Jimquisition: The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade

[Moth_Monk]

I'm not responsible for anyone else online except for myself. The fact that I play videogames and use the Internet does not, by itself, mean that I am responsible for what other people do online.

Also, it was 4chan. Come on.

 

[carnex]

What you and several others are seemingly assuming is that the women in these circumstances DID NOT take the rational arguments and criticisms of their work on board.
But that is a complete non-issue... People should not be calling them depraved sluts or asking them to return to the kitchen, I don't care what personal affront their existence is to these people. It is not fucking alright. And that's the root of the issue. What you're doing here is derailing that argument to go 'yeah but yeah but yeah but' .

YES. BUT. We get it. And yes ordinarily those circumstances would be processed quietly and professionally without issue. And do not need exploring or investigation under the umbrella of protecting filthy behaviour like this.
Legitimate critique will ALWAYS get through to the developer/creator one way or another. It is their choice to act on it. Sadly it is not up to the critic to take measures into their own hand and violently demand it be taken.

I like to assume that we as gamers ARE better than this. And Jim is right we need to show a more united front against this kind of wanton circle jerk attacks. Otherwise those 'more women in the video game industry' questions have answered themselves. Why aren't there more? Because the level of FEAR is stifling.

I don't mind critique, even a bad one. Nobody makes a good critic without going through a bad phase. However Anita's works is shallow, partial, biased and isolationist. in other words it's a small piece of a big picture that suits her goals and is far from the whole story. That is a mark of a poor work that shouldn't be considered as anything but a lesson in bad research.

Most of all, she never ask herself most important question which is WHY. And the reason for that is that she started with conclusion and then spun the story to justify it which is full of holes and inaccuracies. I don't really care about weather I agree with conclusion or not. I support things I do not believe in by heart but was convinced by logic. Sadly her works have no logic in them.

Given all that, threatening and calling names and unspeakable acts is something to be condemned regardless of the quality of work. Crucify her professionally, yes. But personally... well things did float to surface to suggest she is a fraud but if it wasn't for that i would say no. I just want to separate legitimate criticism of work from nerd rage and trolling.

Oh, and to state this again. This is unintended consequence of true freedom of speech, but i will take abuse in order to be able to state my opinion without fear of getting my head bashed in (not any reasonable fear at least). Life might not be fair but it's not fair to anyone really other than very small percent of people far being the decimal sign of a single percent. We all suffer in some way in order to rejoice in another.

 

[DeaDRabbiT]

I don't know what's more depressing, the harassment of female game devs because they had the gall to be born female, or the fact that everyone else is too bloody spineless to tell the harassers to go crawl back under their rock when this shit happens.

"Oh, but they'll accuse me of 'White Knighting'"! Big whop. "Grow a thicker skin" and to hell with their neanderthal insults. Stand up for what's right, damn it!

I don't understand what anyone expects us to do about this? This isn't a matter of "distancing" ourselves to feel "comfy" it's an issue of "not feeding the trolls" because that seems to be the only sure fire way to deal with them anywhere remotely effectively.

These people are on the internet, they are functioning anonymously, their entire life is built around being the kind of asshole little shits they are. This isn't like going to fight the Taliban. These jerks are legion, and they aren't going anywhere. The only proactive approach to it, is to enforce community standards the places you can (such as Steam, etc) and just turn the other cheek.

Point is, NONE OF WHAT THEY SAY MATTERS!!! It is just words. It's not like they are being dragged through the street by their hair and sold into slavery. They are being mocked and ridiculed by the most insignificant of people. Their views aren't proliferating, they are simply outing themselves for who they are so we can simply ignore them.

I'm all for solution finding, but in the case of internet chauvinists, there is no solution.

 

[Vale]

No man is an island, indeed.
HA THAT WAS A PUN BASED ON THE INHERENT GENDER NON-NEUTRALITY OF THE ENGLISH TERM FOR PERSON
And yeah, good points as usual. We really are not fucking separate from the "crazies". We're all part of the same compost heap. Another reference. Goodie.
Fucking whatever. I don't know what the fuck. Do you fucking know? Fucking... fucking whatever the fuck.

 

[I.Muir]

People can only account for their own actions online. In my experience the internet of 40% abusive, 40% white knight and 20% uncaring. The abusive part does not respond to being called out or reason. They won't stop because anybody told them not to short of their parents stepping in, re-education and real penalties. What they need is to be permanently banned and I don't have that power. I do think it's important not to knock all criticism into the same boat lest access to the ban hammer becomes a means to censor criticism and opposing opinions.

 

[Charli]

What you and several others are seemingly assuming is that the women in these circumstances DID NOT take the rational arguments and criticisms of their work on board.
But that is a complete non-issue... People should not be calling them depraved sluts or asking them to return to the kitchen, I don't care what personal affront their existence is to these people. It is not fucking alright. And that's the root of the issue. What you're doing here is derailing that argument to go 'yeah but yeah but yeah but' .

YES. BUT. We get it. And yes ordinarily those circumstances would be processed quietly and professionally without issue. And do not need exploring or investigation under the umbrella of protecting filthy behaviour like this.
Legitimate critique will ALWAYS get through to the developer/creator one way or another. It is their choice to act on it. Sadly it is not up to the critic to take measures into their own hand and violently demand it be taken.

I like to assume that we as gamers ARE better than this. And Jim is right we need to show a more united front against this kind of wanton circle jerk attacks. Otherwise those 'more women in the video game industry' questions have answered themselves. Why aren't there more? Because the level of FEAR is stifling.

I don't mind critique, even a bad one. Nobody makes a good critic without going through a bad phase. However Anita's works is shallow, partial, biased and isolationist. in other words it's a small piece of a big picture that suits her goals and is far from the whole story. That is a mark of a poor work that shouldn't be considered as anything but a lesson in bad research.

Most of all, she never ask herself most important question which is WHY. And the reason for that is that she started with conclusion and then spun the story to justify it which is full of holes and inaccuracies. I don't really care about weather I agree with conclusion or not. I support things I do not believe in by heart but was convinced by logic. Sadly her works have no logic in them.

Given all that, threatening and calling names and unspeakable acts is something to be condemned regardless of the quality of work. Crucify her professionally, yes. But personally... well things did float to surface to suggest she is a fraud but if it wasn't for that i would say no. I just want to separate legitimate criticism of work from nerd rage and trolling.

I don't like Anita's work* as a whole. However the backlash against her and now women as a collective is the issue at hand. And I will just restate again. It isn't justified. At all.
This has gone beyond professional crucifixion. And perpetuates such behavior to similar intentioned individuals when someone spearheads a campaign based upon doubts but is really just a masked hate parade.

There is no justifying this behavior. Anita may be a deplorable person. But how are the people raging mindlessly and brushing all women in a single stroke* (Again raging and critiquing being the difference, lines can be crossed in both and hiding your criticism under masses of derogation is just proving the point. Not many people have chosen to go down that path. And those who do, are the rational ones, whom I implore to take a heavier handed approach to those who pervert their medium)against her any better? Answer being they're not. And need to be scolded and stamped down on just as hard if that is your prerogative.

And yet they're not. People shy away.

*Again people are choosing to go down this path when it really isn't the point

 

[Aardvaarkman]

imagine your in high school. your walking down a hallway when you see a group of kids bullying another kid who just recently came out of the closet. they are bullying for being gay. it's mostly verbal bullying (insults, name calling and the like), but you do hear one or two threats of violence that you aren't sure whether the bullies are serious about.
Do you:
A) go tell a teacher or other staff member whats happening, or even try to bring them to where the bullying is happening so they can see for themselves
B) go stand up to the bullies, and maybe even try to get the victim away from them
C) walk by the whole thing because its not your problem, and never think about it again
D) walk by, and then when you overhear the victim talking to his friends about what happened, tell the victim "well what did you expect for being open about your sexuality"

Except that this is a really poor analogy, because among other things:

1. I did not witness this event.
2. I don't even go to high school anymore.
3. If I were to enter said high school, I would be ejected from the grounds for trespassing, and likely reported to the police as being a suspected pedophile for being an adult hanging around a high school I have no business being at.
4. I live in a completely different country than the incidents happened in, on the other side of the world.
5. There are no "teachers" or "staff members" to complain to.
6. Whatever "teachers" or "staff members" there are, can't do anything to fix the problem.

Your analogy paints us all as bystanders to an event that most of us were never in proximity to, and can do nothing about.

If this were to happen in a community that I was actually a part of, I would say something. But going into a community I have nothing to do with and complaining is not likely to be productive. And no, just because I play some games does not make me part of the "gaming community" in general, nor the Steam or 4chan communities in particular.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Every since my thread on this very forum asking if gaming is becoming more toxic or cynical couple days ago, I noticed how people try to distance themselves and silence any mention of anything bad gamers did. Often calling me the asshole because "not all gamers are like that" even if I didn't accuse all gamers of being like that.

Its nice to know I wasn't in the wrong and you could explain why they were wrong much better than I could.

No one is trying to silence you. People are trying to state how painting the community with a broad brush of extremely vocal minorities, is not correct or warranted. People are making the observation that it's perhaps easier to blame people who didn't act poorly but are not as outraged about, than it is to actually blame the people who acted poorly who don't give a shit. There are legitimate problems with your position.

Your question was worded in a broad manner, so people responding with "not all gamers are like that" was an entirely correct response. You asserted with your question the idea of gaming as a whole was a certain way, which implies all gamers or at least the majority of them, and then act indignant when someone claims otherwise. I know you wanted to paint the scenario as if you were a victim and everyone was just being completely unfair to you but I doubt that was the case.

However I think your last sentence is the most telling. You needed someone in authority to tell you if you were wrong or right. There is something to be said for contemplating the words of others and finding people that challenge your perceptions of views. However, it seems you held this belief only so far as someone in authority has their stamp of approval on it. Look, I don't mean this as a personal insult but your post just has an air of not being entirely honest with yourself. If you are, and this is truly what you believe, then by all means continue at it and argue, but maybe a bit of reexamination of your own views is called for.

 

[The Material Sheep]

With how ridiculously hyper-connected extreme minority views can be via the internet, it's nearly impossible to ostracize a person or group of people.

It's pretty much impossible to start an avalanche with a pebble, too. Get a lot of people with a lot of pebbles, though, and the odds improve.

There is no amount of collective action that will ostracize a group like that. They have a collective. It might be small but it's enough to reinforce their own beliefs in how correct they are with their own community. It's entrenched you won't be able to get rid of it. You have to accept that its a thing, and short of censoring them all you can't do much about it, unless they start actively breaking the law.

 

[Don Incognito]

And that's the part that pisses me off the most. It's impossible to know if any such "victims" are legit anymore, no thanks to fucktarded feminazis ruining it for the legit ones.

Here's a tip:

If you want your argument/position to be taken seriously, refrain from using terms like "feminazi."

 

[1337mokro]

"Our collective responsibility for the online community"

Yes Jim my personal responsibility in monitoring and policing a completely anonymous group of people with which I rarely ever interact or actually engage in the same activities outside of actual gaming with. Why won't I take this responsibility that is so clearly mine! I should be running IP trackers to bust down everyone who dares to call a woman a **** on the internet. Maybe in 2-3 years we'll have become so sensitive about our feels we might even extend that protection to men who have been called harsh names like "stupid head".

Why not all pitch in to fund the internet police? If we all contributed 5$ we could have the best funded police force in the world going around making sure that everyone's feelings haven't been hurt. Heck we should start a three strike rule, if you say something mean more than 3 times you will be blocked off the internet forever. That way the people left on it by the end of next month will be able to browse the absolutely desolate internet without any fear of being slightly annoyed or hurt by words. Because... people not being made to feel sad... that's the most important thing in the world...

Now that I have done the obligatory internet thing of mocking your position in an attempt to discredit it please note how I never attacked you personally. I never threatened anything close to you or any kind of harm upon your person. In short even with the anonymity of internet I still behave as I would like other people to behave when interacting with me. I know I basically drove straight past the point about harassment not being ok but that's actually my entire point here. I don't engage in harassment, that is my responsibility, not the actions of anonymous people that I have no power over.

I can quite conclusively state that yes, the group of idiots that sends threats and harassing e-mails is a separate group from myself. You could post a video of me photoshopped into whatever you desire to slander me with and it could not provoke me into threatening your person. So please do berate me for feeling slightly superior to the morons that would flip out over a game being submitted to greenlight.

Not to mention that it's all good and well that you say we should take action... but never once suggest a course, except maybe supporting the developer, which would entail what? Sending positive spam mails to the same accounts that get harassed? A man with no ideas about how to fix the problem should not going around holding speeches about how big the problem is.

 

[Raziel]

I freely admit there are tons of things wrong with the attitudes of gamers as a whole and certainly women is one of issues. And there is no defense of it. But I'm at a loss as to what can be done about it. Some people are awful to each other all the time everywhere. Gamers are hardly special in that regard. The anonymity of the internet just makes people feel free to be even worse and also eggs each other on.

 

[Evonisia]

Good as usual, and I'm glad the reaction to the Nintendo related complaint was a bit more mature than the Bayonetta 2 reaction (though that was brilliant).

 

[carnex]

I don't like Anita's work* as a whole. However the backlash against her and now women as a collective is the issue at hand. And I will just restate again. It isn't justified. At all.
This has gone beyond professional crucifixion. And perpetuates such behavior to similar intentioned individuals when someone spearheads a campaign based upon doubts but is really just a masked hate parade.

There is no justifying this behavior. Anita may be a deplorable person. But how are the people raging mindlessly and brushing all women in a single stroke* (Again raging and critiquing being the difference, lines can be crossed in both and hiding your criticism under masses of derogation is just proving the point. Not many people have chosen to go down that path. And those who do, are the rational ones, whom I implore to take a heavier handed approach to those who pervert their medium)against her any better? Answer being they're not. And need to be scolded and stamped down on just as hard if that is your prerogative.

And yet they're not. People shy away.

*Again people are choosing to go down this path when it really isn't the point

I just want to point out one problem. Attack on Anita is not attack on all women no matter how deplorable those are and how much certain group wants to sell it as one.

And to state that I added one paragraph after you started quoting me. And I must repeat myself. Internet is anarchy and outside small fenced parts of it (forums, sites...) you can't really do anything against people whose behavior you find unacceptable. It's a trade off that I wouldn't change ever. I will take all abuse that comes my way for my freedom to state my opinion as freely as they do. Also that exact freedom leads to new social paradigms unimaginable just few decades ago but also leads to horrific misinformation campaigns lead by certain individuals and companies. Individuals never had this much power and had to withstand so much criticism and abuse in trade for that power. And I wish this would go on forever or at very least as long as possible. Not because i love abuse but because I love idea that there can be balance between individuals and powers. With great power comes great responsibility but even greater price.

 

[Charli]

It seems to me alot of people are taking Jim's message as attacks against them.

Why is that? I am genuinely curious. If you really thought that this message applied to you, then it's clear you're either misconstruing him, or are secretly one of those frothing ragers or cowards who shy away and stay quiet when some asshat makes a derogative statement toward a female or LGBQT or different race or ethnicity, despite you not sitting well with it.

So explain it to me. Why is telling people that making a 'gaming environment' a place usually associated with a place to have fun, and at one time a refuge for those non athletic types to enjoy, a non-hostile place for anyone not in line with the default expectations of a human being, NOT OKAY WITH YOU?

I know these people can be relentless but ignoring them isn't disassociating us with them in the eyes of others.

Just as radical feminists have tainted and marred the name of feminism forever. I frequently butt heads with these lunatics telling them to curb their misandrist, self opinionated freak-shows of un-scientifically proven circle jerking.

So why is it when I come in to this area of community I see shying away, and unsureness in the face of what are undoubtedly a bunch of Omega male cowards hiding behind phones and internet trying to put down others in extremely harsh and psychologically damaging circumstances.

The message was simple. Stand together and stand up. Do not allow others to be put down WHOMEVER they are, for traits that are inherently part of themselves. It is not an attack on Critique. It is not an attack on you. It is simple a call to be a decent human being... a stronger human being, and to highlight and shame those that dare take out their misplaced aggression on something undeserved. Support one another on mindless hatred being uncool. Make them fear the retribution from a community if they call up some poor indie developer and start threatening to rape their spouse or do unthinkable things to their kids.
Because this bullshit happens, and yes police can get involved, but we can stop it at the source. We can prevent the action even happening.

 

[ShakerSilver]

The gaming community is not a group, Jim. You are grouping up millions of strangers and telling them to take responsibility for a vocal group of offenders. This is just as bad as saying "Sexist Gamers Attack Anita Sarkeesian". Did all gamers criticize her? No. Were all of her critics attacking her because of her gender? No.

These issues aren't as black-and-white as we'd like them to be. You're telling me to support a project I never heard of before because the creator got offended by assholes. Just because some assholes decide to say shitty things doesn't mean that we should all be nice to the victim because they got some harsh comments. What if I don't find the particular project interesting or don't agree with what the person in question is saying? Yes, plenty of the attacks she received should not be tolerated, but there's little anyone can do to prevent this while remaining neutral on the topic. The "you're either with us or against us" mentality doesn't help make either side seem attractive, which is why I'd rather just not get involved with the issue.

 

[marurder]

Being someone who doesn't talk often on forums and likes to lurk. I like games, I like to play games. Same as I like music and like to listen to music, and movies!
That said, I don't feel it necessary to know about the actors/directors/crew in any given movie and know the life story of a band/artist I like to listen to.
Why should games have special attention when these other industries suffer the same issues (albeit lesser nowadays)?

Why should I be told I am wrong for saying nothing on a forum when it is my nature? Why am I the asshole when I haven't said anything against the victim?

I agree there is a cancer in the game industry, it is everywhere and it will cause a 'collapse' [or revolution] of sorts. But at the end of the day, it seems like 'casual gamers' are getting a better and better name, as they are 'distant' enough from the cesspit that is dominating the gaming forums everywhere, but close enough to the medium to still have fun.

 

[McFazzer]

I don't understand why being called a 'White Knight' is an insult. Aren't there people that might actually NEED a White Knight? Someone to stand up for them when they get kicked down? Being a White Knight isn't necessarily a bad thing, if someone is in a position to help out shouldn't they? Or is there a creepy 'Bystander Effect' on the internet that is preventing people from helping?

I don't know... I just reckon some people could use a White Knight. Or an Army of them. It's pretty dangerous if you end up getting threatening phone calls after all.

 

[Aulleas123]

I tend to be one of those folks who will not stick my neck out on the line on the internet and I usually try to find the logic in peoples' comments and ideas. But if people are just after these developers just because of what body parts they have between their legs and on nothing else, that's pathetic. Part of me feels like folks seek these comments out to point and say "we still have problems with women in games"; but if these comments are happening in the first place, then they do need to be brought out into the light.

I will say that I disagree with Jim's notion that we cannot separate reasonable gamers from unreasonable gamers. In any group, whether ideological, political, national, religious, or hobby-based, there will be individual differences. Sure, we have to work better to speak out about BS like this incident, but I believe that there is merit in saying that there are individual differences between these gamers and that explaining that "not all gamers are like this" is a reasonable discussion point. Plus, it's true. Many of the comments made on this forum topic support this point, not all gamers are alike. So why isn't it reasonable for me, as a non-bigoted player who doesn't really know or play with any bigoted players, to say that "not all gamers are bigots"?

In addition, I have a tough time with the 'ecosystem' idea. I have an workplace ecosystem, a culture with my friends and family, and a culture with other face-to-face organizations. In a place where I'm surrounded by faceless comments on the internet, I'm sorry but I feel as if there's an 'ecosystem'. It's reasonable, I don't work in the 'ecosystem' and I don't share all of the beliefs of the 'ecosystem', and I don't feel that I have any effect on the 'ecosystem'. I don't really feel the same connection to this 'ecosystem' as others may. I see this as a website where I can see news stories and information about my hobby, but I don't really feel a true connection of an 'ecosystem' as others may due to my lack of investment or reception in this system.

I agree with Jim's main points, but I don't agree with the details of this 'ecosystem' idea.