JRPGs... and how to fix them

[Lazy Kitty]

No fixing needed, if you don't like the way they are don't play them.

 

[CheckD3]

I think the turn based combat systems need to stay, because it's one of the staples of the JRPG game. I think what needs to change is the stories. I'm sure this is said over and over, but it really is the stories that are over done. Characters need more characterization. And I think that when JRPGs start taking American habits in characters or gameplay, they start getting to western. The stories need to stop the anime styled plot lines, and take a turn down gritty street. Make them controversial, make them epic. For gods sakes though, stop making them groups of teenagers taking down huge powers.

 

[Danglybits]

They don't need fixing. Well, aside from stuff like this:


I hate it when my JRPGs get preachy, teaching me life lessons.

I feel physically ill after 60 seconds of that. But don't a lot of JRPG's get preachy and moralizing?

 

[CmdrGoob]

As shitty as Eternal Sonata? No. Good? No. They still manage to work in badly written lines like "only by letting strangers in, can we learn to be ourselves" and "give up on yourself, and you give up on the world", to pick the most egregious examples. It's bad writing because it's unsubtle exposition; in film, the guideline is 'show, don't tell' and games are very similar. Here, instead of just showing the character grow as he makes friends they hammer it right in your face by flat out telling you what the message is supposed to be. It's bad writing because it's so unsubtly written to hammer a message home that it just comes across as platitudinous preachy BS, like a bad self-help book. It's bad writing because it's so clumsy and inauthentic; real people just don't talk like that. It's like they said, "hey, we want to write a story with depth so we'll put a message in it about growing through friendship", and this is not necessarily a bad idea, but then they go and hammer the message in so unsubtly that any depth is lost and ends up being poorly written.

Ah but the thing is in World Ends With You it does show you it's themes of acceptance within it's gameplay mechanics. The combat in the game revolves you being "in synch" in order for your to triumph over your enemies. Achieving a high synch rate revolves around you actually talking to your partners, feeding them certain foods to increase their mood and stats, wearing certain clothes that meshes with your and coordinating attacks in perfect rhythm. Your partner's survival is essential to your own and its impossible to beat the game solo. On top of this the main character's self growth is carried out in game as well and not just shown through exposition. In World Ends With You, your character has a bravery rating and can only were certain items of a certain rank. Neku's bravery starts of rather low and will only wear clothes from two of the game's fashion dealers. His stubbornness to expand his horizons is clearly shown in the game as you can only equip a limited variety of items to him but as he levels up his bravery rating increases thus you can equip more items for him. All of these elements are introduced early on and the player doesn't even realize their symbolic representation until much later in the game.

All of this is exactly why it doesn't need to hammer the message home with unsubtle, lame self-help guide platitudes. And yet it does anyway, because it is poorly written.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

They don't need fixing. Well, aside from stuff like this:


I hate it when my JRPGs get preachy, teaching me life lessons.

I feel physically ill after 60 seconds of that. But don't a lot of JRPG's get preachy and moralizing?

It's NEVER that bad. It's usually more subtle.

 

[Fappy]

Remove androgynous characters. Remove the characters who have their heads shoved so far up their own vagina that they don't know what's going on. Have dialogue that makes sense, and has some sort of flow to it. Get rid of the idea of mandatory horrendous voice acting. Have a story that doesn't involve what is believed to be a man trying to destroy all creation with his feminine prowess.

Basically stop making them bad.

 

[G-Force]

All of this is exactly why it doesn't need to hammer the message home with unsubtle, lame self-help guide platitudes. And yet it does anyway, because it is poorly written.

Your issue with the writing is that it should "show not tell" but this JRPG both SHOWED and TOLD. Also you say that real people don't talk like that I'm gonna flat out disagree. In my college campus I frequently hear phrases akin to the dialogue in World Ends With You, stuff like

"We can not compromise the integrity of art in order to appeal to the masses"
"Those who refuse to suspend their disbelief are unworthy of seeing our collective artistic vision.
"Through collaboration we bridge social and economic gaps in order for public to hear our voices"

And this is day to day conversation.

 

[Steppin Razor]

They don't need fixing. Well, aside from stuff like this:


I hate it when my JRPGs get preachy, teaching me life lessons.

I was looking into getting Eternal Sonata recently, but that ending is scary. Is the game worth it or is the whole thing that bad?

OT: JRPGs don't need to be fixed. People who think they do should stick to playing the games they like. These games aren't made for you, they're made for people that actually enjoy the very same things you're whining about so kindly back the fuck off. Some people enjoy the statfest of some of these games and will happily spend hours grinding away just to beat an optional boss that is harder than all the other bosses combined. If they didn't the games wouldn't sell, simple as that.

I do prefer the exploration of a whole continent/world though, with at least one method of faster transportation or even teleportation to towns I've already been to. That's the only thing I think that needs to change. There is nothing more annoying than struggling for hours to make it to a new area, than have to spend another few hours heading back because there's no faster way of doing it.

 

[CmdrGoob]

All of this is exactly why it doesn't need to hammer the message home with unsubtle, lame self-help guide platitudes. And yet it does anyway, because it is poorly written.

Your issue with the writing is that it should "show not tell" but this JRPG both SHOWED and TOLD.

And the guideline is "show not tell", not "show and tell" because that comes across as unsubtle, anvilicious and preachy and is redundant if you've already shown. And having redundant writing makes the story feel long winded, dull and overly expositiony because you are repeating to the audience stuff they already know.

Also you say that real people don't talk like that I'm gonna flat out disagree. In my college campus I frequently hear phrases akin to the dialogue in World Ends With You, stuff like

"We can not compromise the integrity of art in order to appeal to the masses"
"Those who refuse to suspend their disbelief are unworthy of seeing our collective artistic vision.
"Through collaboration we bridge social and economic gaps in order for public to hear our voices"

And this is day to day conversation.

Heheheh *ahem* excuse me. Well, I can see why would think JRPGs are well written...

 

[Calamity]

Put the team behind the megaten games in charge of the industry.

Part of me is joking, while the other really wishes that would happen.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

They don't need fixing. Well, aside from stuff like this:


I hate it when my JRPGs get preachy, teaching me life lessons.

I was looking into getting Eternal Sonata recently, but that ending is scary. Is the game worth it or is the whole thing that bad?

Let's put it this way, it's preachy. But the game is so beautiful, and the music so good, and the combat so great, that it ends up overcoming its faux-philosophical bullshit. And the main plot isn't nearly as preachy as the credits. (well, once you unlock party level 3 it becomes better, so stick with it for a bit)

 

[G-Force]

Heheheh *ahem* excuse me. Well, I can see why would think JRPGs are well written...

Do you follow live theater? The quotes I've mentioned are from my college's theater arts' department which is considered one of the best in the nation. The students uttering those phrases have gone on to write successful plays to sold out out shows that both dazzle critics and audience members a like. The reason why I mention this is that "preachy JRPG" writing and and "show and tell" are SATURATED in the theater arts world. Because of my studies I've been required to read both modern and classical theater pieces and a majority of them have violated the "show not tell" rule especially during character soliloquies where they not only re-state the general message of the play but also go on to vocalize their emotions in dramatic ways. We can clearly see the actor being angry as he's trashing the set pieces around him yet still the play has lines like "GOD DAMNIT HE PISSES ME OFF!" Even Shakespeare was guilty of this when he wrote plays like "Romeo and Juliet" instead of just simply letting us figure out it was a tale of ill-fated romance he blatantly goes on to tell us this in the play's prologue.

Since we're at a disagreement on what's good writing, let me ask what games (RPG or otherwise) do you consider to have good writing that "shows not tells".

 

[Mr Wednesday]

There's a bit of a difference between modern cinema, which CmdrGoob mentioned, and a play that's getting on four hundred. Not to mention the difference between film and theatre, let alone the difference between games and theatre.

 

[HentMas]

How to fi JRPG? First stop calling tehm RPG... they are not role playing....
secound option make them like Western RPG

why are they not exactly "Role Playing Games"??????

if anything they are much more RPG than WRPG´s

dear god the nerve on some haters.

Please dont make me laugh, in what does JRPG you play a role?

The ultimate reference on the matters are PnP RPG, they where there the firsts. What make a RPG you might ask? IT'S the ability to play a role, to make decision foryour characters, that's all, JRPG dont let you do som or if they do the choices have very little to no consequence at all, beyound i have take this side-quest or no.
RPG are not about Experiences and level up, Many PnP don't have them (ShadowRun, Word of Darkness series, Kult, Call of Cthulhu not the d20 editions, Star Wars d6 edition, GURPS)
RPG are not about loots, again many PnP loot dont maters, or only story wise (Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness, ShadowRun (what would i do with a 12 Ares Predator gun and a used cyberware implants?), Kult...)

So by definition of a RPG is about the capacity to play a characters, take decision that will affect him and what surround him, something that as far as I know no JRPG offer

your argument doesn?t make any sense, look again, RPG means "ROLE PLAYING GAMES" as in "YOU PLAY PRETEND YOU ARE SOMEONE ELSE" if anything else WRPG are not really RPG because YOU make the CHARACTER ergo you are playing yourself.

And the "decisions" actually is a bland argument, because it just means that you are more involved in the story, when JRPG´s actually (most of them at least) only guide you through it which establishes more strongly your "Role" in the game.

I see where you are coming from, but you are wrong, RPG haves a meaning and that meaning actually fits more into JRPG´s than in WRPG´s.

On a different note, I like both kinds of RPG´s, but please don´t go pretending that only one kind of RPG exsist, they are both RPG´s just different kind of RPG´s

(I love shadow run, good to see you like it too ha-ha)

 

[Danglybits]

[quote="Onyx Oblivion" post="9.173916.4901192"
It's NEVER that bad. It's usually more subtle.[/quote]

Maybe, but I don't really want my videogames moralizing at me period. I've never had a videogame tell me a moral view that I hadn't already heard. I know good, I know evil, and I know the shades of gray. I know the self-serving bastard that won't let anyone get close, and the bleeding heart hero that thinks they can save everyone. What I have yet to see and want to see from JRPG's is something new.

I'm not really that keen in games having too much internal philosophizing.

 

[CmdrGoob]

Heheheh *ahem* excuse me. Well, I can see why would think JRPGs are well written...

Do you follow live theater? The quotes I've mentioned are from my college's theater arts' department which is considered one of the best in the nation. The students uttering those phrases have gone on to write successful plays to sold out out shows that both dazzle critics and audience members a like. The reason why I mention this is that "preachy JRPG" writing and and "show and tell" are SATURATED in the theater arts world. Because of my studies I've been required to read both modern and classical theater pieces and a majority of them have violated the "show not tell" rule especially during character soliloquies where they not only re-state the general message of the play but also go on to vocalize their emotions in dramatic ways. We can clearly see the actor being angry as he's trashing the set pieces around him yet still the play has lines like "GOD DAMNIT HE PISSES ME OFF!" Even Shakespeare was guilty of this when he wrote plays like "Romeo and Juliet" instead of just simply letting us figure out it was a tale of ill-fated romance he blatantly goes on to tell us this in the play's prologue.

Since we're at a disagreement on what's good writing, let me ask what games (RPG or otherwise) do you consider to have good writing that "shows not tells".

Firstly, you're comparing JRPG writing to Shakespeare? LOL? You seriously think any JRPG writer has even a fraction of Shakespeare's skill at balancing exposition with memorable dialogue, characterization and real human drama? No. Secondly, see the difference is the bolded part is how real people actually talk. Finally, I don't what to be insulting to you so I hope none of those quotes from your college are stuff you've said, but frankly those quotes come off as so much self-congratulatory wank you have to be more than a little tone deaf to consider them reasonable things to say. Not that they're bad lines - for a parody of a self-important, pretentious artist. I mean "Through collaboration we bridge social and economic gaps in order for public to hear our voices" hah, come on.

As for examples of well-written games, Planescape: Torment is an obvious choice. Half-Life 2 is an interesting example of videogame storytelling what with the way it scatters subtle story details throughout the gameplay world for players to discover and make sense of. The writing is also well paced, parsimonious in a good way; they pack a lot of character into a little dialogue, but they don't write too much of it. I feel like pacing the amount of storytelling to keep it appropriate for the game is often an underused skill in videogame writing (of course this varies with the genre; HL2 writing would be too brief for an RPG but is perfect for an FPS). Another example of good writing is how The Witcher handles its theme of racism and terrorism.

 

[IlikeLolis]

My one suggestion to fix all JRPG is to NOT PLAY THEM.

The system they have is geared toward people in their country, if you play it over here in "Westernville" your just not gonna get it.

That being said; you can enhance your JRPG funnesss Level by either developing a Lolita Complex, Spending no more and no less than 500$ at a Colorful Clothing Factory +Frills, and obeying the solid Japanese #1 Rule that "Anything made mention of before can be made cuter now".

 

[Steppin Razor]

Let's put it this way, it's preachy. But the game is so beautiful, and the music so good, and the combat so great, that it ends up overcoming its faux-philosophical bullshit. And the main plot isn't nearly as preachy as the credits. (well, once you unlock party level 3 it becomes better, so stick with it for a bit)

Fair enough. Now if only I could find a copy on PS3 and didn't have 15 other JRPGs to play through first.