Jimquisition: The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade

[deathjavu]

can't as much as look at a commercial with some female objectification(which are by far mostly aimed at women) without getting stressed and wondering who the hell it pisses off now,

This quote right here? Let me tell you how I read it for you so you can see how it's undermining everything else you're saying.

"I can't help but see sexist shit on TV and wonder how it's hurting other people, and that's a bad thing."

It's like someone took a blanket off your head and you want it back.


And isn't pointing at the extreme end of the "other" side and using it to justify your opinion or behavior the exact same 'us vs them, black and white' mentality you're decrying in this very post?

The argument you made in this post isn't even internally consistent.

You're missing a key point; The fact that it points to my present state of mind. Previously, when I saw enormous billboards that depicted two naked women fawning over an energy drink, I used to think that it was crossing the line and that the creators were blatantly provoking peoples attention with nude bodies to sell a softdrink without regard for people that it might actually hurt. Now, I'm worried who'll start screaming bloody murder and how it'll stress me, personally.

Do you see the problem with this?

I didn't suddenly begin noticing sexism, I didn't suddenly realise that there's an unhealthy standard set for women to look a certain way or gain some revering respect for women. The blanket isn't taken off my head, it's been violently ripped off of my body while I was sleeping soundly at night with the thought police standing next to me with handcuffs, ready to take me in for questioning. This is not a positive result, no matter how you spin it. If anything, it's made me loathe people for minding any of it.

I will admit that I should've made that more clear, since it's obviously already mislead one person of my character.
I would ask you to reconsider my post with this addendum and respect that you don't know me and might've jumped to conclusions.

Well,

while I was sleeping soundly at night

and

it was crossing the line and that the creators were blatantly provoking peoples attention with nude bodies to sell a softdrink without regard for people that it might actually hurt

don't quite match up imo, but if the rest is really an analogous situation, then yes, that's fucked up.

I just haven't seen these rabid SJW thought police, anywhere, ever. I have seen horrible sexist shit though. And people desperately trying to cover for the threat makers. And people claiming persecution in response to literally any discussion about sexism, regardless of content or message.

I don't particularly think claiming one side is persecuting people (and why is it always the 'feminists' that are persecuting people? That's friggen weird when you think about what the 'other' side is doing) is really doing anything but further polarizing the discussion though. Why not talk about the people that are actually present, and/or the subject of the video?

But in your specific case, yes. I don't have enough information to go on. I apologize.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Thank God for you, Jim.

This behavior is very prevalent, and very annoying.

It's sad that even after watching a whole video[sub](or maybe not)[/sub] asking people not to pull this crap, we still have people going on the first comment page, and doing it.

In the end though, you're right Jim. They try to cover their own asses, and just end up looking like bigger asses. ;p

Have a great holiday!

 

[Vegosiux]

Slacktivism is quite a thing these days I see. Feeling like you've done something without actually doing anything. And no, I don't mean Jim on this one.

As Jim says, they attempt to distance themselves out of concern for themselves.

That's quite a selfish thing to do. Now, on the other hand, those who "fight the good fight" so that they can feel good about themselves...

Why are you looking at me like that? Once we start guessing at motives, all bets are off. Everyone's a selfish asshat who's mostly concerned with themselves. I mean, of course those people that see things differently than me can't be seeing things differently in good faith, they must have malicious intentions, or are just exceedingly selfish at best. I must expose their true colors, which I know more of than they themselves do!

Quoting myself from another thread...

"Don't feed the trolls" isn't apologism, it's saying "Those assholes do not deserve anyone's time of day. We should lock them up in their circle-jerk echo chamber and throw away the key, and nobody should ever consider them relevant, because they are not, they're insignificant twats who don't deserve to affect society." They do not deserve to be heard, so we should refuse to hear them. They do not deserve to be validated, so we should refuse to validate them. They do not deserve anyone giving a thought to what they say, so we should refuse to even consider their words.

Well, least that's the way I see it.

 

[ThreeKneeNick]

Whole thing seems to me like it's overblown by ill fated efforts to solve it. Someone is being a moron somewhere on the internet, game journalist tells me i share collective responsibility, i get defensive, game journalist has his proof that i'm an awful person. Sorry, not playing this game.

 

[IndomitableSam]

Some people here are arguing the wrong point. Harassment happens. We all know it. And developers, men and women, deal with it. That's not the problem. Telling people they suck or their game sucks is fine. Calling them losers and pathetic is normal. They call them on bad writing, coding, whatever done in the past. They go over job history and affiliations and education. They harass people for all of those. Fine, that's the world we live in. Death threats and such happen, and when they do, they become a big thing. To men and women.

It becomes a problem when it's a woman, because the first thing to be attacked is not their skill, credentials, history or attitude. It's her sex.

The comments you see when it's a woman (or any LGBTQ, and even some men) are "you should be raped" "you're fat and ugly" "no one could ever love you" "girls have no place here". It's not about her education or her work history or her portfolio. It's not about the design and skill and long hours put into a game. It's not about the bugs or mis-steps or story choices. It's about her and her body and her personal life and everything that is out of bounds.

THAT is what the problem is.

And the problem with the bystanders is they just say "well, everyone gets harassed" as I explained in my first paragraph. They don't start replying to the trolls saying "That is not okay. If you want to criticize something, criticize the game, you do not tell people they should be molested."

"That's not okay". That's all that needs to be said whenever the harassment turns personal. If it's not about the work and is about them... it's not okay.

And what a lot of the people in this thread are saying? ... That's not okay.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Great cause, but this video came off as more than a bit naive.

1) I absolutely despise this assumption that any time someone is a victim, it instantly means that not only are they a perfect saint who has done nothing wrong, but that the [i/]only[/i] correct course of action is to shout support at them. Apparently even ignoring them makes you terrible and childish. The fact is, issues are more complicated than that. When someone walks into a burning building, you don't blame the fire. There's no point. Sure, maybe you should support the victim and help dress their wounds. That's fine I have no problem with that. But it's perfectly reasonable that they may have been stupid for doing it.
It's this absolutely terrible point of view that the [i/]only two types of people in existence[/i] are the total supporters who are great people and the horrible, awful trolls who do nothing but blame victims.
Analyzing the issue is an important part of [i/]any[/i] incident no matter how black and white it appears to be.

2) You seem to think something can be done about 4chan and that ilk. There isn't. Short of shutting down sites because you don't like them and censoring the internet to catch a few abusers, that facet of gaming will always exist.
That community is going to keep doing what they're doing no matter what. Ignoring it is the only way to deal with it. It's the classic old saying of "Don't feed the trolls". These people feed on criticism and hate. They love every second of it because they get a reaction. It really is like a small child throwing a tantrum. They only do it because they get attention and make people upset.
Yes, it's horrible that this woman was talked to in this way. It's bad, it's the fault of the forums and it shouldn't have happened. However, it's stupid to not take it as a cautionary tale to other devs with the message of "Don't fuck with the bee's nest no matter how many people link you to that bee's nest." Learning from something is not sexist, wrong OR victim blaming. Its the right thing to do.

3) I don't understand this concept that anyone and everyone involved in gaming culture is somehow the responsibility of everyone else. There's websites dedicated to Mein Kampf, but you don't see the literature world giving them attention and worrying about it because they give books a bad name.
This community exists and distancing ourselves from it is the only course of action. If anyone has a better suggestion, please present it, but I'm not seeing how giving it attention is helping in any way.

 

[weirdee]

I would have brought up Zelda CDi, but I think that probably would have been too harsh

 

[Machine Man 1992]

See, but as a male gamer who does NOT harass women online, I'm also tired of getting blamed for doing it. I don't control other people's actions, by "contributing to the online ecosystem" doesn't make it my fault when stupid people do stupid things.

I get harassed online too, like for example daring to suggest that a Dynasty Warriors Zelda mashup is a horrible idea, but you don't see a news story about that every time it happens.

Because as a male gamer, you're just expected to suck it up. And you do. We do.

But the minute that a woman gets mean things said to her, suddenly it's a big deal. For all the flak people like Anita Sarkeesian give Damsels In Distress, she sure profited off being one.

And this Depression Quest chick is going to be rolling in Benjamins from this.

I'll close with saying, "what is more sexist, the trolls who exploit chinks in the armor, or the press who focus on her being a woman who was insulted online?"

(Fer Christ's sake, if you're getting threatening phone calls, call the damn cops.)

Yes and that does suck. It's why I report someone who ever acts like an asshole to me online. The men don't, you know, get harassed for being men. It's kind of a different scenario.

Rolling in Benjamins? The game is going to be free...so I doubt it.

Um...pretty sure it's the harassment bit. I'm still failing to see the downside to people exposing harassment online.

Well if it's free, nevermind then.

Women get harassed for being women because it's a sore spot. It generates maximum lulz. That's what trolls care about; a reaction.

 

[Kenjitsuka]

Input error:
You said; "Now shut up!" then, "Thank God for me!"

Unless I thank God for you in my mind....
*Phew, head explosion averted*

 

[deathbydeath]

"There is a problem in the Gaming World."

No, there isn't. This is a problem with the Internet World. Penny Arcade [http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19] covered this phenomenon in 2004 and Allosaurus Rex [www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oL5yoyBPVo] gave this the video treatment.

Saying that people who partake in vidya game are toxic and hazardous to minorities is like saying that people who partake in vidya games are sociopathic killers. You want to make video games an acceptable and safe hobby for minorities? That's lovely and I do too. The path to doing this, though, is to acknowledge the truth and to not spread damn lies.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

I chose not to snip and Post the Comment, but somebody mentioned White-Knighting for these individuals who are harrassed. I will stand up and Whit Knight all Damned year if I could. I f I knew a way to re-direct some of this crap to me, somebody who can and will fight back I would.

As much as we all enjoy having Cool Login names and nifty avatar Piuctures IE a VF1 Valkyrie, I wonder how vocal the Trolls would be if We could only Post Via facebook or some similar network where Our Real names and a picture are visible?

I would love to be able to post to her Twitter ( I am not on Twitter, it is meaningless to me) that I wish for her to stand by and be Resolute, and to Press charges against the telephone harrassers. I would Also like to be able to say "My name is Shamus Moloney, I live in FSJ, British Columbia, Canada, and if you would like to commit Verbal assault or harrassment of somebody based on their Gender, sexuality, Race or belifs etc. etc. You may do so: After you face me in a bout of Fisticuffs. Because if you aren't willing to Fight a six fot tall, 200lb Construction worker over it, your opinion is invalid. And yes, If some much larger Neo-Nazi analougue shows up at my door, I will fight for the cause.

I think iI will try to send her some positive message via Facebook, or maybe JIM you could foreward this to her.
In my own personal experience, bullies don't like to harass people when there is a clear support network for them.

This shit really bothers me and brings me back to High School where I had to fight people quite frequently as a product of moving a lot and always being the "Friendless New Kid" or in other terms: EASY TARGET Thankfull the Character of Andrew "Ender" Wiggin inspired me to stand up and fight back, hard enough to win at ayoung age.

I don't know how I can fix it all, but I can and WILL fix teh wagon of the Trolls I encounter. I am also not afraid to use my name Doing so. I would love some feedback on wether we Escapist can create some New Group or network to help with such If Phoenix Jones can do it on the street, with his fists, I think we can do it On the Net. I will happily be the fist, or take the punhches.

What do we think? ((and yes I'm aware that I frequently mistype "the" , I am in a hurry, on lunch break. make fun of me aal you want))

 

[Erttheking]

[Snip

Somehow I feel like this goes beyond mere trolls trying to get a reaction out of people. Actually that raises a point. A troll is someone who deliberately makes arguments and points with the intention of pissing people off. How come we assume that every time someone makes a hate filled comment on the internet, they're just a troll and don't really mean it?

 

[Kuro Serpentina]

I liked Link's Crossbow Training

 

[Something Amyss]

No. Social justice warrior is a term coined by the people to which it is applied.

The point being that it's used in the same context as "white knight" and "mangina" in the gaming community, regardless of its origins. It becomes difficult to distinguish any legit complaint from the usual "you're not a screaming misognynist, so you must be one of those (whatever)s!"

Why are you looking at me like that? Once we start guessing at motives, all bets are off.

Your slippery slope is showing. However, since our motives are already impugned (see above), I'm not particularly seeing it as an eventuality. I'm seeing it as a reality. I also think it's a touch of false equivalence, but whatever.

Everyone's a selfish asshat who's mostly concerned with themselves.

Especially people who go against their own self interests.

"Don't feed the trolls" isn't apologism, it's saying "Those assholes do not deserve anyone's time of day. We should lock them up in their circle-jerk echo chamber and throw away the key, and nobody should ever consider them relevant, because they are not, they're insignificant twats who don't deserve to affect society."

Except you're not isolating them, you're providing tacit consent for their actions while they continue them. You can't lock them away, especially on the internet, without a rather severe overhaul in the way things are done. They will be heard, and you're not stopping them by "not feeding them."

This all looks like nothing more than rationalisation. We've gotten where we are through the "don't feed the trolls" mentality, and that's the problem in the first place.

 

[DrOswald]

Some people here are arguing the wrong point. Harassment happens. We all know it. And developers, men and women, deal with it. That's not the problem. Telling people they suck or their game sucks is fine. Calling them losers and pathetic is normal. They call them on bad writing, coding, whatever done in the past. They go over job history and affiliations and education. They harass people for all of those. Fine, that's the world we live in. Death threats and such happen, and when they do, they become a big thing. To men and women.

It becomes a problem when it's a woman, because the first thing to be attacked is not their skill, credentials, history or attitude. It's her sex.

The comments you see when it's a woman (or any LGBTQ, and even some men) are "you should be raped" "you're fat and ugly" "no one could ever love you" "girls have no place here". It's not about her education or her work history or her portfolio. It's not about the design and skill and long hours put into a game. It's not about the bugs or mis-steps or story choices. It's about her and her body and her personal life and everything that is out of bounds.

THAT is what the problem is.

And the problem with the bystanders is they just say "well, everyone gets harassed" as I explained in my first paragraph. They don't start replying to the trolls saying "That is not okay. If you want to criticize something, criticize the game, you do not tell people they should be molested."

"That's not okay". That's all that needs to be said whenever the harassment turns personal. If it's not about the work and is about them... it's not okay.

And what a lot of the people in this thread are saying? ... That's not okay.

I have one problem with what you are saying: Trolls are playing a different game. They do not post to criticize or to express a point. It is only to get other people mad. When we respond to trolls, especially if it is to tell them that what they are doing is not ok, they win their sick little game. This is why they go for the personal and especially sexist attacks. Because they know that these things will make us upset. By responding we encourage this sort of behavior in trolls because if we respond they know that they have hit a nerve. Even if we are perfectly calm they know that they got to us because we cared enough to respond. They know that if they keep on pushing that button eventually it will result in a shit storm.

This is why everyone knows you don't feed the trolls. It is literally the only way to fight them. Completely and totally ignoring them is the only thing that works. It certainly isn't perfect, but it is all we have. Unless we are willing to embrace censorship of the internet.

The vast majority of the people making these horribly offensive sexist/racist/whatever comments are trolls. This is why people say "everyone gets harassed." Because it is true and the harassing trolls always go for the lowest, sickest blow the can because that is what gets the reaction. And right now the lowest blow they have is attacking a woman for her gender. They know it will get a reaction.

Responding, even to calmly tell them that what they are doing is unacceptable, encourages the trolls.

Unless, of course, you have had great success before in chastising trolls into silence. If so, please share your secret.

 

[weirdee]

I liked Link's Crossbow Training

BLASPHEME-nah just kidding

anyway, quick note: folks who keep saying "but that's not MEEEEE" okay how about just, assuming, it's not you, and then not making a huge deal out of it

however, if your first impulse is to jump on the board to state that it's not you, then YES IT REALLY IS YOU because the entire video was about people who do that, instead of EITHER supporting OR not covering your ass reflexively

read that correctly? EITHER, OR.

it's not about you

 

[Epic_Bubble]

what is our generation ? our internet generation? a bunch of cowards who spew vile hate thats defended by other cowards screaming consequence free speech !

Sadly yes.

People think the internet is their right to freedom of speech.
Those people forget they have a right to be held accountable for what they say.

Freedom of speech may allow you to say what you want. Your still responsible for what you say and you will be judged.

 

[Eamar]

The vast majority of the people making these horribly offensive sexist/racist/whatever comments are trolls.

It's nice to think that, and yes, the internet is full of trolls. Unfortunately, by writing off everyone who says something disgusting as a "troll" is a very good way of conveniently brushing the unsavoury characters who actually do hold these beliefs under the rug. It's basically an extension of what Jim was saying, a way of denying their legitimacy and therefore making us all feel better about ourselves and our communities. Trust me, the are PLENTY of people who actually are that hateful and ignorant.

Unless, of course, you have had great success before in chastising trolls into silence. If so, please share your secret.

I have actually talked trolls down a few times (on feminist forums, none less. Do I win the internet yet? ) I try to engage them very calmly and logically. When they realise they're not going to get an emotional reaction, are just looking increasingly ignorant in the face of mounting counter-arguments, and are coming across as a complete tool, sometimes, just sometimes they slink away with their tail between their legs and never darken that site/forum again.

That said, I wasn't born yesterday and completely accept that this is never going to work in the majority of cases.

 

[Fiairflair]

I agree that it is a good thing to speak up when someone is being victimised or harassed. It is important to confront the attacker with the truth of their actions, to say what they are and what they are doing, and to say that it needs to stop. I don't, however, think it is appropriate to criticise people for choosing not to be involved in the discussion. We do not carry some assumed responsibility to act contrary to our own interest and it is really important that people, depending on what they are going through at this point in their lives, remember it.

I love having a voice and using it to decry bigotry and bullying wherever I see it. I want to stand for something. But if I choose to stop tomorrow I am not at fault. It is easy to criticise others for what we perceive to be their faults, but we are wrong to assume that every silent observer agrees with the ugly views of the attackers.