JRPGs... and how to fix them

[Julianking93]

By having characters that don't look like 30 pound 12 year old girls.

 

[ajb924]

To start we could stop classifying them between W/J and acknowledge them as RPG's... you know how it was less then a decade ago. Granted this doesn't help the argument but if freedom is that important to you why not classify them as sandbox and linear RPG's? But I digress, the more restrictions, borders, lines, etc you put on things the more fanboys, haters and so on and so forth will appear. Take away the ability to classify something as different and these topics would be less likely to appear.

I agree. Been saying that for a while (like talking to a wall though).

But don't kid yourself, they may not have been called JRPG and WRPG in the past, but they were still called Console RPG and PC RPG. And yes, there were still elitist's in those days (but far less) who would eschew the other type.

The main problem these days is that Joe Everyman is now a gamer. He likes to shoot things, requires instant gratification, and if you can titillate him with a little sex between aliens, well that's all good too. But Joe Everyman hates those crazy cartoons that the Japanese keep making and the deep stories and bright colours tend to hurt his head. He also feels the need to distance himself from those awful head-hurting games so he gave them another name and has slowly begun to tell people that they aren't even RPGs at all.

Lucky for me, I'm not Joe Everyman. I like most RPG types except for the Shooter ones (exception: Fallout 3, due to VATS). I'm sure that you're not like our friend Joe either.

And you write that and yet still have the gall to accuse other people of being elitist! ROFL! You hypocrite. (Deep stories. Heheh, yeah right.)

To deny that both WRPGS and JRPGS do not contain deep stories is just a blatant disregard toward both sides of the argument. Fallout 3 shows humanity coping in a world of nuclear waste giving rise to a new form of racism all while the very core values of what is considered good and evil are called into question. Meaning JRPGS like the Persona series blend in psychological symbolism that involves your character using their psychological states that affects both plot but gameplay as well.

Virtually no RPGs, W or J, have deep stories (no, FO3 is not deep). Some people mistakenly think depth means shoehorning unsubtle, preachy, poorly written moralism and/or pretentious, pseudo-intellectual, faux-philosophical bullshit into the story, resulting in awful atrocities against writing such as this:
This is not deep. This is poorly written unsubtle bullshit.

Dude... It's one fucking game. You can't compare all to one. Hell, 2 Worlds was a WRPG right?
Is this shitty writing?

 

[Kavonde]

1) Stop dressing your main characters up like brain damaged blind people who just survived the explosion of a laundromat full of idiots with no taste.

Well, okay. That's my Americacentrism speaking. If the Japanese dig the costumes, then hey. That's why they're Japanese RPGs. I'm just saying...remember Final Fantasy 6? Remember Cyan, Edgar, Celes? Remember their unique yet generally period and setting-appropriate armor and clothing? Didn't they look cool? Yes, yes they did. So can we get more of that, and less of this [http://moesucks.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/tidus.jpg]?

2) Most of your core audience has survived puberty by this point. Stop casting teenage boys as your leads. You can keep the mopey wangst stuff if you must, but instead of having your lead be a mopey wangster because he can't get this girl he likes to notice him and hates math, have him be a mopey wangster because he's realized that his hopes and dreams have been crushed beneath the hopeless, remorseless, inescapable wheels of reality. Trust me, we can identify with that just fine.

3) No more "cute" sidekicks. No more "comic relief" characters. They're not cute, they're not funny, and when you make us fight a boss fight using them, we have to physically restrain ourselves from tracking you down and beating you to death with your own spleens.

4) This one's for Square: turn based combat's fine. It's old-school, it's the lasting, defining hallmark of the JRPG, even beyond the Androgynous Twit. Keep it. Refine it. Play with it. Do whatever you like with it. There's nothing wrong with it. Just stop abandoning it. Please?

5) Also for Square: remake FF6, so those young whippersnappers can see what a JRPG was before Cloud came along and ruined it for everyone.

 

[UnusualStranger]

Ah hell.....

I'm not even sure what is going on around here now, but I'll throw my piece in.

I can see where you are coming from OP. Sometimes, I look at some games and just can't tell the difference between them. Some of your improvements are good, others are...unrealistic.

In my oppinion they just need less cliche storylines

Big stroke here. What exactly do you want to change? Saving the world? I mean, you want a change, it has to be a little more specific.

more realistic social and building structures and people with normal reactions (less melodrama)

I can understand this. Sometimes, characters just seem driven to do whatever the ultimate objective is. Less on what exactly is going on around them, and acting terribly surprised only with certain moments, and at others being as emotional as a brick.

and getting pissed if you steal their shit, maybe some more freedom, if you give me a Continent i want to see it

Thievery, yeah. I want some sort of reaction for it from the town, or evil empire I just stole from. I sure as heck expect to be on WANTED posters now.

A little exploration though....Nothing wrong with that, but you need to watch it. I don't want to have to spend 20 mins running through a "Open" area, when I just want to get to point B.

i want to dress normally, unless at some point in history that was a fashion trend, i don't think 7 belts, 12 ribbons and more lace than a dominatrix is a realistic clothing choice.

Now this I can kind of agree with. Some people say you want it "westernized". I don't think that is what you are shooting for. I think you just want a outfit on that is so ridiculous that fighting in such an outfit would be a hazard. Its not that the clothing itself is terrible, or that the characters shouldn't dress to be unique, its just that sometimes instead of being unique, your more along the lines of "OOHHH!!!! LOOK AT ME! I'M AN INDIVIDUAL! I HAVE SPECIAL SKILLS TO HELP ON YOUR JOURNEY!" Sure, your different, but I shouldn't be able to spot it in a city from orbit.

What I think would make them better? Well, I think it falls in line with wanting a better storyline sometimes. Yes, I know I need to save the world, but why should I really care? And can there be better surprises along the way? I mean, who could have saw that the questionable ethics of my party member eventually turned him into my enemy? Please, I noticed that the second I saw those shifty eyes.

I almost want to see a story like FF6, where you do not save the planet. It gets screwed up pretty bad. But you come back from it. THAT was a hell of a plot twist.

EDIT

1) SNAP!

Sir, I fully support your opinion, and would like to thank you for also pointing out FF6.

 

[Talvrae]

And can there be better surprises along the way? I mean, who could have saw that the questionable ethics of my party member eventually turned him into my enemy? Please, I noticed that the second I saw those shifty eyes.

You mean like when you discovered you where the original bad guy, who had been brainwashed... oh yeah that happened in a WRPG... sure JRPG dont want that

(and no i wont say from wich game i take that if you can,t figure it out your self then.......)

 

[kawaiiamethist]

I love JRPGs to death, but they're just so generic, i mistook one game for another (Lost Odyssey + Last Remnant,) and no one really cared for one JRPG is very similar to another, and those mistakes happen frequently.

What are someways that they could make them better.

In my oppinion they just need less cliche storylines, a new and innovative battle system that doesn't break the flow gaming, more realistic social and building structures and people with normal reactions (less melodrama) and getting pissed if you steal their shit, maybe some more freedom, if you give me a Continent i want to see it. (but not the WRPG / MMO sized.) Oh and i want to dress normally, unless at some point in history that was a fashion trend, i don't think 7 belts, 12 ribbons and more lace than a dominatrix is a realistic clothing choice.

So what do you think they should do to fix JRPGs... without turning it into a WRPG.

Wait, wait, wait, WAIT. How the hell do you mistake Lost Odyssey for Last Remnant?? They are two COMPLETELY different styles of JRPG.

I think the problem lies with people still convinced all JRPGs are clones of each other, and that's just not the case. The industry has been shaking it up; turn based combat is no longer the norm and each JRPG offers their own take on the genre. A complete shake up would turn them into a new genre.

And I hate the idea of toned down costumes. I go into a JRPG expecting elaborate outfits that will destroy my soul when I attempt to express my fondndess via fan art (I'm looking at YOU, Lost Odyssey!). Not all have super alaborate costumes, though - some casts that come to mind are: Shadow Hearts, Enchanted Arms, Blue Dragon (bor-ring, you want this in every game?), Infinite Undiscovery, FFVIII and FFVII.

 

[kawaiiamethist]

I adore JRPGs but they have a couple things that if they changed I wouldn't complaing.

A fully explorable world map, not this select locations from a list bull-crap.Tales of Vesperia had a great world map that helped the game fell less linear. It's fun to go around finding new locations you shouldn't be finding and getting cool items.

Also if you absolutely want to have random encounters implement a system where you can avoid them. Otherwise making the enemy encounters visible ala Tales of or Persona 3/4.

If you haven't played FFXII, it just may be the game for you. It's a shame it didn't inspire more similiar games. The closest I can come up with is Magna Carta II, and even that was nowhere near the magnitude of FFXII's map.

 

[shadow skill]

Make more games like Persona 3 that are not on any kind of BS. That is how you fix all games not just JRPGs.

 

[UnusualStranger]

And can there be better surprises along the way? I mean, who could have saw that the questionable ethics of my party member eventually turned him into my enemy? Please, I noticed that the second I saw those shifty eyes.

You mean like when you discovered you where the original bad guy, who had been brainwashed... oh yeah that happened in a WRPG... sure JRPG dont want that

(and no i wont say from wich game i take that if you can,t figure it out your self then.......)

HA! Yeah, I know the game you refer to. And yeah, I like my surprises like that. They even pieced it together nicely too. So when you decided to play through again, you understood the small clues that were being tossed about. It was fun.

 

[MeputthecaninthebininHL2]

Making JRPG's better is like removing the child pornography from anime. It can't be done, no matter how much it would benefit humanity.

 

[kawaiiamethist]

How to fi JRPG? First stop calling tehm RPG... they are not role playing....
secound option make them like Western RPG

Ha ha! Silly troll, all story-driven games are role playing.

I had to check through the comments to make sure I didn't already say something. Seems eerily familiar in name and subject to a previous topic. A bit more diverse story would be nice. I could go about how FF7 is just a remake of FF6. More or less it all seems to boil down to "Save world from evil empire trying to unleash Sealed Evil in a Can." Also love how your main suggestion comes off as "Make them like WRPGs but not."

To be absolutely fair, ALL RPG's, J or W, essentially boil down to one of two stories anyway:

1. Star Wars
or
2. Lord of the Rings

.. or some variation of the two. But it's always "guy with a dream but not much respect that nobody would ever imagine being great at anything suddenly thrust into the middle of a epic where the very fate of the world/universe/dimension rests in his hands as he journeys with a ragtag group of useful archetypes like thieves, comic relief, and wizened old masters to grow from idealistic young nobody to a force to be reckoned with complete with powers and abilities beyond anything the imagination could have conceived."

Oh and the bad guy will have some kind of "wings".

No, it boils down to 'the hero's journey'; all RPGs and most any story follows this mode of storytelling, because it is the most compelling. Lucas did so well in crafting Luke's story because he was ticking off all of Campbell's criteria - literally.

 

[kawaiiamethist]

And can there be better surprises along the way? I mean, who could have saw that the questionable ethics of my party member eventually turned him into my enemy? Please, I noticed that the second I saw those shifty eyes.

You mean like when you discovered you where the original bad guy, who had been brainwashed... oh yeah that happened in a WRPG... sure JRPG dont want that

(and no i wont say from wich game i take that if you can,t figure it out your self then.......)

HA! Yeah, I know the game you refer to. And yeah, I like my surprises like that. They even pieced it together nicely too. So when you decided to play through again, you understood the small clues that were being tossed about. It was fun.

I was more surprised by everyone commenting on you-know-who's new hair colour, and not the new threads. Where did they come from??? >.<

 

[Ultress]

I adore JRPGs but they have a couple things that if they changed I wouldn't complaing.

A fully explorable world map, not this select locations from a list bull-crap.Tales of Vesperia had a great world map that helped the game fell less linear. It's fun to go around finding new locations you shouldn't be finding and getting cool items.

Also if you absolutely want to have random encounters implement a system where you can avoid them. Otherwise making the enemy encounters visible ala Tales of or Persona 3/4.

If you haven't played FFXII, it just may be the game for you. It's a shame it didn't inspire more similiar games. The closest I can come up with is Magna Carta II, and even that was nowhere near the magnitude of FFXII's map.

I've played and enjoyed it somewhat before I lent it to my cousin and I haven't seen it since. I'll probaly try to find it cheap somewhere down the road

 

[Killerbunny001]

JRPG`s are a cliche to start with. They are the response to the RPG gender from the Japanese who more or less try to emulate (poorly in my opinion) western cultures (mostly the US). Cliches tend to get old and die because by definition that is what they do. People who still enjoy them will still have them but with a lesser frequency now that the hype has finally died down.

My two cents.

 

[antigodoflife]

So by my understanding you want a central RPG you know not west but not east

Thank You

 

[CmdrGoob]

To start we could stop classifying them between W/J and acknowledge them as RPG's... you know how it was less then a decade ago. Granted this doesn't help the argument but if freedom is that important to you why not classify them as sandbox and linear RPG's? But I digress, the more restrictions, borders, lines, etc you put on things the more fanboys, haters and so on and so forth will appear. Take away the ability to classify something as different and these topics would be less likely to appear.

I agree. Been saying that for a while (like talking to a wall though).

But don't kid yourself, they may not have been called JRPG and WRPG in the past, but they were still called Console RPG and PC RPG. And yes, there were still elitist's in those days (but far less) who would eschew the other type.

The main problem these days is that Joe Everyman is now a gamer. He likes to shoot things, requires instant gratification, and if you can titillate him with a little sex between aliens, well that's all good too. But Joe Everyman hates those crazy cartoons that the Japanese keep making and the deep stories and bright colours tend to hurt his head. He also feels the need to distance himself from those awful head-hurting games so he gave them another name and has slowly begun to tell people that they aren't even RPGs at all.

Lucky for me, I'm not Joe Everyman. I like most RPG types except for the Shooter ones (exception: Fallout 3, due to VATS). I'm sure that you're not like our friend Joe either.

And you write that and yet still have the gall to accuse other people of being elitist! ROFL! You hypocrite. (Deep stories. Heheh, yeah right.)

To deny that both WRPGS and JRPGS do not contain deep stories is just a blatant disregard toward both sides of the argument. Fallout 3 shows humanity coping in a world of nuclear waste giving rise to a new form of racism all while the very core values of what is considered good and evil are called into question. Meaning JRPGS like the Persona series blend in psychological symbolism that involves your character using their psychological states that affects both plot but gameplay as well.

Virtually no RPGs, W or J, have deep stories (no, FO3 is not deep). Some people mistakenly think depth means shoehorning unsubtle, preachy, poorly written moralism and/or pretentious, pseudo-intellectual, faux-philosophical bullshit into the story, resulting in awful atrocities against writing such as this:
This is not deep. This is poorly written unsubtle bullshit.

Dude... It's one fucking game. You can't compare all to one. Hell, 2 Worlds was a WRPG right?

I didn't say every game was that bad. I picked that because it was a striking example of the kind of poor writing that I was talking about, so you could see an obvious example of poor writing masquerading as depth to see what I was talking about. And I deliberately wrote "W or J" because yes, there are badly written WRPGs.

Is this shitty writing?

As shitty as Eternal Sonata? No. Good? No. They still manage to work in badly written lines like "only by letting strangers in, can we learn to be ourselves" and "give up on yourself, and you give up on the world", to pick the most egregious examples. It's bad writing because it's unsubtle exposition; in film, the guideline is 'show, don't tell' and games are very similar. Here, instead of just showing the character grow as he makes friends they hammer it right in your face by flat out telling you what the message is supposed to be. It's bad writing because it's so unsubtly written to hammer a message home that it just comes across as platitudinous preachy BS, like a bad self-help book. It's bad writing because it's so clumsy and inauthentic; real people just don't talk like that. It's like they said, "hey, we want to write a story with depth so we'll put a message in it about growing through friendship", and this is not necessarily a bad idea, but then they go and hammer the message in so unsubtly that any depth is lost and ends up being poorly written.

 

[Mylon]

JRPGs like to say they're about the storytelling, but they telling it so SLOWLY. From delivering halting lines and unusual pauses between voice clips (FF10) to boring and stupid dungeons between storytelling sequences, the games just take too long to enjoy. Dramatic pause is fine, but not between every line.

And some improvements to the game systems would be nice. Most of them follow the boring level/class (with class being fixed) trope, so character growth isn't even a meaningful game mechanic.

 

[G-Force]

As shitty as Eternal Sonata? No. Good? No. They still manage to work in badly written lines like "only by letting strangers in, can we learn to be ourselves" and "give up on yourself, and you give up on the world", to pick the most egregious examples. It's bad writing because it's unsubtle exposition; in film, the guideline is 'show, don't tell' and games are very similar. Here, instead of just showing the character grow as he makes friends they hammer it right in your face by flat out telling you what the message is supposed to be. It's bad writing because it's so unsubtly written to hammer a message home that it just comes across as platitudinous preachy BS, like a bad self-help book. It's bad writing because it's so clumsy and inauthentic; real people just don't talk like that. It's like they said, "hey, we want to write a story with depth so we'll put a message in it about growing through friendship", and this is not necessarily a bad idea, but then they go and hammer the message in so unsubtly that any depth is lost and ends up being poorly written.

Ah but the thing is in World Ends With You it does show you it's themes of acceptance within it's gameplay mechanics. The combat in the game revolves you being "in synch" in order for your to triumph over your enemies. Achieving a high synch rate revolves around you actually talking to your partners, feeding them certain foods to increase their mood and stats, wearing certain clothes that meshes with your and coordinating attacks in perfect rhythm. Your partner's survival is essential to your own and its impossible to beat the game solo. On top of this the main character's self growth is carried out in game as well and not just shown through exposition. In World Ends With You, your character has a bravery rating and can only were certain items of a certain rank. Neku's bravery starts of rather low and will only wear clothes from two of the game's fashion dealers. His stubbornness to expand his horizons is clearly shown in the game as you can only equip a limited variety of items to him but as he levels up his bravery rating increases thus you can equip more items for him. All of these elements are introduced early on and the player doesn't even realize their symbolic representation until much later in the game.