JRPGs And Convoluted Access To Their Secret Content

[Xprimentyl]

My experience with JRPGs is admittedly very limited; it?s pretty much just a couple playthroughs of Shining Forces I and II years ago on the Genesis, a dozen playthroughs of FF VIII between PC and PS3, one of FF XIII on Xbox 360 and flings with a handful of others last gen that were so brief, I can?t tell you their names. But one thing I noticed was pretty consistent in my exposure was how convoluted the secrets within can be. In Western games, secrets are pretty dumbed down; they tend to be sparse and usually just hidden rooms/items/characters usually found by following blatant trails of bread crumbs or exploring off the beaten path until you find certain areas of implicit significance. But in JRPGs, their secrets are so shrouded in ambiguity, finding them on your own without a guide is nigh unto impossible. Examples, finding GFs like Doomtrain, Tonberry King and basically ALL the non-junctionable GFs in FF VIII, Shining Force II hides the material necessary to craft the best weapons in the game in completely random, inconspicuous locations, etc.

My question is why is this? Is there perhaps a loss in translation or maybe some things (i.e.: clues) omitted from the Japanese version to the American ones? I just think it?s strange that they hide such significant content in ways you basically NEED to be told how to access it, especially in the days before the Internet when it wasn?t as simple as ?Googling? the answer or jumping into a forum and having someone tell you.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Harder to get, more rewarding when obtained. Pretty simple really. Difference between the instant gratification of goin down a side road and finding a hidden chest or doing a long quest or deciphering an arcane puzzle. How much you put into it imbues it with meaning and lends games that old style feeling bsck before the internet where you would have rumors about stuff and not know everything for sure.


Jrpgs have a lot of the former type of thing too though, just not only that. Variety is good afrer all.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

Personally, I like it when games do that. I like going, "Huh, what does that mean?" and then slowly piecing the puzzle together. Of course, I can never figure them out on my own and end up looking them up, but to me, having a secret buried so deep in the world that you have to run all over the world and do things you never even though of only adds to the experience. I hate it when it's just as simple as, "Turn left here, move this painting, find secret room, new weapon." I like the feeling of adventure, and mini-stories, that come with Japanese side quests.

And to be fair, the hints are in the game. They're just so small that a lot of people don't put them together. For example, Doomtrain. You find magazines that hint at his existence, and while I don't remember everything, I remember one of them mentioning that the guy who saw Doomtrain was building a fence made out of steel pipes. That's part of the clue on how to get him: steel pipes are needed.

 

[Xprimentyl]

To be clear, I?m not saying one or the other way is better, neither do I dislike one over the other; I?m just asking why. It sounds like it might be a cultural thing; just seems a strange choice to make what?s sometimes the best content of the game so easily missable (ENTIRELY missable in several cases) without guides.

Back to my example of the Mithril in Shining Force II: The first time I played it, I was 15 and just incidentally found one of the less completely hidden piles of Mithril early in the game. I had no idea what it was; I couldn?t ?use? it on anyone, so it just sat in one of my inventory slots for the next couple of weeks as I progressed in the game until I came to the Dwarven Village and the blacksmith asked me about Mithril weapons. I had him make me a sword for my main character and beat the game. Later, I looked up online (dial-up at the library FTW) only to find there were, in fact, 15 piles of Mithril throughout the game as well as multiple weapons to be made for each class! I was like ?what the hell? How did I play that game for weeks and only find ONE pile of the material necessary to make the best weapons in the game??? Then there was FF VIII which still holds a ton of secrets (many based on random drops and encounters) I?ve never had the patience to try and uncover. I really was just asking if there was a specific, identifiable reason for such secrecy around the best stuff.

 

[RaikuFA]

I assume to encourage exploration. That's part of what makes JRPG's so great.

 

[Cycloptomese]

Whenever someone brings up this topic, my mind goes straight to FFXII and the Zodiac Spear. In order to get the Zodiac Spear, the strongest weapon in the game, there are certain chests that you must not open. Opening any of these four chests will cause the Zodiac Spear to not appear in the game at all. The chests aren't exactly out of the way, either. It brings my piss to a boil. There's no way anyone gets the Zodiac Spear without following a strategy guide verbatim.

 

[CaitSeith]

My experience with JRPGs is admittedly very limited; it?s pretty much just a couple playthroughs of Shining Forces I and II years ago on the Genesis, a dozen playthroughs of FF VIII between PC and PS3, one of FF XIII on Xbox 360 and flings with a handful of others last gen that were so brief, I can?t tell you their names. But one thing I noticed was pretty consistent in my exposure was how convoluted the secrets within can be. In Western games, secrets are pretty dumbed down; they tend to be sparse and usually just hidden rooms/items/characters usually found by following blatant trails of bread crumbs or exploring off the beaten path until you find certain areas of implicit significance. But in JRPGs, their secrets are so shrouded in ambiguity, finding them on your own without a guide is nigh unto impossible. Examples, finding GFs like Doomtrain, Tonberry King and basically ALL the non-junctionable GFs in FF VIII, Shining Force II hides the material necessary to craft the best weapons in the game in completely random, inconspicuous locations, etc.

My question is why is this? Is there perhaps a loss in translation or maybe some things (i.e.: clues) omitted from the Japanese version to the American ones? I just think it?s strange that they hide such significant content in ways you basically NEED to be told how to access it, especially in the days before the Internet when it wasn?t as simple as ?Googling? the answer or jumping into a forum and having someone tell you.

Two theories:

1. As reward for players who go the extra mile in thoroughly exploring the game. Besides, it isn't like those players got the reward and forgot about it. Before Google, those players would reveal the secret to their friends (or give them hints).

2. To increase sales of videogame magazines. Before Google, one of the players' main method to find secrets was by reading guides in game magazines.

 

[NPC009]

Are you sure this is something only JRPGs do? It sounds to me like these are cases of old-fashioned game design. Platformers, adventure games - I've seen this type of obtuse(/sadistic?) game design everywhere. Back in the 80s and early 90s, it was more or less accepted that players would play through the game multiple times, often failing the first few times. My guess is that some of the older designers feel some nostalgia towards this and keep putting this kind of stuff in their games.

 

[go-10]

Whenever someone brings up this topic, my mind goes straight to FFXII and the Zodiac Spear. In order to get the Zodiac Spear, the strongest weapon in the game, there are certain chests that you must not open. Opening any of these four chests will cause the Zodiac Spear to not appear in the game at all. The chests aren't exactly out of the way, either. It brings my piss to a boil. There's no way anyone gets the Zodiac Spear without following a strategy guide verbatim.

YES! this so much, I hated going for the damn thing, it was insanely cool when I got it I felt extremely satisfied with it so I guess there's some logic to the risk reward thing...

Also there's FF X dodging 100 lightning bolts that was just AWFUL and to a lesser extent there's FF X-2's nearly endless dungeon for catnip or whatever it was called to do maximum damage with Trigger Happy skill... so not all JRPGs handle this "feature" well but the ones that do, do make it feel rewarding.

 

[Xprimentyl]

2. To increase sales of videogame magazines. Before Google, one of the players' main method to find secrets was by reading guides in game magazines.

I actually thought that might have been part of the case, but it seems too petty and narrow a reason. Then I also remember we're living in an era of "pay-to-win" game design, so I'll put nothing past them...

Are you sure this is something only JRPGs do? It sounds to me like these are cases of old-fashioned game design. Platformers, adventure games - I've seen this type of obtuse(/sadistic?) game design everywhere. Back in the 80s and early 90s, it was more or less accepted that players would play through the game multiple times, often failing the first few times. My guess is that some of the older designers feel some nostalgia towards this and keep putting this kind of stuff in their games.

Oh, I'm certain it's not JUST JRPGs; it's neither a recent phenomenon nor limited solely to JRPGs; it just seems (in my experience) to happen more frequently and more mercilessly in JRPGs. Yahtzee put it best in his review of Dark Souls: "Oh yes, that boss fight is easy-peasy as long as you've got the Orange Listerine Ring, which you must have found because it's right there, in the open, in a chest in a basement in a different postcode behind two secret walls and a fire!"

Whenever someone brings up this topic, my mind goes straight to FFXII and the Zodiac Spear. In order to get the Zodiac Spear, the strongest weapon in the game, there are certain chests that you must not open. Opening any of these four chests will cause the Zodiac Spear to not appear in the game at all. The chests aren't exactly out of the way, either. It brings my piss to a boil. There's no way anyone gets the Zodiac Spear without following a strategy guide verbatim.

And that's what I'm asking about, the seemingly arbitrary and entirely unintuitive cause-and-effect relationships that players are supposed to... figure out, I guess? "Kill exactly 14 sewer rats, then, hours later into the game, talk to a seemingly random NPC while your character has the Petrified Unicorn Scrotum and precisely 9 health potions in their inventory; the NPC will give you the Scroll of Dentistry. Take that scroll and place it under the tree outside of the village you last visited 20 hours prior in the game and rest in the inn for 3 nights in a row. When you awaken on the third night, search the dresser in the bedroom of the house four doors east of the inn and you'll find the Sword of Perpetual Smiting, strongest weapon in the series.

 

[FalloutJack]

Snip

Well, part of the problem here is that you're using FF8, probably the worst Final Fantasy around, as one of your examples. It's a terrible game, so of course it's going to be a terrible time finding shit.

 

[Towowo]

FFXII's Zodiac Spear is different as the method to get it was entirely RNG. I'd like to think that other RPG's who vaguely hint at hidden content are different. The kind that encourage you to explore where you normally wouldn't.

 

[SlumlordThanatos]

FFXII's Zodiac Spear is different as the method to get it was entirely RNG. I'd like to think that other RPG's who vaguely hint at hidden content are different. The kind that encourage you to explore where you normally wouldn't.

IIRC, there are two ways to get the Zodiac Spear.

One way is the one Cycloptomese described: ignore four otherwise ordinary chests, and it appears in a certain place. There is also another chest in the game, I forget where, but it has a 1 in 100 chance to contain an item, and a 1 in 100 chance for that item to be the Zodiac Spear.

But don't quote me on this. I never finished the game.

 

[MysticSlayer]

My guess is that it is left over from the pre-Internet days. At that time, information on obscure stuff was often privy to those who played the game an insane amount of times (i.e. buy the game and keep it, don't rent or contribute to reselling market) or had the player's guide, which may have had money going to game's developer/publisher.

Of course, now with the Internet, less emphasis on renting, and DRM-protected digital games, a lot of the monetary motivation is gone, but that doesn't necessarily mean people have to leave it. It's what they know, and we all know how much developers love sticking to what they know.

 

[BrawlMan]

My experience with JRPGs is admittedly very limited; it?s pretty much just a couple playthroughs of Shining Forces I and II years ago on the Genesis, a dozen playthroughs of FF VIII between PC and PS3, one of FF XIII on Xbox 360 and flings with a handful of others last gen that were so brief, I can?t tell you their names. But one thing I noticed was pretty consistent in my exposure was how convoluted the secrets within can be. In Western games, secrets are pretty dumbed down; they tend to be sparse and usually just hidden rooms/items/characters usually found by following blatant trails of bread crumbs or exploring off the beaten path until you find certain areas of implicit significance. But in JRPGs, their secrets are so shrouded in ambiguity, finding them on your own without a guide is nigh unto impossible. Examples, finding GFs like Doomtrain, Tonberry King and basically ALL the non-junctionable GFs in FF VIII, Shining Force II hides the material necessary to craft the best weapons in the game in completely random, inconspicuous locations, etc.

My question is why is this? Is there perhaps a loss in translation or maybe some things (i.e.: clues) omitted from the Japanese version to the American ones? I just think it?s strange that they hide such significant content in ways you basically NEED to be told how to access it, especially in the days before the Internet when it wasn?t as simple as ?Googling? the answer or jumping into a forum and having someone tell you.

Two theories:

1. As reward for players who go the extra mile in thoroughly exploring the game. Besides, it isn't like those players got the reward and forgot about it. Before Google, those players would reveal the secret to their friends (or give them hints).

2. To increase sales of videogame magazines. Before Google, one of the players' main method to find secrets was by reading guides in game magazines.

This. That is how things more or less worked back then. Other genres did the same thing; 1-on-1 fighters, Platformers, Adventure Games, and FPS all did variations of being vauge or letting the player figure it out on their own. Even beat'em ups did this sometimes depending on the game.

 

[Aerosteam]

How the fuck could I have possibly gotten the true ending of Persona 4 without looking it up? D:

The game literally tells you "there's nothing to do here" or something. Fuck that. |: