Jimquisition: The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade

[The Material Sheep]

I don't really know what to do as an individual to stop those sort of comments, or to at least let the people making those comments know it's not okay.

Say so. Humans are social animals, and we fear ostracism, being ejected from the pack. Express your disapproval, and it will be a pressure--perhaps a small one, perhaps larger--on that fear, that desire to conform to the rest of the social unit.

With how ridiculously hyper connected extreme minority views can be via the internet, its nearly impossible to ostracize a person or group of people. Making someone not welcome here, doesn't make them not welcome on getherinthekitchen.com. Everyone on that website/forum would just be yelling, orginizing and spewing vile crap at people they don't like. You can't control what they do, as they have all the reinforcement they need from people that all share their views on things. All you can do is ignore them, and when they get too out of line ban them from the spaces they don't control. However, you won't make these people change as the internet is very good at entrenching minority or extremist views with echo chambers.

 

[Ipsen]

She has fault in this, end of. Doesn't mean she should be drug out of the street and beaten and/or sexualy assulted for it (or be threatened as much). Just that this is very much a two way street that we're dealing with.

When the cars drive down each path matters here too.

Thinking back, it was hard to discern how long it took between the time I heard Anita was a feminist and when I heard of the hateful comments against her. Or when I heard one before the other. The way this has been presented too, I think many others are in a similar situation; her treatment by some of her dissenters goes hand in hand with her message. For better or worse, many people's perception of her is colored by the theats issued.

See, I never found most who continue to rail against Anita to be too credible, because they choose to bring up other issues at the same time people are having problems with her being threatened with rape, harm, etc. The lack of respect for the issue at hand (and thus translates into perhaps a lack of tact) paints you as masking another view.

Just choose another time,(if we ever forget the vitriol people have spewed at her) if you feel you must discretit Anita. Or just let people see for themselves; random forumites tend not to be convincing, merely by standing on their soapboxes.

 

[wulf3n]

Wow Jim a pretty bigoted view that I wasn't expecting.

Are to we start blaming all members of certain religions because a few extreme sects commit horrific acts?
Hell why don't we blame all religions for the actions of a few?

Let's not forget social activists, they have some pretty extreme sub-groups should we now associate/treat them all as one group?

These harassers may be gamers, but being gamers is not what is making them harrass.

This is what pisses people off when it is said "Gamers harrass dev for being a girl" because it implies all gamers [at least all male gamers]. It's the same bullshit Fox news spews.

And just because people respond, "This isn't an issue with Gamers" doesn't not mean they're saying "This isn't an issue" it simply means they are sick and tired of being lumped together with these ass holes and it goes without saying that this shit is bad and shouldn't be tolerated, so they don't bother saying it.

 

[TreuloseTomate]

A community is judged by the worst shit it tolerates, and as such the gamer community deserves all the scorn it gets.

Well that's just great, because every community got assholes. How is humanity doing lately? Well, there are still cannibals, slavers and rapists in the world, and I'm just sitting here in front of my computer doing nothing. Guilty!

If 2013 has shown me one thing it's this: If there is a thing that could be called "gamer community", I don't feel like I'm part of it. I don't want to be part of it because of insecure teenage boys who find joy in harassing female developers, and because of people like you. What an obnoxious "community" this has become.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

[Snip

Somehow I feel like this goes beyond mere trolls trying to get a reaction out of people. Actually that raises a point. A troll is someone who deliberately makes arguments and points with the intention of pissing people off. How come we assume that every time someone makes a hate filled comment on the internet, they're just a troll and don't really mean it?

I think it depends on tone. Trolls like to present an exaggerated persona to try and push as many buttons as possible. Someone who displays true hate either A) would not have posted at all or B) snipe at it from the sides, with other like minded people.. Trolls like to wade into the center so everybody can see them. There's a lot of overlap, but most people can pick out someone looking to get noticed, and someone who legitimately wants to beat someone to death with a shovel.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

I personally think this was a false flag operation run by the feminists (they have done it before) to continue to draw attention to their cause.

Well, aren't you a pleasant little individual. I suppose you have hard evidence about this grand feminist plot and you aren't just trying to wind a conspiracy so that Zoe Quinn is the obvious bad guy.

And this Depression Quest chick is going to be rolling in Benjamins from this.

Except it's a free game. Please try again (and harder next time) to wind this into TEH EBUL FEMENAZI CUNSPEERASEE.

Only in this case, I legitimately didn't know that Depression Quest was free.

So please, try harder to accuse people of conspiracy.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

what is our generation ? our internet generation? a bunch of cowards who spew vile hate thats defended by other cowards screaming consequence free speech !

Sadly yes.

People think the internet is their right to freedom of speech.
Those people forget they have a right to be held accountable for what they say.

Freedom of speech may allow you to say what you want. Your still responsible for what you say and you will be judged.

Held accountable, yes.

Regulated, fuck no.

Being held accountable to your actions is not the same as making them stop.

 

[Do4600]

Waaaiit a minute.

Jim, I think you're going a little far by suggesting a concept of collective responsibility. Just because something happens on the internet doesn't make me responsible for it.

While you might be right to criticize an individual's viewpoint you can't state that: "All internet gamers are responsible for the treatment of Zoe Quinn because we have this community thing going." It doesn't work like that. Not all gamers are "painted with the same brush" Being in a community does not follow that one agrees with the actions of other members in that community, it also doesn't follow that one member is responsible for the actions of the other members. If you read and enjoy poetry and somebody else who reads and enjoys poetry in your poetry group states that, "Emily Dickinson was an asshole." you are not responsible for that statement(even if it is hilariously arbitrary) nor is it to be associated with you, to associate that statement with one who didn't make it is simply fallacious.

To be a gamer doesn't mean that you have the same beliefs as everybody else who is a gamer, there is no charter of beliefs we all agree to and sign on, we don't agree to take responsibility for other's actions who share the same hobby. To say we all have responsibility for these actions is only using the same sort of reasoning that media organizations use to say that every gamer is a violent ticking time bomb because one gamer was a violent ticking time bomb, and that reasoning is just plain incorrect.

Some S is P does not equal All S is P

 

[Vegosiux]

you know, it seems to me that alot of people are missing the point of this video, so let me try to help make it more clear with an analogy

imagine your in high school. your walking down a hallway when you see a group of kids bullying another kid who just recently came out of the closet. they are bullying for being gay. it's mostly verbal bullying (insults, name calling and the like), but you do hear one or two threats of violence that you aren't sure whether the bullies are serious about.
Do you:
A) go tell a teacher or other staff member whats happening, or even try to bring them to where the bullying is happening so they can see for themselves
B) go stand up to the bullies, and maybe even try to get the victim away from them
C) walk by the whole thing because its not your problem, and never think about it again
D) walk by, and then when you overhear the victim talking to his friends about what happened, tell the victim "well what did you expect for being open about your sexuality"

if you would pick A or B, then you aren't the people Jim's talking about. Your good people who probably do stand up for people who are being bullied whether online or offline. Jim is not telling you to go out and setup some sort of internet vigilante system, all he wants is for more people to act like you guys, and stand up against bullies when you see it happening in the community you are a part of.

if you would pick C or D, then you are doing nothing but being complacent while people are bullied and harassed for the pettiest of reasons, making it appear that this abuse is acceptable behavior. your deserve the scorn Jim gives you in this video

How about

E) Talk to the guy and ask him if he wants to take some self-defense lessons with you (because you could use some yourself, and having some company might be nice), show that his sexuality isn't a problem despite what those assholes acted like and arrange for him letting you copy his homework on Mondays and Tuesdays while you let him copy yours on Wednesdays and Thursdays. That is, in addition to A).

Basically, leaving the bullies out of the equation completely, while giving full support to the guy being bullied?

 

[The Material Sheep]

I due find the "with us or against us" argument to be a bit troubling. Historically unless you start backing that up with actual threats, and force I don't think you'll find many receptive to that moral strong arming.

This wasn't an argument trying to persuade people to be more active in their opposition to hateful elements of the gaming community. This was either a very mean spirited and spiteful message to all people who don't want to be apart of the issue, or it was poorly presented.

Believing that you can't change the minds of dogmatic anti socials, from entrenched areas of the internet, is not cowardice. It's just saving yourself time and frustration.

 

[wulf3n]

Believing that you can't change the minds of dogmatic anti socials from entrenched areas of the internet is not cowardice it's just saving yourself time and frustration.

Especially when you've tried in pretty much every situation before to not only voice your opposition but move the discussion towards how to fix the issue, just to have everyone ignore it, being complacent in their complaining as if that's enough.

 

[Kelly Attwell]

Thank God for you Jim Sterling. While people are so busy covering their own backs, they ignore the reason they have to cover it in the first place. They ignore the victim and that's not okay. Women who want to get involved in the game industry shouldn't have to first consider whether or not they would be able to handle being abused, disregarded and threatened because they were born female. I am not saying that people should take it on themselves to police the Internet, however, the gaming community needs to find a way to say that this behaviour is not okay. Bullying is toxic and it isolates the victim, so rather than 'feed the trolls', feed the victim support. Show them that it is only the minority who is acting badly and that the majority accept women in the gaming community.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Believing that you can't change the minds of dogmatic anti socials from entrenched areas of the internet is not cowardice it's just saving yourself time and frustration.

Especially when you've tried in pretty much every situation before to not only voice your opposition but move the discussion towards how to fix the issue, just to have everyone ignore it, being complacent in their complaining as if that's enough.

You can't stop it, and you can't move the discussion forward with people like this. While in the past Crazy A, and Crazy B might have been disconnected by 1000 miles, now a days Crazy A and Crazy B meat up with the rest of the alphabet of crazies on Crazyshit.org. It's so easy to form a community around crazy or stupid ideas these days, that social shaming and ostracizing doesn't work to the degree that most people want.

All you can do is keep the larger communities clean of it, and for the most part that happens. However, because of the nature of the internet and how its so easy to comment on things these days in a public forum, it doesn't take much for the crazies to leave their section of the internet to try and be heard from time to time. Ignoring them is about all you can do.

 

[Ishal]

can't as much as look at a commercial with some female objectification(which are by far mostly aimed at women) without getting stressed and wondering who the hell it pisses off now,

This quote right here? Let me tell you how I read it for you so you can see how it's undermining everything else you're saying.

"I can't help but see sexist shit on TV and wonder how it's hurting other people, and that's a bad thing."

It's like someone took a blanket off your head and you want it back.


And isn't pointing at the extreme end of the "other" side and using it to justify your opinion or behavior the exact same 'us vs them, black and white' mentality you're decrying in this very post?

The argument you made in this post isn't even internally consistent.

You're missing a key point; The fact that it points to my present state of mind. Previously, when I saw enormous billboards that depicted two naked women fawning over an energy drink, I used to think that it was crossing the line and that the creators were blatantly provoking peoples attention with nude bodies to sell a softdrink without regard for people that it might actually hurt. Now, I'm worried who'll start screaming bloody murder and how it'll stress me, personally.

Do you see the problem with this?

I didn't suddenly begin noticing sexism, I didn't suddenly realise that there's an unhealthy standard set for women to look a certain way or gain some revering respect for women. The blanket isn't taken off my head, it's been violently ripped off of my body while I was sleeping soundly at night with the thought police standing next to me with handcuffs, ready to take me in for questioning. This is not a positive result, no matter how you spin it. If anything, it's made me loathe people for minding any of it.

I will admit that I should've made that more clear, since it's obviously already mislead one person of my character.
I would ask you to reconsider my post with this addendum and respect that you don't know me and might've jumped to conclusions.

While I can't agree with the points in your post. I want to make it clear that I understand them. So I want to make it clear that I'm not attacking you over these issues.

Recently, I became exposed to the whole sphere of feminist tumblr bloggers and "social justice warriors" They were attacking bronies and calling them sexist and a whole bunch of other stuff. I wouldn't call myself a brony, really. Even though I like the show. But I read up on few conversations happening and it was deplorable. So much hate, from both sides. Don't get me wrong, I think they have a reason to be angry. This problem Jim's talking about is a big one and it needs to be addressed. But the anger and hostility is jaw dropping. Playing devil's advocate, that bit about it influencing your mental state? I already know what'd they'd say, the tumblr users. "Oh piss off you privileged piece of crap. We're so sorry that it bothers you, meanwhile we'll be over here along with others actually]/i] suffering these problems."

Now, that statement does have merit. But it's going about it the complete wrong way. Blaming others for not knowing or not being able to empathize, then forcing feelings or guilt on people just isn't going to work. It's turned you off, and it's turned me off. I want to help these people. I don't like the current climate of gaming that this kind of stuff seems to go on all the time. (I say seems because of the journalism bit you addressed earlier in the thread.) But I don't want to talk to these people. They're some of the angriest people I've ever seen in my life. Sarcastic, biting, snarky, and just all around nasty. I just don't want to interact with them ever. It's not winning them any favors or support. Does any of that make sense?

 

[Cid Silverwing]

We can talk about it until we are blue in the face, its not going to change the nature of the internet.

Sorry Jim, but we do need to talk about it, ever aspect, I personally think this was a false flag operation run by the feminists (they have done it before) to continue to draw attention to their cause.

And that's the part that pisses me off the most. It's impossible to know if any such "victims" are legit anymore, no thanks to fucktarded feminazis ruining it for the legit ones.

I'm not even sorry when I say it's wrong, Jimmy Sterling, to shame those who distance themselves from this as "cowards" etc, because we don't know all the details first. A thorough investigation will be needed before fingers can be pointed. Every time.

That said, fuck 4chan and their ilk either way because they contribute nothing useful to society.

 

[spartenX]

you know, it seems to me that alot of people are missing the point of this video, so let me try to help make it more clear with an analogy

imagine your in high school. your walking down a hallway when you see a group of kids bullying another kid who just recently came out of the closet. they are bullying for being gay. it's mostly verbal bullying (insults, name calling and the like), but you do hear one or two threats of violence that you aren't sure whether the bullies are serious about.
Do you:
A) go tell a teacher or other staff member whats happening, or even try to bring them to where the bullying is happening so they can see for themselves
B) go stand up to the bullies, and maybe even try to get the victim away from them
C) walk by the whole thing because its not your problem, and never think about it again
D) walk by, and then when you overhear the victim talking to his friends about what happened, tell the victim "well what did you expect for being open about your sexuality"

if you would pick A or B, then you aren't the people Jim's talking about. Your good people who probably do stand up for people who are being bullied whether online or offline. Jim is not telling you to go out and setup some sort of internet vigilante system, all he wants is for more people to act like you guys, and stand up against bullies when you see it happening in the community you are a part of.

if you would pick C or D, then you are doing nothing but being complacent while people are bullied and harassed for the pettiest of reasons, making it appear that this abuse is acceptable behavior. your deserve the scorn Jim gives you in this video

How about

E) Talk to the guy and ask him if he wants to take some self-defense lessons with you (because you could use some yourself, and having some company might be nice), show that his sexuality isn't a problem despite what those assholes acted like and arrange for him letting you copy his homework on Mondays and Tuesdays while you let him copy yours on Wednesdays and Thursdays. That is, in addition to A).

Basically, leaving the bullies out of the equation completely, while giving full support to the guy being bullied?

Actually that is a pretty good choice.

 

[JimB]

With how ridiculously hyper-connected extreme minority views can be via the internet, it's nearly impossible to ostracize a person or group of people.

It's pretty much impossible to start an avalanche with a pebble, too. Get a lot of people with a lot of pebbles, though, and the odds improve.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

I didn't tell you to give the dev money OR police the Internet. Just maybe show some support, or at the very least, shut up as opposed to trying to make sure your *own* back is covered by trying to draw a line between "real gamers" and the harassers, as if the harassers don't talk about games online just as much as the rest of us and contribute to the exact same wider community.

That's what this episode was about. Not about policing or financing, but about - at the VERY least - not instinctively looking out for number one when somebody's been victimized.

The irony here is palpable.

Jim, you decry people for instinctively "looking out for number one" - but what about your own participation on The Escapist forums? Almost every time you make a comment on the forums, it's to defend yourself, often aggressively. You very rarely participate in broader discussions. You just seem to pick the posts that most strongly disagree with you, and then reply to those quite aggressively.

I haven't seen you actually discuss the nuances of dissenting arguments - you basically do a hit-and-run on the forums, rather than engaging. I think it would be better if you just took Yahtzee's approach and not read or respond to any comments, instead of reading the first few posts and responding passive-aggressively (or outright aggressively). Either that, or get properly involved in the discussion.

I think the way you interact with The Escapist forum shows one of the ways toxic behaviour such as sexism and trolling online are perpetuated. You seem to lack respect for your own viewers, especially the ones who care enough to comment here. If this issue is so important to you, why do you treat the discussion resulting from your own video with such contempt? Shouldn't we be having a proper discussion here?

If you won't even engage with your own viewers in your own moderated forum, then how do you expect this supposed "gaming community" to do any better in taking on sites like 4chan?