Jimquisition: The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade

[nightazday]

So what do you plan to do with 4chan the board that is exclusively about trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls?

 

[Redd the Sock]

Jim, people generally don't like to be stereotyped in any sense. Christians don't like to be lumped in with westborough. Moderate Republicans don't like to be equated to the Tea Party. Stuff like that. So when you see gamers try to "distance" themselves from criticism, it might be because we're hoping for the level of courtesy of not lumping the whole for the few asshats we encounter that you'd want shown about feminists being equated to anyone that's threatened to cut mens' privates off.

In general I take a different approach: words only have the power you give them, and the actions we're taking about not tolerating harassment aren't helpful. If we're dealing with trolls, you pretty much hand them exactly what they want: attention, entertainment, and full knowledge of what button to push to start the process over again. I mean, rape threats aren't counter arguments to start with, but do you really think anyone is making them thinking "this will be the rape threat that wins me the day." For the people that (think they) are making actual arguments, anger and the social justice internet army might silence poor opinions, but they don't do away with them. It actually might do more to entrench them as anger, insults, and other replies that don't counter arguments or provide education just make it seem a nerve has been hit, and that by running to the rest of the internet for support, that you can't stand up for your own beliefs on your own. Moderated comments and blocking don't change minds either. They just put it all out of sight, out of mind until someone does something dumb on twitter and our tolerance utopia crumbles around us.

Look, I've stood up in the past for more civil online discourse when I was there and involved. I don't like harassment in any form, but I'm not going to fight other peoples' bullies for them, even as a voice in a mob. I mean, the whole attitude of letting strangers' words have such an impact on you is lost on me to start with, and reeks of an insecure teenager with self esteem problems, but this modern attitude of "someone's been mean to me, better sic the internet on them" is something I find more concerning about humanity than the harassment itself.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

"Don't feed the trolls" is a failure, you see. For as long as it's existed, for all the sense it might make, it's failed as it hasn't stopped trolling, and likely never will.

No, it works. I've seen it work plenty of times. The problem is that it needs to be taken seriously. The reason trolls still exist is because people keep feeding them.

While some people don't feed the trolls, there are still plenty who do, particularly people in high-visibility positions. Hell, just look at the current state of journalism. Major TV news shows, websites and newspapers are practically devoted to feeding trolls, to the point where a huge portion of the news we see, hear and read is driven by trolling and sensationalism.

If it worked, everyone would do it, and there would be no trolls. If people don't do it, then it's too hard to do, so it's not a perfect solution. And trolls can make it plenty hard to ignore them.
Statistically it's not possible to ignore every troll ever because they want to figure you out, and will keep trying you until they succeed. Sooner or later someone will find a way to set you off, and the more explosive you are when set off, the better.
Due to the fact trolling still exists, maybe we need another solution? Even if it's just to supplement "don't feed the trolls."

Yeah, news works on sensationalism, and trolling, I don't deny that, but sooner or later there'll be something that can't be ignored, so it gets reported on.

 

[Spearmaster]

Its the internet, it is a free zone not a community like some seem to believe. Try all you want to support victims and demonize trolls it will never stop them.

This whole video was just a waste of time and a sad way for Jim to soak up hits by capitalizing on this poor woman's problem, The shame should be on the vultures making money from turning this issue into a carnival.

Is Jim Sterling gonna actually do anything to help the situation? No, because like the rest of us there is nothing he can do...But he can turn a quick buck making a video blaming everyone else.

Trying to tell everyone that has nothing to do with the situation, that treat others with respect, that minding our own business is part of the problem because were not showing outrage about something were not outraged about...just sad.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

I am seeing a lot of people saying Jim said you have to act - and that's not actually what he said. What he said is that if you choose not to act on the issue - which is 100% your right - don't then go online and whine at those who do.

Which is a massive straw man. He was basically accusing everyone who disagree with his approach of "looking out for number one." Which is a rubbish argument. He's implying that people who disagree with him are only doing it in their own self-interest. It's not much different to the "white knight" ad-hominem.

How about those of us who don't consider the "gaming community" to be a real thing that we are a part of? He outright said in the video that the actions of these scumbags somehow reflect on the rest of us because we play games.

Sorry, but no. Does the fact that some other human committed serial murders reflect poorly on me, just because I am also human? I don't think so.

If a topic doesn't interest you - don't post on it. You don't have to give your two cents, and doing so just makes you look bad.

The topic interests me plenty. I think you meant to say "if you don't agree with the author's position on a topic, don't post on it." Which is not a very strong argument.

And this covers more than feminism really, if all you have to contribute to any discussion about bad behaviour is how you aren't in the class being criticised, or how bored you are of the discussion, or how "it is the Internet" or something like that, it just means you are really part of the problem.

Who has been saying that in this thread?

You don't have to participate in the discussion, but that you choose to, and you do so in a manner which is more about dismissing complaints rather than dealing with them, shows you are part of the issue that is being complained about.

What??

 

[spartenX]

so what? you must have witnessed some form of bullying in your life right? and if not, then imagine your coming across a case of bullying. you do know what imagine means right?

Absolutely. I have experienced bullying, and I know what "imagine" means. This, however, does not make your analogy apt, because Jim is essentially asking every gamer to intervene in this situation, even if they did not witness it, or are not a part of that particular community.

actually I just watched the video, and all he said is that we are apart of the wider gaming community, and that we should stop pretending that the assholes aren't a problem

mods and admins

Do you really think that the 4chan admins are going to do anything about this?

fair point, I really should have specified mods and admins on sites where the mods and admins aren't asses themselves.

mods and admins banning the abusers. In fact some jerk in this thread got banned just a few posts ago

Yeah, because The Escapist isn't 4chan. I reported that jerk within minutes of the post. My reporting him might have been the first one the mods responded to.

Yet I don't think that my reporting him on this thread is going to actually have any effect on the issue.

well it's still better then just sitting by and saying "well that's just the stuff you should expect from the internet". even if reporting and banning assholes doesn't fix the problem, it's at least making an effort

and since you missed it the first time, let me make it clear. you should be doing this stuff when your around it,

Which I do, and just dis earlier today.

not jumping into other communities and going on some sort of anti-bullying crusade. the video, and the point of my analogy, was to try and get people to stop victim blaming, or just saying that it isn't their problem because they aren't directly involved...

So, what are we supposed to do? Jim says that we're somehow part of the problem, even though I report this kind of stuff in any communities I'm involved with, and don't blame victims in any way.

He doesn't say that you, or anyone on this site specifically is part of the problem. what he said is that we all contribute to a larger gaming community. Obviously no one person can stand up to every asshole on the net, and thats not what Jim is saying we should do. right now he's just calling out the people who blame the victim, or treat this as something that isn't a problem with the gaming community as a whole, even if it is a minority of the members of the community

when the events are happening around them.

None of these events happened "around me" - the only connection is that I watched Jim's video, which mentioned it. But it did not happen on The Escapist.

then their isn't really much you can do in this specific case. really on a person by person basis we can only do what we can when we see abuse happening. Sending some kind words the victims way when you find out about he abuse couldn't hurt either

high school=website
hall way=forum thread
bullies=shouldn't have to explain
victim=see previous
insults, and threats of violence=the insults and threats of violence in the forum posts
teachers and staff=admins and mods

Again, this didm;t happen on any forums I used, so it's basically the same as a high school in another country. Also, these trolls come from places that either don't have moderators, or have moderators who support their trolling. So, what exactly am I supposed to do about it?

I have to admit you do really have a point here. while we can do what we can to stop harassment on boards we visit, we can't really do to much to effect forums we don't visit, or forums where it seems the entire site is on the side of the trolls and assholes. I honestly wish I could come up with some solution to the problem, but I can't. The only thing I can think of is more people doing what your doing, and reporting the harassers and making it clear they aren't welcomed, and hopefully they will all recede to the darkest corners of the internet where there will only have the other assholes of the internet to spread their hate to, and over the years less and less people will be exposed to the mind set that you can get away with this kind of shit and cause the harassers to slowly die out as fewer assholes come to take their place.
beyond that, there really doesn't seem to be much we can do.

also if I came across as antagonistic in my earlier response, or even in this one I do apologize.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

If it worked, everyone would do it, and there would be no trolls.

That's a massive assumption, that everybody is interested in getting rid of trolls. The runaway success of Reality TV is a prime example that people want trolls and like the drama they cause.

If people don't do it, then it's too hard to do, so it's not a perfect solution.

Nobody said it was a perfect solution. But it's a hell of a lot better than what most people seem to be doing, which is feeding the trolls. Do you think that giving them the attention they want is the right solution?

Due to the fact trolling still exists, maybe we need another solution? Even if it's just to supplement "don't feed the trolls."

I think trolling mostly still exists not to people not feeding the trolls, but due to the fact that so many people love feeding them.

 

[Fearzone]

This isn't a game but a pedantic tutorial about what the game designer sees as depression. More "art" software with a message spoon feeding us what to think rather than letting us have fun.

In real life we would like to tell these artists that their art is shit, but we can't. The best we can do is ignore it and hope it fades into obscurity while the experts praise its creativity and originality. Probably on the internet, the reasonable among us should do the same thing, and we do, for the most part.

Well, hey, this whole business got me to play the game, unfortunately. Gotta admit I was button mashing through the last half of it.

 

[Psychobabble]

I am seeing a lot of people saying Jim said you have to act - and that's not actually what he said. What he said is that if you choose not to act on the issue - which is 100% your right - don't then go online and whine at those who do.

If a topic doesn't interest you - don't post on it. You don't have to give your two cents, and doing so just makes you look bad.

And this covers more than feminism really, if all you have to contribute to any discussion about bad behaviour is how you aren't in the class being criticised, or how bored you are of the discussion, or how "it is the Internet" or something like that, it just means you are really part of the problem.

You don't have to participate in the discussion, but that you choose to, and you do so in a manner which is more about dismissing complaints rather than dealing with them, shows you are part of the issue that is being complained about.

Isn't this line of "you should just shut the fuck up then" thinking identical with what Jim says is wrong about what he calls "victim blaming"? If you just sit there and claim there is only one possible rationale to this situation then the hope that any kind of understanding can be reached to help do away with this kind of septic behavior, goes right out the window.

It's very easy when these things happen to just pick up a pitchfork and join in screaming hysterically with the rest of the internet lynch mob. It's a bit harder to look at the situation rationally and try to find solutions. If no one tries to understand who both sides of this issue are, what makes them tick, what is their motivation, then nothing about this situation is ever going to change. It just becomes yet another combination internet pity party and flame bait fest. Which I'm sure suits journalists just fine as it sure as hell ups the post count. But I have to ask, does it help solve a fucking thing? Did this do anything to help people like Zoe Quinn be safer from douche baggery on the internet?

I personally feel this issue would be better served if journalists would do a little fucking delving into the issue, instead of just ratcheting up the rhetoric every time this issue occurs. Is Zoe Quinn the only female greenlight developer? If not, has this happened to other female greenlight developers? (And yes I know this has happen to female developers outside greenlight as well, not all but some, one must wonder why some devs get flack but not others, if this stupidity is based solely on their gender) Because if so, their tales of unjustified harassment should get mentioned here as well. If not, then why the fuck are these dick stains focusing so much venom on Zoe Quinn, why are they choosing to pick on her? And from the way this story keeps getting reported ONLY her?

Anyway it's all very easy to lean out a window and yell "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore." It's much harder to get off your dead ass and actually attempt to do something about whatever is bugging you.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

actually I just watched the video, and all he said is that we are apart of the wider gaming community, and that we should stop pretending that the assholes aren't a problem

I'm probably repeating myself, but this ones back to the straw man issue - I don't think many people around here are saying that the assholes aren't a problem. And it's kind of an assholish thing to say, because his video implies that we, his viewers, are taking this stance that assholes aren't a problem.

I don't recall ever saying that these assholes aren't a problem, or ignoring the issue to protect myself or the gaming community's image.

also if I came across as antagonistic in my earlier response, or even in this one I do apologize.

No problem. Any discussion of sensitive issues like this is going to result in awkwardness and discomfort. As long as people aren't being outright hostile or abusive, I'm up for a vigorous debate. None of this is about absolutes.

The biggest disappointment is that Jim doesn't seem to care enough to actually enter the discussion he started.

 

[Karadalis]

And not fighting trolls means they work harder to get a reaction. They don't know where the lines are drawn until they cross them, and they're eager to find those lines. They'll get more and more obnoxious until they get the reaction they want, and even then that might not stop them from getting worse. Due to that it's generally impossible to ignore them because part of their joy is figuring out what, exactly, is the ***** in your armor.

"Don't feed the trolls" is a failure, you see. For as long as it's existed, for all the sense it might make, it's failed as it hasn't stopped trolling, and likely never will. All it did was let trolling get more and more obnoxious by not giving repercussions to trolling.
Being "banned" or suspended, or whatever doesn't stop trolls. It doesn't hurt them. When they're driven to make people miserable, nothing's really going to stop them. They'll just make new accounts.

They might work "harder"

But in the end they are just as powerless as anyone else. Tell me.. what can one of these trolls do that i cant? Nothing. When you boil it down its all just words.. you can choose to ignore them or to aknowledge them. What youre suposed to do is work together with the authorities if things get out of hand. Thats all.. no one else not involved can change anything about that.

Think about it: They work harder and harder but no matter how hard they work they get ignored.

At one point even they give up and thats the moment when you won over the troll. Does it make them disapear? No.. but it also doesnt give them any form of satisfaction.

Dont feed the trolls is not a failure if you follow through with it, but as people like Jim proove it is to joice of a topic and creates way to much attention to let it be. More attention = more money.

I might have to point out thought that i absolutely agree with your argument to report these trolls. No discussion there. But you are not suposed to engage in forum combat to defend the person whos being harassed either. Youre doing them no favour and instead only attract more hatefull people.

They are like vultures and youre throwing out more meat for them to gobble up.

Also it hasnt stopped trolling because it does not and can not get rid of the people who troll. Nor does any other attempt at fixing the problem.

Haters gonna hate... that is a fundamental truth of this world. They are not going away EVER aslong as humanity exist. Blaming everyone else for their existance thought isnt helping either and is rather insulting if you think about it.

Its like blaming all muslims for 9/11

Or that im to blame that hooligans are beating people up and sometimes kill them because i also happen to like soccer? Because that is what Jim is saying in his video.

Guilty by association and everyone who distances him or herselfe from those people is suddenly an asshole and a lesser person?

Should every trollpost now be met with millions of counterposts? People dont have time for that.. people have their own problems and own lives without making someone elses problem their own just because they both happen to be involved in the same hobby.

Work with the authorities who have the power to actually remove the bile, but dont try to make your problem everyones else who isnt directly involved with whats going on. Especialy when it comes down to internet harassment. No matter of raising attention to this problem is going to stop hatefull people unless the internet stops being anonymous.

And i cant imagine anyone wants that to happen either. Yes im being very harsh to the victims here but that is the cold truth. Rallying support from the powerless is not going to help you because by definition they are powerless.

Or does anyone really believe me posting in support of that Game dev is going to change anything? Or 100 people? Or 1000? or 10.000s? Or millions? The number doesnt matter, they are still powerless and can easaly be ignored by the haters or rather become fuel for their hate.

Yeah. See, they want to get a rise out of you, see. And if they don't get one, they'll decide that you're a target and keep trying until they do because you challenge them. They want to get you mad, remember?

Granted, a troll is only human, same as you, and I, but it's not that they can do things we can't, it's what they chose to do.

See, the contradiction arises again. You can't ignore something, yet acknowledge it exists.
Ignoring something means to deny it exists. You can't report something you deny exists.
If you're open to constructive criticism, I'd say more along the lines of "report them, and do not reply to them" or some such. Unfortunately that only works when there's people to make reports to, and even if there are people to make reports to, they might not get as offended as you are, so the troll stands unpunished. With my battlegrounds being in gender issues among gaming, I've seen a lot of abrasive posts that stand.

They work harder, and harder until they're ringing your telephone. It's the thrill of the hunt for some of them. Sure, call the police, but what if the trolls are 12 yearolds? They'll likely just get slapped on the wrist, and the thrill of their lives that they got attention.

Ignoring them just lets them move the lines they have to cross to get to you. When you want gold/silver/what have you, do you stop using your pick just because there's some rock in your way? The rewards are worth it.
think about the scenario of a child calling their parent over, and over, and over again, not because they're hungry, or in danger, they want to make their parent mad. When the parent finally snaps, the reaction is far greater the longer they've been annoyed.
It's the same way with trolls. They're the kid trying to annoy you, the parent, until you snap, and they want you to explode big time.

Don't feed the trolls is a failure because you said it yourself. Haters are going to hate. It doesn't make the trolls go away, it just makes you a bigger challenge, and gets you more attention. You're pretty damned either way unless you luck out, and the only trolls you come up against are not really devoted to trolling.
Statistically it's impossible for everyone to ignore them all on top of that. Sooner or later, a troll will say the right thing to make you mad.
Sooner or later all the people trying to make you mad will become too much. What are you supposed to do? Become a hermit? A person's skin can only get so thick.
Don't feed the trolls sounds great on paper until you're faced with a troll. Especially faced with a smart troll that knows how to skirt the rules, and continually annoy you.

Well, I'm not terribly up to date on the Muslims. Have there been protests against 9/11 from them? Have they showed large scale, or organized outrage against the people that did 9/11?
I'm not saying I blame them all, mind you. I handle people on a case by case basis, frankly.
On that note, when was the last time -gamers- made any sort of organized outrage against the trolls?
Sure it might give the trolls attention, but it'd also show the world that not everyone agrees with them, or are like them. The trolls are winning. People outside looking in think we're all trolls. The trolls are getting attention.

Soccer? When was the last time you protested the hooligans?

Innocent until proven guilty isn't a universal thing. People get hurt by a group, word spreads, the group looks bad. If they rarely, if ever look good, then what the heck are people supposed to think? Humanity is pretty hard wired to think in terms of tribes, grouping people into like people and thinking of people as a group. When that group seems full of assholes, they're a group of assholes until they show otherwise. It's like those alien invasion movies where the aliens see humanity as irredeemable scum until some humans show the aliens that humanity has potential, and aren't all scum. This moral isn't taken for granted. It's not always imprinted upon people. People will get conditioned to see a group of people a certain way. Again, if that certain way is "asshole" then that's the way it is until enough non-assholes show otherwise.

Trollposts should be met with moderation. If that's not possible, then, well, something has to be done. Enough disdain shown towards them until the troll's feelings are hurt enough until they stop might work. We have to show they're not welcome, don't we? Coz until we do, they'll make themselves at home, the way I see it.
People don't have to make time to find these posts, mind you. Just do what needs to be done when you can do it. Is that reasonable?

If you don't give a damn about other people, how can you expect people to give a damn about you? Their problems are problems, and problems are made to be solved. Solutions are easier with many people involved so long as they're on the same page.
But the problem arises again, haters gunna hate. It won't make them all go away either.
Still, it is so terrible to exercise some empathy, and sympathy?
The -real- problem, IMO, is people are afraid to rely on one another, and have to fix their own problems.

the problem with leaving it to the authorities is that people can just make another account. There's no authorities over the internet. Some sites have authorities, but not all of them. Trolls can't be stopped either way. Trolls get banned, they make new accounts, and resume trying to burn the planet for the view.

Real life authorities can't act until certain things happen, and if a troll stays petty enough, real life authority tends not to do a damn thing.
I mean, all these harassing phone calls. Why aren't there followup articles stating these people got put in jail, juvy (likely there, I'd imagine), sued, or otherwise punished? The trolls see the other trolls don't get punished, then copy cat.

Being harsh to the victims? I don't really see that. Being harsh to the victims is trolling them. Especially until they break.
Leaving the victims to their own devices isn't going to help. They're going to reach a breaking point all the faster without support, and frankly I figure that leads to pain, and bloodshed.

So it's a no win situation, isn't it? Haters gunna hate. Still, they're going to make themselves at home until we kick them out, and show them they aren't wanted sufficiently that they go away.

But you cannot do anything else but leaving the victims to their own devices.. in the end NOTHING you do will help them. Infact you adding more drama to the burning pile of tires. The only ones who can take down the fire are the admins and moderators and community managers. Your only contribution has to be and should be to report hatefull behavior.

Do not answer them.

Do not try to debate with them

Do not argue with them

Report them and let the authorities delete their posts/ban them do whatever they see necesary.

That is ALL you should do. EVERYTHING else is aknowledging them, is giving them fuel, is giving them recognition, is giving them what they want.

You say they want to get you mad... and say ignoring them only gets them more invested. But not ignoring them ALSO plays in their hands by giving them EXACTLY what they want.

Never ever engage these haters in conversation. Deal with them quitly and indirectly over the people in charge. Do NOT go into the dragons cave and poke it because you feel wronged... it wont help.

Dealing with trolls is like dealing with childs.. you do not hit the child in the face nor do you discuss endlessly with the little brat. You get his parents involved. If that doesnt help and the brat does something unlawfull you call the proper authorities.. you do not however take action yourselfe to "settle" matters.



As for Jims more or less "guilty by association"

These trollish retards do not play any role in the community i am part of.. i do not associate with people of that kind despite them and me having the same hobby. And thats why i am right to say that these people do not represent me and that i have nothing to do with them.

I see them as borderline criminals who use my hobby as a vice for their hatefull bile all over the place.

They might enjoy their games but that makes them not part of the community i am part of.. because that would mean they actually interact with said community instead of building their own sub communities that revel in their own hatred for everything and everyone.

The best example i can come up with are nazi metal bands.

These people use music to lure in young people to their cause.

Yet no one blames the rest of the music industry and fans of metal music that somehow because they dont actively fight or try to stop these nazi rockbands that somehow they are part of the problem.

When nazi metalheads harass a foreigner are suddenly all metal fans to blame because they dont see it as their problem?

 

[Rebel_Raven]

If it worked, everyone would do it, and there would be no trolls.

That's a massive assumption, that everybody is interested in getting rid of trolls. The runaway success of Reality TV is a prime example that people want trolls and like the drama they cause.

If people don't do it, then it's too hard to do, so it's not a perfect solution.

Nobody said it was a perfect solution. But it's a hell of a lot better than what most people seem to be doing, which is feeding the trolls. Do you think that giving them the attention they want is the right solution?

Due to the fact trolling still exists, maybe we need another solution? Even if it's just to supplement "don't feed the trolls."

I think trolling mostly still exists not to people not feeding the trolls, but due to the fact that so many people love feeding them.

Okay, let me put it another way. If it worked, the people being trolled that don't want to be trolled would do it, and they'd be left alone as opposed to receive numerous troll posts, and eventually get rung up IRL. A successful troll is really hard to ignore, though, isn't it? They wouldn't be successful otherwise.

I'm not saying giving them they attention they want is the solution, I'm thinking, maybe, give them the attention they don't want. Either emotionally destroy them enough that they don't want to troll coz they'll get hurt again, or do the far opposite, and calmly defuse them. Neither's really easy, unfortunately. A troll's reason to be is to tick you off. If they want you ticked off, they'll sure as heck try.
Then again, this could be where other people can come in, to defend the victim of trolling with attention the troll doesn't want. Together we stand, divided we fall. Unfortunately this is easier said than done, too. Too many people aren't great at relying on other people, or helping other people.

Okay, there's people who don't want the trolls gone, and they feed the trolls willingly. So how do we make the troll feeders do something they don't want to do? Until we can, we can't get rid of trolls, can we?
It's not entirely better to not feed them because if they want to get your attention, they'll keep upping the ante until you go off, or someone else does. They'll keep burdening you with their trolling until they add enough to break your back.

 

[Karadalis]

If it worked, everyone would do it, and there would be no trolls.

That's a massive assumption, that everybody is interested in getting rid of trolls. The runaway success of Reality TV is a prime example that people want trolls and like the drama they cause.

If people don't do it, then it's too hard to do, so it's not a perfect solution.

Nobody said it was a perfect solution. But it's a hell of a lot better than what most people seem to be doing, which is feeding the trolls. Do you think that giving them the attention they want is the right solution?

Due to the fact trolling still exists, maybe we need another solution? Even if it's just to supplement "don't feed the trolls."

I think trolling mostly still exists not to people not feeding the trolls, but due to the fact that so many people love feeding them.

Okay, let me put it another way. If it worked, the people being trolled that don't want to be trolled would do it, and they'd be left alone as opposed to receive numerous troll posts, and eventually get rung up IRL. A successful troll is really hard to ignore, though, isn't it? They wouldn't be successful otherwise.

I'm not saying giving them they attention they want is the solution, I'm thinking, maybe, give them the attention they don't want. Either emotionally destroy them enough that they don't want to troll coz they'll get hurt again, or do the far opposite, and calmly defuse them. Neither's really easy, unfortunately. A troll's reason to be is to tick you off. If they want you ticked off, they'll sure as heck try.
Then again, this could be where other people can come in, to defend the victim of trolling with attention the troll doesn't want. Together we stand, divided we fall. Unfortunately this is easier said than done, too. Too many people aren't great at relying on other people, or helping other people.

Okay, there's people who don't want the trolls gone, and they feed the trolls willingly. So how do we make the troll feeders do something they don't want to do? Until we can, we can't get rid of trolls, can we?
It's not entirely better to not feed them because if they want to get your attention, they'll keep upping the ante until you go off, or someone else does. They'll keep burdening you with their trolling until they add enough to break your back.

So basically you suggest we should engage in borderline criminal behavior because they do it too?

"Destroying them emotionally"

Do you know what you are suggesting here?

Do you know what it means to emotionaly destroy someone?

Those are some very extreme words youre using here.

Calmly defusing them sounds much better wich i think i have been suggesting. Letting people whos job it is to deal with this stuff to.. well.. deal with this stuff is much preferable to call for a gamer crusade against internet harassment.

Because unlike such calls for demonstration in real live... on the internet they can just be ignored like these "like this if you are against animal cruelty" BS on facebook.

Or internet pettitions of any kind...

The problem here is anonymity. Aslong as that exist nothing your run of the mill person with no influence can do will have any impact. And honestly i would rather not give up my anonymity just so people can post their private info all over the internet and expect it to not have negative side effects.

Taking a "stance" against harrasment might sound impressive on paper... but it has no effect on the people you take a stance against. Protected by being anonymous they have absolutely no reason to fear such actions.. they have no repercusions on them.

 

[Luminous Chroma]

I'm calling BS on this one.

I'll state it straightaway: I didn't rush to the defense of Zoe Quinn. I heard what was happening, rolled my eyes in disgust, then went about my own business. And you know what? I'm not sorry for it. Furthermore, contrary to our dear Mr. Sterling's oh-so-measured opinion, I am NOT an asshole because of it.

I have never harassed another person. Have I had arguments? You bet. Have I been rude and confrontational? To people I felt deserved it, yes. But have ever I intentionally set out to wound another person through malicious actions? Absolutely not, and therein lies the failure in Jim's assertions.

It's true that I didn't go speeding across the internet, sounding my trumpet in the defense of Zoe Quinn. As I said, I rolled my eyes and went on with my life. But the thing is, one of the normal, daily practices of my life is to treat the people I encounter with respect and good manners, regardless of their gender, race, social standing, etc. The fact that I don't choose to entangle myself in every miserable situation on the internet does NOT mean I'm the equal of some vile little troll. I am their moral better, as is nearly everyone who will read this.

Jim has made a false, irrational, unsupportable claim, and this is a statement of my direct and vehement opposition. I am a good and moral person. As far as I can tell, Jim is a good person. If you're reading this, chances are that you're a pretty good person too. Am I an asshole because I didn't get involved in a forum battle over the actions of some putrid turds from a dank corner of the net?

Nope.

And you know what?

Neither are you.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Okay, let me put it another way. If it worked, the people being trolled that don't want to be trolled would do it, and they'd be left alone as opposed to receive numerous troll posts, and eventually get rung up IRL. A successful troll is really hard to ignore, though, isn't it? They wouldn't be successful otherwise.

The places I've seen "don't feed the trolls" work is mostly places with an older demographic, comprised of people who are highly knowledgeable about the internet, and have been using it since the USENET days. This is not the way the internet is heading, as most users today are naive and uninformed. This is why places like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc. are so popular.

So, I don't think there's much that can be done. There doesn't seem to be any way that experienced users will be able to have much influence on these matters, due to the massive influx of people who don't know how to deal with this stuff.

Either emotionally destroy them enough that they don't want to troll coz they'll get hurt again...

They'll keep burdening you with their trolling until they add enough to break your back.

These ideas seem creepily close together. No matter how badly someone behaves, "emotionally destroying" anybody is a terrible thing that shouldn't even be contemplated by reasonable people.

 

[Torque2100]

Allow me to start off this discussion by saying that anyone who rubs one out into a phone or makes constant harassing phone calls to a person is pathetic beyond words. Do not harrass someone just because of their gender or race.

That being said, I really disagree with this video in a lot of areas. I think that it is unfair to lump all criticism of Zoe's game in with the ravings of misogynist arseholes and use this to de-legimize ALL criticism.

Something about this whole situation just doesn't pass the smell test. It's just too perfect, too convenient. It slots into the existing "Game Culture is a misogynistic cesspit that needs to be drained" narrative too easily. The truth is that online harassment campaigns are incredibly easy to fake. Particularly in this case as the main instigators are 4chan (which is an anonymous, fast-moving site) and Giantbomb (who appear to have deleted ALL comments critical of Zoe Quinn conveniently removing any evidence).

Of course it is entirely possible that these comments are made by people who dislike Zoe Quinn and express it in unfortunate ways.

Either way, this situation just bears entirely too much similarity to both the Jennifer Hepler and Anita Sarkesian controversies. Both situations were, in my opinion, fake controversies created to cynically manipulate media coverage and silence critics using the looming thread of Misogynist Basement Dwellers.

Instig8ivejounalism explains these situations far better than I ever could.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QLz0CqtMVc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI

I'm posting these because they both seem to follow the same pattern.

1. New thing is announced
2. People look at new thing and some of them don't like it.
3. A few of them point out that the creator of new thing is a woman
4. A few of these people make extremely inappropriate comments regarding the woman's gender
5. Woman's defenders or woman herself cherry picks the nasty comments and attempts to lump all criticism in with the extreme remarks.
6. People who don't like the thing get angry at accusations of Sexism/Racism/Bigotry. Angry people make more inappropriate comments.

End Result: Woman and Thing get lots of free publicity and an easy way to de-legitimize critics.

I mean, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Zoe did attract the ire of some truly vile people, but the similarities cannot be ignored.

 

[Mr. Omega]

Victim blaming is such a funny word. It's like "rape culture", or "white knighting" in that it seems like a term made up and used souly as a "you disagree with me therefore you are part of the problem and your opinion doesn't count and you should be castrated" short hand.

-snip-

If you go to the Bronx after midnight and get mugged, sorry, but it's your fucking fault for being a naive ignorant putz who expects the world to spin the other way just because you couldn't be bothered to take preventative measures, plain and simple. I like musing about how I wish the world should be just as much as everyone else, but you also need to realize and deal with the fact the world as it is doesn't care about you and you need to learn how to survive in it instead of longing for someone else to come along and make it better for you.

Well, let's review one of the two stories that started this. The story that started this episode was caused because someone put a game they made up on Steam Greenlight (Depression Quest) and then a bunch of angry gamers decided to go and harass her and put out her personal information so that they could harass her further.

So, let's hear your great, sage-like wisdom. What was she supposed to do? NOT put her game on Steam Greenlight? Not do her job? Not try and get the game she was working on distributed? CLEARLY since she OBVIOUSLY bought this on herself, there must have been something she could have done to not get a bunch of angry gamers pissed off that doesn't involve not selling the game.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Yeah. See, they want to get a rise out of you, see. And if they don't get one, they'll decide that you're a target and keep trying until they do because you challenge them. They want to get you mad, remember?

Granted, a troll is only human, same as you, and I, but it's not that they can do things we can't, it's what they chose to do.

See, the contradiction arises again. You can't ignore something, yet acknowledge it exists.
Ignoring something means to deny it exists. You can't report something you deny exists.
If you're open to constructive criticism, I'd say more along the lines of "report them, and do not reply to them" or some such. Unfortunately that only works when there's people to make reports to, and even if there are people to make reports to, they might not get as offended as you are, so the troll stands unpunished. With my battlegrounds being in gender issues among gaming, I've seen a lot of abrasive posts that stand.

They work harder, and harder until they're ringing your telephone. It's the thrill of the hunt for some of them. Sure, call the police, but what if the trolls are 12 yearolds? They'll likely just get slapped on the wrist, and the thrill of their lives that they got attention.

Ignoring them just lets them move the lines they have to cross to get to you. When you want gold/silver/what have you, do you stop using your pick just because there's some rock in your way? The rewards are worth it.
think about the scenario of a child calling their parent over, and over, and over again, not because they're hungry, or in danger, they want to make their parent mad. When the parent finally snaps, the reaction is far greater the longer they've been annoyed.
It's the same way with trolls. They're the kid trying to annoy you, the parent, until you snap, and they want you to explode big time.

Don't feed the trolls is a failure because you said it yourself. Haters are going to hate. It doesn't make the trolls go away, it just makes you a bigger challenge, and gets you more attention. You're pretty damned either way unless you luck out, and the only trolls you come up against are not really devoted to trolling.
Statistically it's impossible for everyone to ignore them all on top of that. Sooner or later, a troll will say the right thing to make you mad.
Sooner or later all the people trying to make you mad will become too much. What are you supposed to do? Become a hermit? A person's skin can only get so thick.
Don't feed the trolls sounds great on paper until you're faced with a troll. Especially faced with a smart troll that knows how to skirt the rules, and continually annoy you.

Well, I'm not terribly up to date on the Muslims. Have there been protests against 9/11 from them? Have they showed large scale, or organized outrage against the people that did 9/11?
I'm not saying I blame them all, mind you. I handle people on a case by case basis, frankly.
On that note, when was the last time -gamers- made any sort of organized outrage against the trolls?
Sure it might give the trolls attention, but it'd also show the world that not everyone agrees with them, or are like them. The trolls are winning. People outside looking in think we're all trolls. The trolls are getting attention.

Soccer? When was the last time you protested the hooligans?

Innocent until proven guilty isn't a universal thing. People get hurt by a group, word spreads, the group looks bad. If they rarely, if ever look good, then what the heck are people supposed to think? Humanity is pretty hard wired to think in terms of tribes, grouping people into like people and thinking of people as a group. When that group seems full of assholes, they're a group of assholes until they show otherwise. It's like those alien invasion movies where the aliens see humanity as irredeemable scum until some humans show the aliens that humanity has potential, and aren't all scum. This moral isn't taken for granted. It's not always imprinted upon people. People will get conditioned to see a group of people a certain way. Again, if that certain way is "asshole" then that's the way it is until enough non-assholes show otherwise.

Trollposts should be met with moderation. If that's not possible, then, well, something has to be done. Enough disdain shown towards them until the troll's feelings are hurt enough until they stop might work. We have to show they're not welcome, don't we? Coz until we do, they'll make themselves at home, the way I see it.
People don't have to make time to find these posts, mind you. Just do what needs to be done when you can do it. Is that reasonable?

If you don't give a damn about other people, how can you expect people to give a damn about you? Their problems are problems, and problems are made to be solved. Solutions are easier with many people involved so long as they're on the same page.
But the problem arises again, haters gunna hate. It won't make them all go away either.
Still, it is so terrible to exercise some empathy, and sympathy?
The -real- problem, IMO, is people are afraid to rely on one another, and have to fix their own problems.

the problem with leaving it to the authorities is that people can just make another account. There's no authorities over the internet. Some sites have authorities, but not all of them. Trolls can't be stopped either way. Trolls get banned, they make new accounts, and resume trying to burn the planet for the view.

Real life authorities can't act until certain things happen, and if a troll stays petty enough, real life authority tends not to do a damn thing.
I mean, all these harassing phone calls. Why aren't there followup articles stating these people got put in jail, juvy (likely there, I'd imagine), sued, or otherwise punished? The trolls see the other trolls don't get punished, then copy cat.

Being harsh to the victims? I don't really see that. Being harsh to the victims is trolling them. Especially until they break.
Leaving the victims to their own devices isn't going to help. They're going to reach a breaking point all the faster without support, and frankly I figure that leads to pain, and bloodshed.

So it's a no win situation, isn't it? Haters gunna hate. Still, they're going to make themselves at home until we kick them out, and show them they aren't wanted sufficiently that they go away.

But you cannot do anything else but leaving the victims to their own devices.. in the end NOTHING you do will help them. Infact you adding more drama to the burning pile of tires. The only ones who can take down the fire are the admins and moderators and community managers. Your only contribution has to be and should be to report hatefull behavior.

Do not answer them.

Do not try to debate with them

Do not argue with them

Report them and let the authorities delete their posts/ban them do whatever they see necesary.

That is ALL you should do. EVERYTHING else is aknowledging them, is giving them fuel, is giving them recognition, is giving them what they want.

You say they want to get you mad... and say ignoring them only gets them more invested. But not ignoring them ALSO plays in their hands by giving them EXACTLY what they want.

Never ever engage these haters in conversation. Deal with them quitly and indirectly over the people in charge. Do NOT go into the dragons cave and poke it because you feel wronged... it wont help.

Dealing with trolls is like dealing with childs.. you do not hit the child in the face nor do you discuss endlessly with the little brat. You get his parents involved. If that doesnt help and the brat does something unlawfull you call the proper authorities.. you do not however take action yourselfe to "settle" matters.



As for Jims more or less "guilty by association"

These trollish retards do not play any role in the community i am part of.. i do not associate with people of that kind despite them and me having the same hobby. And thats why i am right to say that these people do not represent me and that i have nothing to do with them.

I see them as borderline criminals who use my hobby as a vice for their hatefull bile all over the place.

They might enjoy their games but that makes them not part of the community i am part of.. because that would mean they actually interact with said community instead of building their own sub communities that revel in their own hatred for everything and everyone.

The best example i can come up with are nazi metal bands.

These people use music to lure in young people to their cause.

Yet no one blames the rest of the music industry and fans of metal music that somehow because they dont actively fight or try to stop these nazi rockbands that somehow they are part of the problem.

When nazi metalheads harass a foreigner are suddenly all metal fans to blame because they dont see it as their problem?

I don't agree with you. Coming to a victim's defense gives them hope. It tells them people care about them. That people are there to support them.

What happens when a person runs out of hope, and doesn't feel like anyone, or enough people cares about them? Especially over long stints of time?

You gotta remember, not every web forum has admins to report to. You gotta remember they may not always help you, even if they exist. Why do you think Youtube's comments section has such a bad rep? That's to say the least. People can offend you without breaking the rules, too.

Sooner or later someone will say something that makes you mad, and drives you to post. It might not be something that breaks the rules, either. They'll force your hand to post something.

What I'm getting at is ignoring them gives them exactly what they want, and not ignoring them gives them exactly what they want.
Ignoring them gives them the thrill of the hunt. They get to hassle you, and hassle you. They think they're going to get rewarded hugely by making you snap.

Giving in to them easily might defuse the situation. They have what they want. They weren't challenged. Their shot at satisfaction is diminished as it wasn't really a challenge.

It's not so much "guilty by association," it's "guilty because you don't do anything against it," IMO. Even a little bit of resistance against the vile hatred could help when it's added up among a dozen other people. And if you fight the hatred, even now and then, then I don't think Jim's talking about you.
That hobby is enough to associate you, unfortunately. You can deny it, and claim there's no ties, but people that aren't you see you as a gamer, same as the troll who happens to be a gamer.

What, exactly, do you do to show the world your views on trolls aside from post it? How are people to recognize the line you've drawn between you, and the trolls? I'm not saying you have to make it clear every second of every day, but I still wouldn't mind an answer.

I think people have, and might still blame Metal, and it's fans for corrupting people. Same as Rock and Roll which was banned in the UK, wasn't it? I'm sure it's been a scapegoat.

"It's not my problem" means you don't care it's happening. That's kind of a problem, isn't it? You let it happen, it happens, the damage is done.
It happens, you don't care, you're not helping gamers look any better, are you? It's not a huge investment to give even the slightest damn, is it? By no means are you obligated to go around finding these incidents, but is it such a problem to occasionally say "This problem sucks! I'm against these people!" but with a bit more words?
Occassional outrage is a good thing because it at the least, can show outsiders that trolls aren't the majority, or at least that there's people that stand against the stereotypes of the gamer troll.

 

[Zetatrain]

The comments are going to be interesting.

*Grabs a bag of popcorn*

That kind of behaviour is toxic, but I am not sure as to how one should fight it, the most I do is say "What the fuck?" and tell my friends to shut up when say stupid misginystic/homophobic, etc. shit, but I feel that it would take more than that to convince the "gaming community at large" to stop acting that way.

I'm just not sure how.

Think of it like this, decades ago it was alright to call any person of color derogatory slurs out in public. Eventually people stopped taking that shit by telling those people to fuck off and eventually no one would dare say those words without serious repercussions.

Problem is that much of the gamer community and the shit that happens within it is represented on the internet. Being on the internet means people are pretty much immune to any consequences that would normally result if they did this shit in person. A couple of angry posts in caps or even being banned from a website is a slap on the wrist compared to coming face to face with an angry person and getting slugged in the face.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Okay, let me put it another way. If it worked, the people being trolled that don't want to be trolled would do it, and they'd be left alone as opposed to receive numerous troll posts, and eventually get rung up IRL. A successful troll is really hard to ignore, though, isn't it? They wouldn't be successful otherwise.

The places I've seen "don't feed the trolls" work is mostly places with an older demographic, comprised of people who are highly knowledgeable about the internet, and have been using it since the USENET days. This is not the way the internet is heading, as most users today are naive and uninformed. This is why places like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc. are so popular.

So, I don't think there's much that can be done. There doesn't seem to be any way that experienced users will be able to have much influence on these matters, due to the massive influx of people who don't know how to deal with this stuff.

Either emotionally destroy them enough that they don't want to troll coz they'll get hurt again...

They'll keep burdening you with their trolling until they add enough to break your back.

These ideas seem creepily close together. No matter how badly someone behaves, "emotionally destroying" anybody is a terrible thing that shouldn't even be contemplated by reasonable people.

And I'd say the fact that internet users getting younger, and younger, and less mature means "don't feed the trolls" is, at least, ineffective advice because few youngsters will take it. The whole thing about not relying on other people drilled into a lot of people's heads makes it really hard for them to report posts, too. Pride demands they handle the situation themselves.

See, the thing trolls don't have is repercussions for being an asshole. They hurt people emotionally, spiritually, mentally. Physically in some unlucky cases. They don't get it back at them, though. that said, what stops them? Eventually growing some empathy?
You think banning stops them? You haven't seen someone banned in a thread then a new account practically takes up where they left off. I've seen it in the Escapist.
Trolls get more pleasure than pain out of it, challenging themselves to make people mad, and generally be assholes. If that were to change, they might not want to keep at trolling.

I'd like to see a better solution. Not feeding them is obviously not working coz they'll do everything to make you feed them sooner or later.