way Hitman games were played. It seems foolish to me to get this heavy action-focused trailer for a game that's based almost solely around stealth. I really didn't care too much about the objectified women, mostly due to the fact that battle lingerie nuns are too fucking silly to use as an argument.
I do not see any reason for controversy appearance. One pro assassin kills 7 less pro. Those seven are dressed as nuns with guns. What's the problem? Guys, you dig controversies from such minor issues that I begin to fear for modern society. Because it is getting more and more idiotic.
On the one hand: I can see the cause for upset. Most of the elements are there: sexualized characters, violence against same, misuse of religious imagery, gore, etc. It's basically a recipe for "how to upset people who are inclined to get upset about things that happen to fictional characters." The only thing it's missing is someone underage catching a bullet, too; if they'd had a twelve year old mini-nun holding the rocket launcher it would've been the perfect storm.
On the other hand: considering the above, it seems pretty well-made as cinematic game trailers go. The fight isn't completely one-sided (as is so often the case, with the pretty female puppets just there to get slapped down as so much fodder); the "nuns" lose, yes, but they certainly gave Hitman a few memorable shots on the way out. That over-the-arm disarming kick? Ow. So I don't see much space in there for a misogynistic angle - the gals aren't presented as incompetent* compared with their male opponent, he's just better. I dunno. It's obviously exploitative in nature as there is literally no other reason to have the nuns dressed that way for combat, and there is a definitive logic-fail in their tactical approach, but it doesn't seem like pure cheesecake. For all the fanservice approach to the visuals, it's a legitimately well-executed action scene.
I'd say the complaints are worth noting, but not "correct" in the sense that the trailer should be pulled.
*Okay, possible exception for the rocket-launching black nun. The others are all either a) killed by surprise before they can respond or b) outmatched in a straight fight where they perform reasonably well. That one exception contributes her rocket to the fight and...that's it. She wastes time posing over Hitman when he fell down instead of just freaking shooting him and pays for it, then kills one of her fellow nuns while she's being used as a shield and proceeds to drop her big gun (she really managed to empty the clip in just two bursts?) in favor of a slow-to-draw-while-lying-down pistol without even trying to present a moving target. She seems pretty terrible all around compared to the others.
On the other hand: considering the above, it seems pretty well-made as cinematic game trailers go. The fight isn't completely one-sided (as is so often the case, with the pretty female puppets just there to get slapped down as so much fodder); the "nuns" lose, yes, but they certainly gave Hitman a few memorable shots on the way out. That over-the-arm disarming kick? Ow. So I don't see much space in there for a misogynistic angle - the gals aren't presented as incompetent* compared with their male opponent, he's just better. I dunno. It's obviously exploitative in nature as there is literally no other reason to have the nuns dressed that way for combat, and there is a definitive logic-fail in their tactical approach, but it doesn't seem like pure cheesecake. For all the fanservice approach to the visuals, it's a legitimately well-executed action scene.
I'd say the complaints are worth noting, but not "correct" in the sense that the trailer should be pulled.
*Okay, possible exception for the rocket-launching black nun. The others are all either a) killed by surprise before they can respond or b) outmatched in a straight fight where they perform reasonably well. That one exception contributes her rocket to the fight and...that's it. She wastes time posing over Hitman when he fell down instead of just freaking shooting him and pays for it, then kills one of her fellow nuns while she's being used as a shield and proceeds to drop her big gun (she really managed to empty the clip in just two bursts?) in favor of a slow-to-draw-while-lying-down pistol without even trying to present a moving target. She seems pretty terrible all around compared to the others.
In all fairness, I think that's just the store owners showing themselves to be prudes (WalMart as the leading example that won't even stock some games that others do, for 'objectionable content'). That's not to say that you may not be right, in general, but your conclusion doesn't really follow from your premise.Iron Lightning said:
Wow. You must be new here.freaper said:
Assuming maturity from an internet forum -- a gaming forum, no less -- is like assuming honesty from a closed session of Congress.
OT: The only thing I didn't like a about it -- not that I find it controversial, just personally distasteful. Opinions being subjective and all -- is the blood/gore. Just not my bag.
Otherwise, it would have totally been my kind of camp.
I played every Hitman game and I don't have a problem with the trailer. Hitman was always full of weird shit like that. Remember Contracts and Blood Money? Those games had some sick stuff. Way worse than sexy assassin nuns.DVS BSTrD said:
And it's just a CGI trailer. You're not supposed to draw any conclusions about the gameplay from it.
Oh please, men are as overly sexualized as women. But as men are infact men, they lack the apparatus that women have that make them seem over sexual. I.e Tits, ass, curvy body.
Men are almost always good looking, grizzled badasses, muscle bound, commonly topless, inch perfect characters that always get the girl, and always save the day. If people are getting some sort of trauma from female characters showing their cleavage too often, you clearly don't look at the clearly devastating and crippling mental disorders that the male character brings...
In conclusion, they are sexualized. Both of them. But why care? They pretty much cancel each other out.
Men are almost always good looking, grizzled badasses, muscle bound, commonly topless, inch perfect characters that always get the girl, and always save the day. If people are getting some sort of trauma from female characters showing their cleavage too often, you clearly don't look at the clearly devastating and crippling mental disorders that the male character brings...
In conclusion, they are sexualized. Both of them. But why care? They pretty much cancel each other out.
Kay. Quick pro tip for combat: if somebody's trying to kill you, you have the right to kill them if there's no escape route. It doesn't matter if they're wearing sexy nun outfits, bikinis, mankinis, fursuits, a styrofoam burger mascot costume, a sombrero and nothing else, etc. They were trying to kill you.
Political correctness does not exist to promote tolerance. It exists so that people can avoid either getting offended by or even having to think about issues that bother them. That in no way helps people learn important lessons about sex and gender roles. Also, it's a lot harder to fight when you have an erection. Those women should be applauded for using a little outside-the-box thinking in their combat tactics.
Political correctness does not exist to promote tolerance. It exists so that people can avoid either getting offended by or even having to think about issues that bother them. That in no way helps people learn important lessons about sex and gender roles. Also, it's a lot harder to fight when you have an erection. Those women should be applauded for using a little outside-the-box thinking in their combat tactics.
I havn't played the Hitman games but im definatly interested in the new game. I saw a run through of the first level and thought it looked interesting, not to mention I hear good things about the older ones all the time.
The trailer on the other hand seemed kind of dumb. If it was something like Saints Row then *shrug* thats what happens in Saints Row but I thought Hitman was supposed to be more serious with abit of dark comedy thrown in every now and then. This just struck me as stupid, I don't mind the violence against women (their assassins, comes with the job id suspect), self defence and all that. The fetish gear I do have abit of a problem with due to it being completly pointless, not because their actually wearing it.
Basically what Jim said...
The trailer on the other hand seemed kind of dumb. If it was something like Saints Row then *shrug* thats what happens in Saints Row but I thought Hitman was supposed to be more serious with abit of dark comedy thrown in every now and then. This just struck me as stupid, I don't mind the violence against women (their assassins, comes with the job id suspect), self defence and all that. The fetish gear I do have abit of a problem with due to it being completly pointless, not because their actually wearing it.
Basically what Jim said...
Just throwing in my two cents on T&A in advertising.
I don't get why ANYTHING uses T&A in advertising anymore. We live in an age where high sexuality is a common, mostly-accepted thing. Honest-to-god pornography is EASILY obtainable. In fact, it's PERVASIVE. The Internet, as everyone knows, is mostly porn.
Titillation is pointless when we can get the real thing without any extra effort. If I wanted boobs, I'd go look up boobs. And the boobs I look up wouldn't even be covered. Hell, (at the risk of being yelled at for objectifying women) if I put in a bit of effort, I could get the real thing.
In an age where anyone who WANTS porn or sex can have it and anyone who DON'T is disgusted by it, when we are polarized to the point where those who would have wanted T&A are bored by it, and those who don't want it are willing to boycott games because of it, WHY WOULD ANYONE MARKET A GAME WITH T&A??
I don't get why ANYTHING uses T&A in advertising anymore. We live in an age where high sexuality is a common, mostly-accepted thing. Honest-to-god pornography is EASILY obtainable. In fact, it's PERVASIVE. The Internet, as everyone knows, is mostly porn.
Titillation is pointless when we can get the real thing without any extra effort. If I wanted boobs, I'd go look up boobs. And the boobs I look up wouldn't even be covered. Hell, (at the risk of being yelled at for objectifying women) if I put in a bit of effort, I could get the real thing.
In an age where anyone who WANTS porn or sex can have it and anyone who DON'T is disgusted by it, when we are polarized to the point where those who would have wanted T&A are bored by it, and those who don't want it are willing to boycott games because of it, WHY WOULD ANYONE MARKET A GAME WITH T&A??
I didn't know the controversy was because of the supposed sexism. I thought it was because the trailer didn't fit the franchise, it was too silly for a serious game, and the nuns were terrible at doing their jobs.
I don't find fighting games where you can punch women to be necessarily sexist, since the ladies can fight back and the nuns in the trailer at least fought back.(terribly, but they at least try to)
Still I find characters like Ivy and the nuns as having ridiculous outfits, I don't think the creators are being sexist, instead they are pandering to the teenage audience, looking more immature than sexist.
I don't find fighting games where you can punch women to be necessarily sexist, since the ladies can fight back and the nuns in the trailer at least fought back.(terribly, but they at least try to)
Still I find characters like Ivy and the nuns as having ridiculous outfits, I don't think the creators are being sexist, instead they are pandering to the teenage audience, looking more immature than sexist.
It's not really prudishness that's the problem. It's that violent erotica against women in particular, not men, is a norm in some parts of the media and it both can breed a sense that this thing of men should be normal and all women should be sexualized and brutalized should be a norm for this and then it can make women who've had to deal with men assaulting them sexually very uncomfortable or outright trigger a PTSD attack for some depending on the context.Iron Lightning said:
If this type of erotica was just the character's issue to deal with I don't think as many people would be upset, but since it's a meta erotica and it's being presented in such a way that it implies the player should enjoy this when they might not it's probably more disturbing to most people than it would be otherwise.
For example James Sunderland had some pretty interesting issues with his sexuality represented in the monsters you dealt with in Silent Hill 2 and pretty much no one thinks that's a bad thing, but the monsters were things that represented James' psyche and were things he was expected to like and dislike. You, the player, were never expected to have a meta form of sexuality forced on you and have it be expected for you to accept it as either normal or for you to want it like this trailer seems to be doing.
To put it in simpler terms erotica in video games isn't the problem, expecting the player to be the one with this particular set of erotic fantasies is though especially when the sexualized violence is only happening against women. If it were happening against men too it might be more acceptable, but it's placing one group in a very different position over the others and since that's inherently unequal people will have problems with that too.
More on topic this video was great and I'm happy this kind of discussion is happening more and more.
Edit: I also feel like I should add that I don't think it's realistic to mind violence against women characters when they're being violent, and I actually appreciate women being treated the same as men in this area in media in particular, but they should still be wearing outfits that make sense for them to wear at the time. Sexy stuff for attempted seduction murders would make sense, but there really isn't a need for the women here to look like anything but normal nuns and the normal outfits would be much better to fight in anyway. If you want silliness then apply it to the guys too, come on I'm sure someone would love to run around as a male character in nothing but pink lacy undies.
I don't get it, honestly. If Max Payne 3 looks like its set in the Streets of Rio De Janiero, away from its Noirish roots, why can't Hitman feel like an action movie for one game? They did make a movie that was technically the same thing, was it not?Palademon said:
OT: I think this whole conflict is interesting, but it feels to me, incredibly silly. I think women being hit in the face and whatnot is considerably different to women being abused. If Agent 47 was torturing one of these ladies akin to how Hugo Strange did in his Arkham City trailer, I'd be a little more uncomfortable and this argument would be decided for me a little better.
However, if these women can wield guns, knives and amazing fighting abilities, I don't see how they should be treated any differently towards being taken apart one by one by an assassin.
If the whole religious aspect (Nun outfits) bothers people, Take a good solid look at the films of the 1970s, where exploitation films did much worse with nuns and women seperately than this does. This is pretty tame (which is to say, extremely violent and nose-shatteringly brutal) compared to an entire decade of film.
Altogether, this is a conflict that is silly to be having only because I've seen worse to women in movies from decades before my time, and I can't see why a two minute trailer provokes this much vitriol from anybody.
Well, considering that the next step from "controversy" is usually tiptoeing. or even outright censorship, I really don't think it'll add much to gaming overall.
If you dislike the Hitman trailer, simply don't watch it, and don't buy the product it advertises. But to demand that others who might like it are denied availability of it is the exact opposite of "tolerance". Funnily enough, "live and let live" includes actually letting other people watch/play stuff that offends you to no end.
If you dislike the Hitman trailer, simply don't watch it, and don't buy the product it advertises. But to demand that others who might like it are denied availability of it is the exact opposite of "tolerance". Funnily enough, "live and let live" includes actually letting other people watch/play stuff that offends you to no end.
