JRPGs... and how to fix them

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HentMas

The Loneliest Jedi
Apr 17, 2009
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s69-5 said:
HentMas said:
Talvrae said:
How to fi JRPG? First stop calling tehm RPG... they are not role playing....
secound option make them like Western RPG
why are they not exactly "Role Playing Games"??????

if anything they are much more RPG than WRPG´s

dear god the nerve on some haters.
It's a tired old argument. Very narrow-minded as you can see.
Frankly, it's a little irritating that WRPG fans love to troll JRPG fans this gen. Historically, JRPGs were known as "console RPG". WRPGs were known as PC RPG. It makes the whole situation bizarre as WRPG have only been popularized on consoles this gen (with a few notables on the previous gen like KOTOR and Morrowind). It's the equivalent of owning a house. and having your neighbour decide to move in. From that point, the neighbour, now unwanted roomie decides to complain about the way the house is run. Annoying, unnecessary and uncalled for.

Basically, it's a form of PC Elitsm. And we all know how annoying that can get.
well, that i can understand, but the only real difference i see between both RPG´s is that one is more centered in character development while the other is more centered in story and gear enhancements, they both had pre-scripted storyes and little to where to chose from, you could add points all you wanted but both where the same in terms of gameplay, the distinction began when you could choose your way evil-good-neutral (which we all know is a joke) and they split into pen and paper RPG´s (western) and JRPG´s with the more basic RPG elements

i like them both, one takes you by the hand and guides you trough a really good story while the other gives you a sword and a shield and tells you "go nuts, and if you have time, go do this"

who doesnt like to run around in a city and "use" all objects to see if there is some stardust or other hidden object in a barrel?? and then go on ahead and kill the guy waithing for you to finish dicking around

who doesnt like to be told "do this and that and kill those while holding that, oh, and dont worry the bad guy can wait untill you are done going shopping for me"

i mean in the basic form the only difference is combat (in recent games), micro management (adding points and advancing your character "just" the way you like him) and world exploration.
 

HyenaThePirate

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Jan 8, 2009
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DeadlyYellow said:
Talvrae said:
How to fi JRPG? First stop calling tehm RPG... they are not role playing....
secound option make them like Western RPG
Ha ha! Silly troll, all story-driven games are role playing.

I had to check through the comments to make sure I didn't already say something. Seems eerily familiar in name and subject to a previous topic. A bit more diverse story would be nice. I could go about how FF7 is just a remake of FF6. More or less it all seems to boil down to "Save world from evil empire trying to unleash Sealed Evil in a Can." Also love how your main suggestion comes off as "Make them like WRPGs but not."
To be absolutely fair, ALL RPG's, J or W, essentially boil down to one of two stories anyway:

1. Star Wars
or
2. Lord of the Rings

.. or some variation of the two. But it's always "guy with a dream but not much respect that nobody would ever imagine being great at anything suddenly thrust into the middle of a epic where the very fate of the world/universe/dimension rests in his hands as he journeys with a ragtag group of useful archetypes like thieves, comic relief, and wizened old masters to grow from idealistic young nobody to a force to be reckoned with complete with powers and abilities beyond anything the imagination could have conceived."

Oh and the bad guy will have some kind of "wings".
 

YoUnG205

Ugh!...
Oct 13, 2009
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I like all JRPG's (not including eternal sonata HA!) so why fix what is not broke.
 

A random person

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Apr 20, 2009
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s69-5 said:
You know, as much as a lot of people love the "Tales" series, I'll never play one again after the disappointment that was Tales of Destiny on the SNES. There were some glaring errors in that game. One in particular involved a series of clues to password for a door. The clues led you to an incorrect solution. I was stuck at that damn door for a long time (until I could access to an online FAQ site -- which were not easily available in those days). That bitter taste turned me off of "Tales" forever.
*looks at Wikipedia*
You might want to recheck something, Tales of Destiny was released on the Playstation. The only SNES/Super Famicom one is Phantasia, and that was Japan-only. Maybe you played a ROM of that?

More importantly, though, I recall Tales of Destiny being one of the less liked Tales games. NeutralDrow and I would recommend you try Symphonia.

On an unrelated note, looking at your earlier post about the console/PC distinction it appears I taught you well, or at least I'd like to think I did.
 

Attelia

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Dec 23, 2009
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You can't "fix" a genre. Unfortunately, many of them are "Boy 1" teams up with "Girl 1", "Comic Relief", and "Slightly Older Guy" to save the world from "evil". Although, without the weird clothes, the occasional sexual tease (depends on the game), the cliched phrases, the... the... um... occasional androgynous teen. I forgot where I was going with this, but JRPGs are an aquired taste and if this list seems unnatural, you probably won't like them. That is to say, there are outliers that come up with something new and innovative, but usually they stay loyal to...
The eyes!
How could I forget? JRPGs look like anime, except it isn't like a T.V. show, 'tis like a video game. Cutscenes could have derived or been stolen from popular Japanese television shows. (I've no examples)
 

RikSharp

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Feb 11, 2009
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Hunter.Wolf said:
wall'o'text
this, this and indeed this.
why does everyone want to "fix" jrpgs? there is a huge library of vastly different games that could fall under the jrpg banner. the number of times i hear "the stories are generic" when you can easily generalise any two games' stories and say they are similar...



to quote the OT:
"a new and innovative battle system that doesn't break the flow gaming" or an FPS...
"more realistic social and building structures and people with normal reactions (less melodrama) and getting pissed if you steal their shit" or an elder scrolls game then...


the only point i agree on is a small level of character customisation in the clothes that you wear.
it's nice when you can see the armor you just paid you shiny gil or zenny or meat for.
 

A random person

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Apr 20, 2009
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s69-5 said:
I tried another Tales on PS2 at some point (don't recall which) and it just felt like Star Ocean lite.
It may have been Legendia, in which case that's also a series black sheep. Come to think of it, the Tales series is kinda like Final Fantasy with the quality rifts between games.
 

driveBYargument

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Jan 22, 2010
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Wall of text warning. Cookies to those who make it to the end!

I've played just about every JRPG out on the market and really I enjoy them far more than western RPGs. Of course I'm an older gamer with fond memories of my Final Fantasys, Xenogears, Lunars, etc. so when it comes to the level of bitching on the forums about how much people hate them I can't really see any reason for it, minus people jumping on the bandwagon of opinion from a certain reviewer on the Escapist.

Cliche storylines happen in just about every genre of shooter, adventure, or action title on the market. Cliche storylines are more a problem of bad writing, or poor translation (of language or culture). Admittedly any game on the market can be accused from borrowing something from another , though I simply believe you haven't played the right JRPG or it just isn't your style. JRPGs usually have varying degrees of battle systems and in fact I would argue they are the lead innovators of differentiated battle systems, Your Grandias don't play like your Ar Tonelicos, Your Lunars don't play like your Personas, etc. A flow of gaming isn't really definitive and I'd argue that the JRPGs you've been playing, just isn't the flow you're looking for. More realistic social and building structures, I'd say I would agree. It'd be nice if I had a relationship in Persona 4 that the person I had a relationship with would act like it. Limitations in programing and variables in script would have to be considered. I'd argue that if JRPGs had people with normal reactions, people would be less interested, simply because people have normal reactions in real life. Why simulate boring everday life? Besides that much of the "melodrama" you insist on is more of a cultural difference in the presentation of emotion. Most JRPGs were not designed with a western audience in mind, and when they come stateside, some people can't appreciate some of the more subtle focuses that a Japanese audience might've caught (through visual symbols and such). Even then some things just don't translate well to the western audience and they are cut all together. I dismiss your argument about stealing simply because its silly and you do happen to steal in a more discoverable and easy fashion. (You enter someones house search through their stuff all the time in both Western and JRPGs.) More freedom, to do what? Clarify and I'll argue the point. Plenty of JRPGs give you a continent to explore, and in fact invented the whole wandering around continents crap. I don't really care for it myself simply because there is no point in it, its just an arbitrary gameplay lengthening obstacle. Dressing normally is perspective, you want to dress like a westerner I assume. I once again argue why you would want to simulate everyday boring real life? This is a matter of immersing ourselves in a universe that isn't our own, the dress is different to reflect that. I'd say your suggestions would just make JRPGs more "generic" in that they take the individuality, the intrigue, and the quirkiness out of these games and turn them into the samey action/adventure shoot outs of the western society.
 

Kaisikudo

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Sep 30, 2009
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Hunter.Wolf said:
Like many have said, they don't need fixing ... specially the things you mentioned, you probably need to be playing a different genre .. specially if you can't spot the differences between different JRPG games .. that a sign this genre isn't for you.

As for being generic ... WRPG are equally generic ... but no one is complaining ... and yeah .. i'm not that much into WRPGs (eventhough i did enjoy Mass Effect because of the Sci-Fi theme and the fact that combat is action-oriented).

To show what i mean here are some of my fav JRPGs.

-Final Fantasy 8 (Along with most of the Final Fantasy series)
-Final Fantasy Tactics
-Vagrant Story
-Persona
-Kingdom Hearts
-Star Ocean: Till the end of time
-Front Mission
-Chrono Trigger/Cross
-Odin Sphere
-Disgaea
-Radiata Stories
-Valkyria Chronicles
-Demon's Souls

None of them is generic or alike in my eyes .. each and everyone of them represents a different style of JRPG and very fresh experience.

Each one has different mechanics, different approach to story telling and varied casts of characters .. but naturally they all must also share some mechanics and themes since they are all JRPGs .. that's not being generic .. that's being in a "genre" .. it's like people one day start complaining that action movies involve action or murder mysteries involve a murder case .. if you don't like somethings about a "genre" then like i said above ... then it might not be for you.
I totally agree with this guy.

That is one of the most beautiful lists I have ever read. I think I swooned to siding with your argument after I saw that. Kaisi-kudos to you, sir.

I'd also add Koudelka if that counts as a JRPG - same presentation and gameplay, but it's set in Ireland instead of some fictional fantasy world. Actually, that game was like a cross between Final Fantasy and Resident Evil.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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Sep 3, 2008
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The characters in any JRPG are interchangable with those in another. If you want me to remember your story, give me a character that stands on it's own without the power of cliche bolstering it.

The combat system itself in most of these games are simply rock paper scissors battles - while this if utterly functional it isn't entirely deep. Many JRPG's complement this by adding layers of unnecessary complexity to muddy the entire thing (Summons for example) but still don't increase the depth of play. In most cases, success or failure in a battle relies on two things - following a pattern of attack and defense and being appropiately geared and powerful. Complexity and depth are surprisingly different concepts in these terms. I can have a trillion unique attacks and combinations thereof which is fantastically complex but if in a given situation only one pariticular combination will function properly there is no real depth.

I generally assume that my problems with the game are personal however and not necessarily widespread as a great many people routinely play games that present these issues in spades. If either problem were resolved, I might be willing to give a game a try, but if both were fixed then it might actually generate some excitment.
 

Sion_Barzahd

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Jul 2, 2008
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I'm a self-confessed JRPG fanatic. The only thing most modern ones are missing is a god damn field mode!!

By which i mean where you wander about on poorly rendered terrain between cities, and can uncover all sorts from forest areas to caves or dungeons.

I really missed this in eternal sonata and lost odeyssy. Painfully so. Tales of Vesperia had it, and that was easily the best JRPG to be released for the current gen. of consoles.
 

NGW

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Jan 8, 2009
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Gameplay is all they need.

There's a reason I prefer jRPGs like Legend of Dragoon or Mario and Luigi to the typical "I may as well put in a DVD and mess with the menu" kinda jRPG.
 

LogicNProportion

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Mar 16, 2009
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o_O

Did I read that right, OP?

Last Remnant and Lost Odyssey are almost nothing alike.

Last Remnant = Shit
Lost Odyssey = Damn good

JRPG's don't need fixing in terms of combat systems, etc. I love turn based gameplay, even if it's just Nostalgia being a *****.

With the whole J-Pop look Square is going with now, however......
 

LogicNProportion

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Mar 16, 2009
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Kaisikudo said:
Hunter.Wolf said:
Like many have said, they don't need fixing ... specially the things you mentioned, you probably need to be playing a different genre .. specially if you can't spot the differences between different JRPG games .. that a sign this genre isn't for you.

As for being generic ... WRPG are equally generic ... but no one is complaining ... and yeah .. i'm not that much into WRPGs (eventhough i did enjoy Mass Effect because of the Sci-Fi theme and the fact that combat is action-oriented).

To show what i mean here are some of my fav JRPGs.

-Final Fantasy 8 (Along with most of the Final Fantasy series)
-Final Fantasy Tactics
-Vagrant Story
-Persona
-Kingdom Hearts
-Star Ocean: Till the end of time
-Front Mission
-Chrono Trigger/Cross
-Odin Sphere
-Disgaea
-Radiata Stories
-Valkyria Chronicles
-Demon's Souls

None of them is generic or alike in my eyes .. each and everyone of them represents a different style of JRPG and very fresh experience.

Each one has different mechanics, different approach to story telling and varied casts of characters .. but naturally they all must also share some mechanics and themes since they are all JRPGs .. that's not being generic .. that's being in a "genre" .. it's like people one day start complaining that action movies involve action or murder mysteries involve a murder case .. if you don't like somethings about a "genre" then like i said above ... then it might not be for you.
I totally agree with this guy.

That is one of the most beautiful lists I have ever read. I think I swooned to siding with your argument after I saw that. Kaisi-kudos to you, sir.

I'd also add Koudelka if that counts as a JRPG - same presentation and gameplay, but it's set in Ireland instead of some fictional fantasy world. Actually, that game was like a cross between Final Fantasy and Resident Evil.
Don't forget Orphen: Scion of Sorcery!

Came out on the PS2 forever ago, and had a low budget, but it was damn good for it's time. =]
 

Talvrae

The Purple Fairy
Dec 8, 2009
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HentMas said:
Talvrae said:
How to fi JRPG? First stop calling tehm RPG... they are not role playing....
secound option make them like Western RPG
why are they not exactly "Role Playing Games"??????

if anything they are much more RPG than WRPG´s

dear god the nerve on some haters.
Please dont make me laugh, in what does JRPG you play a role?

The ultimate reference on the matters are PnP RPG, they where there the firsts. What make a RPG you might ask? IT'S the ability to play a role, to make decision foryour characters, that's all, JRPG dont let you do som or if they do the choices have very little to no consequence at all, beyound i have take this side-quest or no.
RPG are not about Experiences and level up, Many PnP don't have them (ShadowRun, Word of Darkness series, Kult, Call of Cthulhu not the d20 editions, Star Wars d6 edition, GURPS)
RPG are not about loots, again many PnP loot dont maters, or only story wise (Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness, ShadowRun (what would i do with a 12 Ares Predator gun and a used cyberware implants?), Kult...)

So by deffinition of a RPG is about the capacity to play a characters, take decision that will affect him and what surround him, something that as far as i know no JRPG offer
 

Thaius

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Mar 5, 2008
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Lost Odyssey and The Last Remnant? Umm... how? How on earth could you mix those two up? :/

OT: I personally think people are just getting upset at JRPGs for not delivering what Western audiences have come to want in a game. None of the complaints that keep popping up are actually indicative of bad game design, only cultural differences. None. Seriously, not a single one. They're either borne out of ignorance or preference, then broadcast all over the internet.

Japan makes things differently than America: it's not that they're not doing it right, it's just that they're doing it differently, from a different cultural perspective than us. Get used to it or ignore it.