Jimquisition: The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade

[Aardvaarkman]

See, the thing trolls don't have is repercussions for being an asshole. They hurt people emotionally, spiritually, mentally. Physically in some unlucky cases.

I tend to disagree. I think the people who take up trolling as a pastime are probably those who have already been emotionally or physically wounded. I may be wrong, but I suspect it's often the case of the bullied becoming a bully.

I'd like to see a better solution. Not feeding them is obviously not working coz they'll do everything to make you feed them sooner or later.

I can't agree with this, because I don't think anybody is seriously cutting off their food supply. Take this episode of The Jimquisition s a prime example - it's practically fertilizing the bullies with high-grade compost. There's nothing more that trolls love to see their name up in lights. And while The Escapist may not be CNN or Fox News, it's still pretty visible site, and for the trolls, Jim mentioning them on this episode is like all their Christmases coming at once.

The trolls are not starving here any more than I am likely to collapse from lack of turkey tomorrow. Happy Festivus!

 

[Karadalis]

I don't agree with you. Coming to a victim's defense gives them hope. It tells them people care about them. That people are there to support them.

What happens when a person runs out of hope, and doesn't feel like anyone, or enough people cares about them? Especially over long stints of time?

You gotta remember, not every web forum has admins to report to. You gotta remember they may not always help you, even if they exist. Why do you think Youtube's comments section has such a bad rep? That's to say the least. People can offend you without breaking the rules, too.

Sooner or later someone will say something that makes you mad, and drives you to post. It might not be something that breaks the rules, either. They'll force your hand to post something.

What I'm getting at is ignoring them gives them exactly what they want, and not ignoring them gives them exactly what they want.
Ignoring them gives them the thrill of the hunt. They get to hassle you, and hassle you. They think they're going to get rewarded hugely by making you snap.

Giving in to them easily might defuse the situation. They have what they want. They weren't challenged. Their shot at satisfaction is diminished as it wasn't really a challenge.

It's not so much "guilty by association," it's "guilty because you don't do anything against it," IMO. Even a little bit of resistance against the vile hatred could help when it's added up among a dozen other people. And if you fight the hatred, even now and then, then I don't think Jim's talking about you.
That hobby is enough to associate you, unfortunately. You can deny it, and claim there's no ties, but people that aren't you see you as a gamer, same as the troll who happens to be a gamer.

What, exactly, do you do to show the world your views on trolls aside from post it? How are people to recognize the line you've drawn between you, and the trolls? I'm not saying you have to make it clear every second of every day, but I still wouldn't mind an answer.

I think people have, and might still blame Metal, and it's fans for corrupting people. Same as Rock and Roll which was banned in the UK, wasn't it? I'm sure it's been a scapegoat.

"It's not my problem" means you don't care it's happening. That's kind of a problem, isn't it? You let it happen, it happens, the damage is done.
It happens, you don't care, you're not helping gamers look any better, are you? It's not a huge investment to give even the slightest damn, is it? By no means are you obligated to go around finding these incidents, but is it such a problem to occasionally say "This problem sucks! I'm against these people!" but with a bit more words?
Occassional outrage is a good thing because it at the least, can show outsiders that trolls aren't the majority, or at least that there's people that stand against the stereotypes of the gamer troll.

No.. engaging them is giving them what they want. Ignoring them is exactly what makes them loose interest.

Do you actually believe engaging these people is not what they want?

Also comming to a victims aid? That does not work on the internet.

Tell me.. how does this comming to a victims aid look like?

Emotionally destroying people? Like as in.. driving them to suicide? Because that is what emotional destruction leads to.

"Giving a damn" is not going to change ANYTHING especialy if you have no power.

The "community" is not ignoring the problem, it knows it cant change it. The only people who can are the owners of these websites.

What have YOU done to successfully fend of those hatefull people? My guess is either nothing or whatever you did changed absolutely nothing.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

If it worked, everyone would do it, and there would be no trolls.

That's a massive assumption, that everybody is interested in getting rid of trolls. The runaway success of Reality TV is a prime example that people want trolls and like the drama they cause.

If people don't do it, then it's too hard to do, so it's not a perfect solution.

Nobody said it was a perfect solution. But it's a hell of a lot better than what most people seem to be doing, which is feeding the trolls. Do you think that giving them the attention they want is the right solution?

Due to the fact trolling still exists, maybe we need another solution? Even if it's just to supplement "don't feed the trolls."

I think trolling mostly still exists not to people not feeding the trolls, but due to the fact that so many people love feeding them.

Okay, let me put it another way. If it worked, the people being trolled that don't want to be trolled would do it, and they'd be left alone as opposed to receive numerous troll posts, and eventually get rung up IRL. A successful troll is really hard to ignore, though, isn't it? They wouldn't be successful otherwise.

I'm not saying giving them they attention they want is the solution, I'm thinking, maybe, give them the attention they don't want. Either emotionally destroy them enough that they don't want to troll coz they'll get hurt again, or do the far opposite, and calmly defuse them. Neither's really easy, unfortunately. A troll's reason to be is to tick you off. If they want you ticked off, they'll sure as heck try.
Then again, this could be where other people can come in, to defend the victim of trolling with attention the troll doesn't want. Together we stand, divided we fall. Unfortunately this is easier said than done, too. Too many people aren't great at relying on other people, or helping other people.

Okay, there's people who don't want the trolls gone, and they feed the trolls willingly. So how do we make the troll feeders do something they don't want to do? Until we can, we can't get rid of trolls, can we?
It's not entirely better to not feed them because if they want to get your attention, they'll keep upping the ante until you go off, or someone else does. They'll keep burdening you with their trolling until they add enough to break your back.

So basically you suggest we should engage in borderline criminal behavior because they do it too?

"Destroying them emotionally"

Do you know what you are suggesting here?

Do you know what it means to emotionaly destroy someone?

Those are some very extreme words youre using here.

Calmly defusing them sounds much better wich i think i have been suggesting. Letting people whos job it is to deal with this stuff to.. well.. deal with this stuff is much preferable to call for a gamer crusade against internet harassment.

Because unlike such calls for demonstration in real live... on the internet they can just be ignored like these "like this if you are against animal cruelty" BS on facebook.

Or internet pettitions of any kind...

The problem here is anonymity. Aslong as that exist nothing your run of the mill person with no influence can do will have any impact. And honestly i would rather not give up my anonymity just so people can post their private info all over the internet and expect it to not have negative side effects.

Taking a "stance" against harrasment might sound impressive on paper... but it has no effect on the people you take a stance against. Protected by being anonymous they have absolutely no reason to fear such actions.. they have no repercusions on them.

I'll admit it was a bit of an extreme wording, but how else will a troll feel anything that might make the troll stop? I mean stop trolling. Period.

The problem with calmly defusing things that you're calmly defusing a troll. Said troll is trying to stop you from being calm, which makes it hard to calmly defuse anything.

Okay, lets put this a different way. You're here coz Jim trolled you in a sense. You're in this conversation because Jim trolled you, too. You were offended, and failed to not post in this thread, likely because it overrode your ability to ignore something. The other people I'm talking to? Same thing, prolly. Jim said something negative that caused people to post.
So it's not so simple as to ignore it, is it?
Jim's not the only person to do this on the Escapist. A lot of badge hunters do similar in posting about something controversial, and never have their threads locked. And this is by no means confined to the Escapist. many other forums with more, or less moderation have people capable of saying something that overrides a person's ability to ignore it.

Lemme ask you, who's job, exactly, is it to defuse the situation Zoe is in? The Steam admins? They obviously failed hard, didn't they? She was harassed into withdrawing her game before, and is being harassed all over again. Where will the harassment end? And it's not purely steam that she gets harassed on.
Is it Zoe, who's responsible? She has no known administrative power on Steam. She has to ignore phonecalls of people masturbating? Ignore considerable amounts of posts? Puhleeze, people can't even ignore a loose association with the people they loathe, never mind direct, actual insults.

So, who's job is it to police the internet?

 

[Karadalis]

If it worked, everyone would do it, and there would be no trolls.

That's a massive assumption, that everybody is interested in getting rid of trolls. The runaway success of Reality TV is a prime example that people want trolls and like the drama they cause.

If people don't do it, then it's too hard to do, so it's not a perfect solution.

Nobody said it was a perfect solution. But it's a hell of a lot better than what most people seem to be doing, which is feeding the trolls. Do you think that giving them the attention they want is the right solution?

Due to the fact trolling still exists, maybe we need another solution? Even if it's just to supplement "don't feed the trolls."

I think trolling mostly still exists not to people not feeding the trolls, but due to the fact that so many people love feeding them.

Okay, let me put it another way. If it worked, the people being trolled that don't want to be trolled would do it, and they'd be left alone as opposed to receive numerous troll posts, and eventually get rung up IRL. A successful troll is really hard to ignore, though, isn't it? They wouldn't be successful otherwise.

I'm not saying giving them they attention they want is the solution, I'm thinking, maybe, give them the attention they don't want. Either emotionally destroy them enough that they don't want to troll coz they'll get hurt again, or do the far opposite, and calmly defuse them. Neither's really easy, unfortunately. A troll's reason to be is to tick you off. If they want you ticked off, they'll sure as heck try.
Then again, this could be where other people can come in, to defend the victim of trolling with attention the troll doesn't want. Together we stand, divided we fall. Unfortunately this is easier said than done, too. Too many people aren't great at relying on other people, or helping other people.

Okay, there's people who don't want the trolls gone, and they feed the trolls willingly. So how do we make the troll feeders do something they don't want to do? Until we can, we can't get rid of trolls, can we?
It's not entirely better to not feed them because if they want to get your attention, they'll keep upping the ante until you go off, or someone else does. They'll keep burdening you with their trolling until they add enough to break your back.

So basically you suggest we should engage in borderline criminal behavior because they do it too?

"Destroying them emotionally"

Do you know what you are suggesting here?

Do you know what it means to emotionaly destroy someone?

Those are some very extreme words youre using here.

Calmly defusing them sounds much better wich i think i have been suggesting. Letting people whos job it is to deal with this stuff to.. well.. deal with this stuff is much preferable to call for a gamer crusade against internet harassment.

Because unlike such calls for demonstration in real live... on the internet they can just be ignored like these "like this if you are against animal cruelty" BS on facebook.

Or internet pettitions of any kind...

The problem here is anonymity. Aslong as that exist nothing your run of the mill person with no influence can do will have any impact. And honestly i would rather not give up my anonymity just so people can post their private info all over the internet and expect it to not have negative side effects.

Taking a "stance" against harrasment might sound impressive on paper... but it has no effect on the people you take a stance against. Protected by being anonymous they have absolutely no reason to fear such actions.. they have no repercusions on them.

I'll admit it was a bit of an extreme wording, but how else will a troll feel anything that might make the troll stop? I mean stop trolling. Period.

The problem with calmly defusing things that you're calmly defusing a troll. Said troll is trying to stop you from being calm, which makes it hard to calmly defuse anything.

Okay, lets put this a different way. You're here coz Jim trolled you in a sense. You're in this conversation because Jim trolled you, too. You were offended, and failed to not post in this thread, likely because it overrode your ability to ignore something. The other people I'm talking to? Same thing, prolly. Jim said something negative that caused people to post.
So it's not so simple as to ignore it, is it?
Jim's not the only person to do this on the Escapist. A lot of badge hunters do similar in posting about something controversial, and never have their threads locked. And this is by no means confined to the Escapist. many other forums with more, or less moderation have people capable of saying something that overrides a person's ability to ignore it.

Lemme ask you, who's job, exactly, is it to defuse the situation Zoe is in? The Steam admins? They obviously failed hard, didn't they? She was harassed into withdrawing her game before, and is being harassed all over again. Where will the harassment end? And it's not purely steam that she gets harassed on.
Is it Zoe, who's responsible? She has no known administrative power on Steam. She has to ignore phonecalls of people masturbating? Ignore considerable amounts of posts? Puhleeze, people can't even ignore a loose association with the people they loathe, never mind direct, actual insults.

So, who's job is it to police the internet?

Nothing will...

Nothing you nor i can do will stop a hatefull person being hatefull.

See you think these people care about what you or I think in the slightest.

That somehow our words affect them in any way or form

But they dont.. nothing you, nor i, nor anyone else says to them will stop them in their hate rampage.

The only thing that stop a troll from trolling is a ban, and even then they find a way around said ban.

So the only solution is to ignore these trolls and realize that they are a minority that holds no sway in the grander scheme of things.

As for the real live harasment because i find this very important... again it was extremely stupid to post her real life info like her phone number on the net.

Want a male example?

How about tha Blizzard admin who only posted his real name on the net and not hours later had people call him on his phone knowing all kinds of private info about him? He was also harrased.

But instead of people "coming to his aid" they rightly called him off for doing something incredible stupid. Theres being the victim and then there is making yourselfe readily available to becomming a victim.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

See, the thing trolls don't have is repercussions for being an asshole. They hurt people emotionally, spiritually, mentally. Physically in some unlucky cases.

I tend to disagree. I think the people who take up trolling as a pastime are probably those who have already been emotionally or physically wounded. I may be wrong, but I suspect it's often the case of the bullied becoming a bully.

I'd like to see a better solution. Not feeding them is obviously not working coz they'll do everything to make you feed them sooner or later.

I can't agree with this, because I don't think anybody is seriously cutting off their food supply. Take this episode of The Jimquisition s a prime example - it's practically fertilizing the bullies with high-grade compost. There's nothing more that trolls love to see their name up in lights. And while The Escapist may not be CNN or Fox News, it's still pretty visible site, and for the trolls, Jim mentioning them on this episode is like all their Christmases coming at once.

The trolls are not starving here any more than I am likely to collapse from lack of turkey tomorrow. Happy Festivus!

I won't deny that your hypothesis has merit. I can't pretend to know the motives of everyone on the net.

So, here's the crux of the problem. You're basically saying you want Jim to say nothing about a woman being harassed intensely. Is it not important? Is it not worth talking about? Is it not worth knowing about? Should we ignore such intense harassment going on?

Also, happy non specific solstice activities.

 

[Amir Kondori]

This type of harassment is just one of those things I don't understand in the slightest. What motivates the people making the attacks to do it in the first place? What is so threatening to them that they do this? It makes zero sense.

 

[Amir Kondori]

Nothing will...

Nothing you nor i can do will stop a hatefull person being hatefull.

See you think these people care about what you or I think in the slightest.

That somehow our words affect them in any way or form

But they dont.. nothing you, nor i, nor anyone else says to them will stop them in their hate rampage.

The only thing that stop a troll from trolling is a ban, and even then they find a way around said ban.

So the only solution is to ignore these trolls and realize that they are a minority that holds no sway in the grander scheme of things.

As for the real live harasment... again it was extremely stupid to post her real life info like her phone number on the net.

Want a male example?

How about tha Blizzard admin who only posted his real name on the net and not hours later had people call him on his phone knowing all kinds of private info about him? He was also harrased.

But instead of people "coming to his aid" they rightly called him off for doing something incredible stupid. Theres being the victim and then there is making yourselfe readily available to becomming a victim.

That Blizzard example is actually a good example but not in the way you think. He posted his real name saying that just a name alone was not enough to make you unsafe. Then all of his personal info was found and he was called. In his case the people were very polite about it and said they just wanted to show why real names were a bad idea.

So you are kind of making the case FOR the existence of a double standard between male and female developers. That guy was not harassed.

 

[Snake40000]

What games where being played in the background?

 

[Karadalis]

Nothing will...

Nothing you nor i can do will stop a hatefull person being hatefull.

See you think these people care about what you or I think in the slightest.

That somehow our words affect them in any way or form

But they dont.. nothing you, nor i, nor anyone else says to them will stop them in their hate rampage.

The only thing that stop a troll from trolling is a ban, and even then they find a way around said ban.

So the only solution is to ignore these trolls and realize that they are a minority that holds no sway in the grander scheme of things.

As for the real live harasment... again it was extremely stupid to post her real life info like her phone number on the net.

Want a male example?

How about tha Blizzard admin who only posted his real name on the net and not hours later had people call him on his phone knowing all kinds of private info about him? He was also harrased.

But instead of people "coming to his aid" they rightly called him off for doing something incredible stupid. Theres being the victim and then there is making yourselfe readily available to becomming a victim.

That Blizzard example is actually a good example but not in the way you think. He posted his real name saying that just a name alone was not enough to make you unsafe. Then all of his personal info was found and he was called. In his case the people were very polite about it and said they just wanted to show why real names were a bad idea.

So you are kind of making the case FOR the existence of a double standard between male and female developers. That guy was not harassed.

Oh the example i wanted to take out of it is that posting your private info.. any private info is incredible stupid on the net.

And that it allways leads to very very bad stuff no matter the gender.

Also not harassed? It could and most likely would have gone bad very very fast if they hadnt removed the full name emidiantly and the people who had found out all that info had belonged to the more... hatefull demographic of the internet.

He was lucky... nothing more nothing less.

People actually told him where his kids go to school.. polite or not that is incredibly alarming and shows that no matter your gender, posting your info on the net is an invitation to bad things.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

So, here's the crux of the problem. You're basically saying you want Jim to say nothing about a woman being harassed intensely. Is it not important? Is it not worth talking about? Is it not worth knowing about? Should we ignore such intense harassment going on?

No, I'm not saying that. My problem is the inflammatory way that Jim said it, impugning the gaming community as a whole for this happening. You said yourself in an earlier post that Jim was kind of trolling us. That's behavior I have a problem with, just like I have a problem with the misogynist trolls and abusers. He doesn't seem to be honestly engaging us here.

He could easily report on this without blaming everybody else in the gaming community. This is one of the reasons I almost never play multiplayer games - because there are so many jerkwads out there who are abusive towards others on multiplayer chat. I make efforts to isolate myself from such people, because I've had enough abuse in my life. I miss out on many gaming experiences because I choose to do this. So, it isn't exactly pleasant when it's implied that I'm a jerkwad by association, because some troll did something I had nothing to do with. Or that I should shut up for some reason.

As for the idea that I should ignore Jim on the "don't feed the trolls" principle - I think that Jim is an intelligent guy, and he's not deliberately trying to troll. His videos are often very enjoyable. I don't think he's beyond redemption, which is why I think i's worthwhile addressing him here. I've always been quite supportive of Jim, but this episode is pretty on-the-nose. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but his initial forum replies (and later lack of replies) diminish my respect for him.

If he's just going to go into defensive mode, and not learn anything from his critics here, then I think that will be sad for everybody. I'm all for sexual equality and fighting online abuse - I just think he chose a really counter-productive way to go about it. I know that being "edgy" is his schtick, but if he's unable to respond meaningfully to constructive criticism, then I might have to resign as a fan of his show.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I don't agree with you. Coming to a victim's defense gives them hope. It tells them people care about them. That people are there to support them.

What happens when a person runs out of hope, and doesn't feel like anyone, or enough people cares about them? Especially over long stints of time?

You gotta remember, not every web forum has admins to report to. You gotta remember they may not always help you, even if they exist. Why do you think Youtube's comments section has such a bad rep? That's to say the least. People can offend you without breaking the rules, too.

Sooner or later someone will say something that makes you mad, and drives you to post. It might not be something that breaks the rules, either. They'll force your hand to post something.

What I'm getting at is ignoring them gives them exactly what they want, and not ignoring them gives them exactly what they want.
Ignoring them gives them the thrill of the hunt. They get to hassle you, and hassle you. They think they're going to get rewarded hugely by making you snap.

Giving in to them easily might defuse the situation. They have what they want. They weren't challenged. Their shot at satisfaction is diminished as it wasn't really a challenge.

It's not so much "guilty by association," it's "guilty because you don't do anything against it," IMO. Even a little bit of resistance against the vile hatred could help when it's added up among a dozen other people. And if you fight the hatred, even now and then, then I don't think Jim's talking about you.
That hobby is enough to associate you, unfortunately. You can deny it, and claim there's no ties, but people that aren't you see you as a gamer, same as the troll who happens to be a gamer.

What, exactly, do you do to show the world your views on trolls aside from post it? How are people to recognize the line you've drawn between you, and the trolls? I'm not saying you have to make it clear every second of every day, but I still wouldn't mind an answer.

I think people have, and might still blame Metal, and it's fans for corrupting people. Same as Rock and Roll which was banned in the UK, wasn't it? I'm sure it's been a scapegoat.

"It's not my problem" means you don't care it's happening. That's kind of a problem, isn't it? You let it happen, it happens, the damage is done.
It happens, you don't care, you're not helping gamers look any better, are you? It's not a huge investment to give even the slightest damn, is it? By no means are you obligated to go around finding these incidents, but is it such a problem to occasionally say "This problem sucks! I'm against these people!" but with a bit more words?
Occassional outrage is a good thing because it at the least, can show outsiders that trolls aren't the majority, or at least that there's people that stand against the stereotypes of the gamer troll.

No.. engaging them is giving them what they want. Ignoring them is exactly what makes them loose interest.

Do you actually believe engaging these people is not what they want?

Also comming to a victims aid? That does not work on the internet.

Tell me.. how does this comming to a victims aid look like?

Emotionally destroying people? Like as in.. driving them to suicide? Because that is what emotional destruction leads to.

"Giving a damn" is not going to change ANYTHING especialy if you have no power.

The "community" is not ignoring the problem, it knows it cant change it. The only people who can are the owners of these websites.

What have YOU done to successfully fend of those hatefull people? My guess is either nothing or whatever you did changed absolutely nothing.

Engage on your terms. Not theirs. Make them regret trolling somehow, or another. Ignoring them just makes them invest in you as they try and make you mad. It's like sticking quarters into a slot machine. The more they try to make you mad, the more they want a payoff.

Coming to people's aid on the internet absolutely works. If you post an idea you like, and someone pops on, and says it's a great idea, do you feel better than if it were ignored or insulted? If your idea leads to a civil conversations, do you not feel better than if it were ignored, or insulted?
If you get into a debate, and someone suddenly takes your side, and helps you get your point across in such a way it can't be refuted, don't you feel good?

What does coming to a person's aid look like? It looks like people taking your side. It doesn't have to be some grand show. It can be as simple as telling the victim that how they're being treated is crap. You don't even have to talk to them anymore afterwards. Heck, you don't even have to say it to them directly. Just show your support in not liking the way they were treated. Kinda bare minimum there, IMO.

So, what the heck do you think the trolls are trying to do to Zoe, here? Extensively harassing her? Basically giving some of the most ominous of warnings against other female developers?
Maybe I worded "emotionally destroy" too strongly. How about hurt their feelings a lot?

Believe me, you have power. It might not be a lot, but being there for someone can mean a lot, you know? Voicing your support can mean something. You might not have the power to fight trolls as much as you like, but you have the power to support the person being trolled to make the situation better.
Of course, if you insulted the hell out of a troll in the name of the victim, maybe in a funny way, the victim might feel better, too.

The community ignoring the problem is exactly what the "don't feed the trolls" crowd seems to be wanting, precisely. Because talking about the problem means giving the trolls what they want. If the problem's not talked about, then it's kinda ignored, isn't it? Silence is what the trolls want, too. All the people that complain every time someone talks about a topic like this? Do you want them to win so the issue is silenced while it still exists?
The problem won't be fixed if we don't try to fix it. The trolls will love that. It means they get to do what ever the hell they want so long as they don't break the rules, or laws, and that can be a lot.

I've voiced my disgust over the matter, haven't I? Pretty sure I have. I'd say it's something to set myself apart from the trolls. It might not be the most powerful move in the universe, but it's something. Did it change anything? Beats me. I added something, though.

 

[Karadalis]

I don't agree with you. Coming to a victim's defense gives them hope. It tells them people care about them. That people are there to support them.

What happens when a person runs out of hope, and doesn't feel like anyone, or enough people cares about them? Especially over long stints of time?

You gotta remember, not every web forum has admins to report to. You gotta remember they may not always help you, even if they exist. Why do you think Youtube's comments section has such a bad rep? That's to say the least. People can offend you without breaking the rules, too.

Sooner or later someone will say something that makes you mad, and drives you to post. It might not be something that breaks the rules, either. They'll force your hand to post something.

What I'm getting at is ignoring them gives them exactly what they want, and not ignoring them gives them exactly what they want.
Ignoring them gives them the thrill of the hunt. They get to hassle you, and hassle you. They think they're going to get rewarded hugely by making you snap.

Giving in to them easily might defuse the situation. They have what they want. They weren't challenged. Their shot at satisfaction is diminished as it wasn't really a challenge.

It's not so much "guilty by association," it's "guilty because you don't do anything against it," IMO. Even a little bit of resistance against the vile hatred could help when it's added up among a dozen other people. And if you fight the hatred, even now and then, then I don't think Jim's talking about you.
That hobby is enough to associate you, unfortunately. You can deny it, and claim there's no ties, but people that aren't you see you as a gamer, same as the troll who happens to be a gamer.

What, exactly, do you do to show the world your views on trolls aside from post it? How are people to recognize the line you've drawn between you, and the trolls? I'm not saying you have to make it clear every second of every day, but I still wouldn't mind an answer.

I think people have, and might still blame Metal, and it's fans for corrupting people. Same as Rock and Roll which was banned in the UK, wasn't it? I'm sure it's been a scapegoat.

"It's not my problem" means you don't care it's happening. That's kind of a problem, isn't it? You let it happen, it happens, the damage is done.
It happens, you don't care, you're not helping gamers look any better, are you? It's not a huge investment to give even the slightest damn, is it? By no means are you obligated to go around finding these incidents, but is it such a problem to occasionally say "This problem sucks! I'm against these people!" but with a bit more words?
Occassional outrage is a good thing because it at the least, can show outsiders that trolls aren't the majority, or at least that there's people that stand against the stereotypes of the gamer troll.

No.. engaging them is giving them what they want. Ignoring them is exactly what makes them loose interest.

Do you actually believe engaging these people is not what they want?

Also comming to a victims aid? That does not work on the internet.

Tell me.. how does this comming to a victims aid look like?

Emotionally destroying people? Like as in.. driving them to suicide? Because that is what emotional destruction leads to.

"Giving a damn" is not going to change ANYTHING especialy if you have no power.

The "community" is not ignoring the problem, it knows it cant change it. The only people who can are the owners of these websites.

What have YOU done to successfully fend of those hatefull people? My guess is either nothing or whatever you did changed absolutely nothing.

Engage on your terms. Not theirs. Make them regret trolling somehow, or another. Ignoring them just makes them invest in you as they try and make you mad. It's like sticking quarters into a slot machine. The more they try to make you mad, the more they want a payoff.

Coming to people's aid on the internet absolutely works. If you post an idea you like, and someone pops on, and says it's a great idea, do you feel better than if it were ignored or insulted? If your idea leads to a civil conversations, do you not feel better than if it were ignored, or insulted?
If you get into a debate, and someone suddenly takes your side, and helps you get your point across in such a way it can't be refuted, don't you feel good?

What does coming to a person's aid look like? It looks like people taking your side. It doesn't have to be some grand show. It can be as simple as telling the victim that how they're being treated is crap. You don't even have to talk to them anymore afterwards. Heck, you don't even have to say it to them directly. Just show your support in not liking the way they were treated. Kinda bare minimum there, IMO.

So, what the heck do you think the trolls are trying to do to Zoe, here? Extensively harassing her? Basically giving some of the most ominous of warnings against other female developers?
Maybe I worded "emotionally destroy" too strongly. How about hurt their feelings a lot?

Believe me, you have power. It might not be a lot, but being there for someone can mean a lot, you know? Voicing your support can mean something. You might not have the power to fight trolls as much as you like, but you have the power to support the person being trolled to make the situation better.
Of course, if you insulted the hell out of a troll in the name of the victim, maybe in a funny way, the victim might feel better, too.

The community ignoring the problem is exactly what the "don't feed the trolls" crowd seems to be wanting, precisely. Because talking about the problem means giving the trolls what they want. If the problem's not talked about, then it's kinda ignored, isn't it? Silence is what the trolls want, too. All the people that complain every time someone talks about a topic like this? Do you want them to win so the issue is silenced while it still exists?
The problem won't be fixed if we don't try to fix it. The trolls will love that. It means they get to do what ever the hell they want so long as they don't break the rules, or laws, and that can be a lot.

I've voiced my disgust over the matter, haven't I? Pretty sure I have. I'd say it's something to set myself apart from the trolls. It might not be the most powerful move in the universe, but it's something. Did it change anything? Beats me. I added something, though.

And again youre thinking you can actually engage them on "your terms"

Thing is you cant. These are called anonymous for a reason.

How do you want to engage someone on your terms when you only have a nickname and some hatefull bile they spouted on some website to work with?

You are asking the impossible here. The community can do jack shit about the whole situation no matter if they care or not.

Why is this concept so hard to understand? We can do nothing of consequence to these people yet you still ask us to do "something" even thought it seems you have no clue yourselfe what that something is besides "destroying" people.

These people exist no matter if you like it or not and nothing you nor i do changes that. Taking away their soapboxes and opportunities to spread their harmfull bile is the only method that will ever work.

Theres a word these trolls use for people like you... its "lolcow" because you think you can win against them in their own game when the game starts with "you lose" automatically no matter how much you struggle.

To engage such persons is allready admitting defeat.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

So, here's the crux of the problem. You're basically saying you want Jim to say nothing about a woman being harassed intensely. Is it not important? Is it not worth talking about? Is it not worth knowing about? Should we ignore such intense harassment going on?

No, I'm not saying that. My problem is the inflammatory way that Jim said it, impugning the gaming community as a whole for this happening. You said yourself in an earlier post that Jim was kind of trolling us. That's behavior I have a problem with, just like I have a problem with the misogynist trolls and abusers. He doesn't seem to be honestly engaging us here.

He could easily report on this without blaming everybody else in the gaming community. This is one of the reasons I almost never play multiplayer games - because there are so many jerkwads out there who are abusive towards others on multiplayer chat. I make efforts to isolate myself from such people, because I've had enough abuse in my life. I miss out on many gaming experiences because I choose to do this. So, it isn't exactly pleasant when it's implied that I'm a jerkwad by association, because some troll did something I had nothing to do with. Or that I should shut up for some reason.

As for the idea that I should ignore Jim on the "don't feed the trolls" principle - I think that Jim is an intelligent guy, and he's not deliberately trying to troll. His videos are often very enjoyable. I don't think he's beyond redemption, which is why I think i's worthwhile addressing him here. I've always been quite supportive of Jim, but this episode is pretty on-the-nose. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but his initial forum replies (and later lack of replies) diminish my respect for him.

If he's just going to go into defensive mode, and not learn anything from his critics here, then I think that will be sad for everybody. I'm all for sexual equality and fighting online abuse - I just think he chose a really counter-productive way to go about it. I know that being "edgy" is his schtick, but if he's unable to respond meaningfully to constructive criticism, then I might have to resign as a fan of his show.

I still gotta ask, if you don't feel an attachment to these assholes Jim talks about, and you speak out against them, then what's the problem? You're not one of the assholes Jim's talking about, IMO.

Maybe if he blamed just the people harassing her, it wouldn't have any impact? Or less impact? Maybe he's trying to stir people into action, and make them think about what it is they're doing in the grand scheme of things? Maybe he's showing us how the non-gamer world sees us because, really, what the hell have we done to show we aren't like the trolls to the outsiders?

I understand where you're coming from in multiplayer games. I generally only co-op at most.

I don't think Jim's telling you to shut up. Like I said I think he wants people to get moved into action, and speak out.

You think, maybe, Jim's asleep at this hour (Infact I should be asleep at this hour! ), thus unable to respond? He does wear many hats that no doubt keeps him busy with poems, movie defense force, and jimquisition, and reviews, and so forth, too.

 

[Karadalis]

Because jim blames me for giving gaming a bad name and suggests that by not caring for them i support them and in term are no better then them.

And its not only jim who does that, all the "garme juornalists" out there jump onto the bandwagon and point fingers at us.. wich in term gets eaten up by the mainstream media to showcase that all gamers are degenerate hatefull basement dwellers.

But by not caring for them or their opinions i am actually fighting them much more sucessfull then he, you or anyone else that believes you can engage and win against these people are.

You call these monsters into existance by constantly aknowledging them and their opinions and trying to refute the unrefutable. You wont change their believes, you wont hurt their feelings and you wont make them go away by giving them any form of attention.

And no... trolls lose interest in a "victim" that doesnt fight back. That is why they stick to people they know will fight back.

 

[Adventurer2626]

Almost calling me out on this video. I tend to avoid conflict like the plague so I suppose I'm among the "head in the sand" population of forum goers that forcibly shut out the two people arguing next to him and stare at the tv screen/monitor. I never intrude into "hot" discussions and sometimes am overly diplomatic with my stances. I tend to avoid "picking a side" because I don't believe in sides, teams or labels. I think in terms of compromising and agreeing on the best fit solution or rule for a situation and reevaluating that when it no longer fits well. Mostly what I see from debaters is defending one particular idea and actively attacking all others. They guilt neutral parties and smaller parties that are minorities with no chance of "winning" into joining them because "the other side is worse and if you don't support us, you support them." So yes, I am calling party-line towers (pronounced toe-ers) Siths. Thinking on this different wavelength, I find many discussions abysmally dismaying with no chance of compromise where the most extreme view with the most supporters wins. Or no one wins because an agreement is never reached and everyone gives up. It's a wonder we ever get anything done.

I realize this doesn't apply to every situation or literally nothing would ever get done, but this seems to be one of the afflicted issues. I think I'm just paranoid of the rampant, juvenile, misdirected label flinging that occurs in every discussion from forums to senate floors. If you defend someone, you're a "white knight" and if you try to debate the merits of someone's issue, you're "flaming/trolling." Most of the time the assertion is neither relevant nor true. True "white knights" look for any excuse to defend someone else and often add fuel to the fire by engaging the "flamers/trolls" whose only mission in life to obtain enjoyment from "getting a rise" out of others. People understand that that situation is bad, hence the bad connotations of those words. They just don't understand that they are doing them.

Now to say something relevant to the issue at hand...respect female gamers more? I honestly don't know what I could say to convince males that think "girls are dumb and deserve it when they get victimized" otherwise. It's like arguing with a crazy person that takes for granted that the sky is neon green. They just can't process that it's blue and sometimes black. The only way to get them to capitulate is to isolate them from their supporters and defeat them with overwhelming numbers. It's like when people start arguing they shut off their reason centers and defend their stance like their survival depends on it.

I guess that's what I get for being a lurker. I get jaded by watching the same play acted time and again. Sorry for being a might cranky but it gets annoying after a while to watch unreasonable people be unreasonable. I guess I'll stick with my policy of enthusiastic agreement with people that respect others and scowling in the general direction of dehumanizers.

 

[Amir Kondori]

Nothing will...

Nothing you nor i can do will stop a hatefull person being hatefull.

See you think these people care about what you or I think in the slightest.

That somehow our words affect them in any way or form

But they dont.. nothing you, nor i, nor anyone else says to them will stop them in their hate rampage.

The only thing that stop a troll from trolling is a ban, and even then they find a way around said ban.

So the only solution is to ignore these trolls and realize that they are a minority that holds no sway in the grander scheme of things.

As for the real live harasment... again it was extremely stupid to post her real life info like her phone number on the net.

Want a male example?

How about tha Blizzard admin who only posted his real name on the net and not hours later had people call him on his phone knowing all kinds of private info about him? He was also harrased.

But instead of people "coming to his aid" they rightly called him off for doing something incredible stupid. Theres being the victim and then there is making yourselfe readily available to becomming a victim.

That Blizzard example is actually a good example but not in the way you think. He posted his real name saying that just a name alone was not enough to make you unsafe. Then all of his personal info was found and he was called. In his case the people were very polite about it and said they just wanted to show why real names were a bad idea.

So you are kind of making the case FOR the existence of a double standard between male and female developers. That guy was not harassed.

Oh the example i wanted to take out of it is that posting your private info.. any private info is incredible stupid on the net.

And that it allways leads to very very bad stuff no matter the gender.

Also not harassed? It could and most likely would have gone bad very very fast if they hadnt removed the full name emidiantly and the people who had found out all that info had belonged to the more... hatefull demographic of the internet.

He was lucky... nothing more nothing less.

People actually told him where his kids go to school.. polite or not that is incredibly alarming and shows that no matter your gender, posting your info on the net is an invitation to bad things.

And... so what? Are you implying that the harassment is her fault because people were able to find her info? A lot of professionals have their info posted online so others can get in touch with them, my info is online for business purposes. This kind of comment reeks of "it is her fault" bullshit. If that is not what you mean then my apologies but it gets old reading this kind of blame the victim stuff.

 

[Karadalis]

Nothing will...

Nothing you nor i can do will stop a hatefull person being hatefull.

See you think these people care about what you or I think in the slightest.

That somehow our words affect them in any way or form

But they dont.. nothing you, nor i, nor anyone else says to them will stop them in their hate rampage.

The only thing that stop a troll from trolling is a ban, and even then they find a way around said ban.

So the only solution is to ignore these trolls and realize that they are a minority that holds no sway in the grander scheme of things.

As for the real live harasment... again it was extremely stupid to post her real life info like her phone number on the net.

Want a male example?

How about tha Blizzard admin who only posted his real name on the net and not hours later had people call him on his phone knowing all kinds of private info about him? He was also harrased.

But instead of people "coming to his aid" they rightly called him off for doing something incredible stupid. Theres being the victim and then there is making yourselfe readily available to becomming a victim.

That Blizzard example is actually a good example but not in the way you think. He posted his real name saying that just a name alone was not enough to make you unsafe. Then all of his personal info was found and he was called. In his case the people were very polite about it and said they just wanted to show why real names were a bad idea.

So you are kind of making the case FOR the existence of a double standard between male and female developers. That guy was not harassed.

Oh the example i wanted to take out of it is that posting your private info.. any private info is incredible stupid on the net.

And that it allways leads to very very bad stuff no matter the gender.

Also not harassed? It could and most likely would have gone bad very very fast if they hadnt removed the full name emidiantly and the people who had found out all that info had belonged to the more... hatefull demographic of the internet.

He was lucky... nothing more nothing less.

People actually told him where his kids go to school.. polite or not that is incredibly alarming and shows that no matter your gender, posting your info on the net is an invitation to bad things.

And... so what? Are you implying that the harassment is her fault because people were able to find her info? A lot of professionals have their info posted online so others can get in touch with them, my info is online for business purposes. This kind of comment reeks of "it is her fault" bullshit. If that is not what you mean then my apologies but it gets old reading this kind of blame the victim stuff.

Fault?

You know what.. yes... yes it is her fault that she was called on her private phone and gotten creepy calls.

In this entire situation that is the only point where she is at fault herselfe for what happened.

And you know why this is her fault? Because she wouldnt have been called on her phone by these people if they didnt had her private phone number!

And you are just as foolish to have your private information readily available to everyone on the internet. Usually businesses have business numbers that only connect to business phones. She however gave away her PRIVATE mobile number from what i understood.

She is NOT at fault for the existance of those people or their hate towards her. She is however responsible for her own behavior.

Sorry if that doesnt sit with your perfect view of the world but if you do stupid things then you only have to blame yourselfe.

Does that mean i support the hate? No i dont, but i also dont feel pitty for someone who does something stupid and then gets burned due to their own stupidity.

The people that utter death threats or sexually harass her should be persecuted however that is no reason to somehow apologize her own naivity.

If i tell people not to come into my garden to try to pet the dog because he might bite is it still my dog whos to blame? Or rather the idiot who ignored my warning, climbed over my fence, came into my garden and tried to pet my dog that i told him not to pet?

 

[Bruce]

I am seeing a lot of people saying Jim said you have to act - and that's not actually what he said. What he said is that if you choose not to act on the issue - which is 100% your right - don't then go online and whine at those who do.

If a topic doesn't interest you - don't post on it. You don't have to give your two cents, and doing so just makes you look bad.

And this covers more than feminism really, if all you have to contribute to any discussion about bad behaviour is how you aren't in the class being criticised, or how bored you are of the discussion, or how "it is the Internet" or something like that, it just means you are really part of the problem.

You don't have to participate in the discussion, but that you choose to, and you do so in a manner which is more about dismissing complaints rather than dealing with them, shows you are part of the issue that is being complained about.

Isn't this line of "you should just shut the fuck up then" thinking identical with what Jim says is wrong about what he calls "victim blaming"? If you just sit there and claim there is only one possible rationale to this situation then the hope that any kind of understanding can be reached to help do away with this kind of septic behavior, goes right out the window.

Not really. Because you are not actually presenting a rationale for the situation, or any kind of understanding. In real terms all you end up doing is communicating that you are a part of the issue. You may not mean to do that, but it is the end result.

It's very easy when these things happen to just pick up a pitchfork and join in screaming hysterically with the rest of the internet lynch mob. It's a bit harder to look at the situation rationally and try to find solutions.

Except you are not really doing that, you are engaging in the situation emotionally - with the fear that you are the one the "pitchforks" are aimed at.

The thing about looking at the situation rationally and trying to find solutions is you have to actually listen to what is being said, separate out the bullshit and recognise that the emotions of other people are valid. You cannot simply dismiss information by proclaiming it is being presented for the clicks, or being 'over-emotional' in its presentation.

Otherwise the "solutions" you end up proposing aren't really solutions, they are just trite means of avoiding the issue.

]If no one tries to understand who both sides of this issue are, what makes them tick, what is their motivation, then nothing about this situation is ever going to change. It just becomes yet another combination internet pity party and flame bait fest. Which I'm sure suits journalists just fine as it sure as hell ups the post count. But I have to ask, does it help solve a fucking thing? Did this do anything to help people like Zoe Quinn be safer from douche baggery on the internet?

And thus you demonstrate exactly what I mean by the idea that you are not actually engaging the issue rationally. There are things that can be done to make the situation better - but before we can get to that there needs to be an acknowledgement of what the situation actually is.

We could, I think at this point, start talking about real solutions. The trouble is, first we need to recognise what the problem really is.

Personally I think the problem is more to do with trolling than sexism at this point. While sexism is itself a major issue, solving it will first require dealing with the idiots whose response to anything they don't like is to try and destroy the people responsible for it.

So long as we have trolls driving developers out of the business for whatever reason, we can't really have the discussion on pretty much anything else.

We need to foil those trolls.

To that end, as a start, how about we ask The Escapist, which I think is an organisation we all reasonably trust, to set up a fund gamers can donate to where we send people who are targeted for online hate this way flowers?

It won't stop the trolls, Christians counter-protesting the Westborough Baptist Church hasn't stopped them, but it may just communicate in a real way that we disagree with the hate.