JRPGs

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Sariteiya

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Jun 10, 2011
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I used to love JRPGS when I was a kid, ones like Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI, but lately I can barely stand them.

Part of it is the increasing Flanderization taking place with Character types. It used to be that a varied, diverse set of personalities made for a great game (FFVI for example). Lately though, developers have begun to churn out the same set of "personalities" in every game, Eg: The Wacky One, the Serious One, etc. Yahtzee can fill you in on all that.

Also, I kinda got sick of turn based combat. Maybe I'm overstimulated now, but I get very bored very easily with the turn based system now. I find I prefer things like Tales's combat.
 

Richardplex

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Jun 22, 2011
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I don't like Turn Based combat. I have nothing else against JRPGs. Any WRPG that uses it I dislike just as much, JRPGs that don't use it, I don't dislike. It's just that JRPG generally implies TBC, thus generally implies my dislike. Also, if a game near forces me to farm, I put that game down. I don't like WoW for the same reason, despite how I played it for 3 years. Compulsion is a bad thing.
 

CM156_v1legacy

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Mar 23, 2011
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Zhukov said:
*shrug*

I hate the combat, I usually hate the characters, I always hate the dialogue and I really hate the visual design.

What more would you like to know?
This man speekith the truth.

OT: I like WRPGs because, more often then not, I can create my own character. Let's take my favorite WRPG and compare it to a JRPG I rencently gave up on, FFXIII

In Neverwitner Nights 2, I could create my own character. Drow Monk? Aasimar Sorcerer? Half-orc Paladin? Human Rogue? Tiefling Cleric? Gnome Fighter? Halfling Wizard? You get the idea. Then I can pick their diety and alignment. And set them loose on the world. For the most part, I am a blank slate, so I can have my own canon backstory if I so want. I get to chose how I react to problems as well. For example:
A merchant is being robbed, do I:
1) Charge in combat, and shield him with my... er.. shield?
2) Join the robbers?
3) Kill them both and take the lewt for myself?

In JRPGs, I often don't have that option. I DO have a backstory created by the game, and a physical appearence as well. Combat is turned based (Which I don't mind as a fan of d20), but it is rarely done well. And it is too slow.

The art design for WRPGs seems more practical, while for JRPGs it's rather "out there"

But hey, that's not to say I think WRPGs are better in every way. I love pokemon, which is, in fact, a JRPG. I just prefer them
 

thedoclc

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Jun 24, 2008
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It is entirely preference. Preference is neither right nor wrong. People will not like what you like; stop thinking that that is their problem. It's not. It's your problem for being unable to accept they dislike what you like. Period. End Thread. Oh, wait, some comments.

Here are some reasons many players prefer the WRPG.

Player Choice
WRPGs are built on the model created by the tabletop games from which they descended. Almost all WRPGs are designed to maximize player choices and feature branching plotlines. In addition, they tend to have an aesthetics which are decidedly Western, hold the player responsible for the decisions they make, and feature characters who follow the tropes of Western heroes. This is true of almost all great WRPGs - as quickly as developers could find ways to give the player more responsibility for what occurs in the game, they did. From Ultima, through the Black Isle and Interplay days, through Bioware's latest and greatest, the WRPG has always built depth around choice.

The JRPG has almost never featured significant player influence on the decisions characters make. Player choice was pretty much limited to, "Do I complete this chain of subquests exactly the way the developer wants me to or not?" While this makes for easier (I completely disagree about it being better - go play Torment right now) storytelling, this does mean the player pretty much decides bupkiss as far as the plot and character development goes.

Characterization and Theme
In addition, the JRPG currently uses heavily stylized scenes and combat styles that rely on spectacle. The effect is hit and miss on audiences. Too much of it causes viewers to grow bored or - worse yet - dismiss the characters entirely when they go back to "lining up and waiting their turn." For a WRPG example of this, consider how annoyed ME2 players were when Jack devastates a large number of enemies like some crazed bat out of hell, then turns back into a standard support NPC when she enters the party.

Many players find turn-based combat quite annoying. This statement needs no clarification.

Many players like the Japanese aesthetic of character design. Many players do not. I am shooting from the hip here, but there seems to be a pronounced pattern in Asia that the hero is visually different. Western male heroes are more masculine and tend to be older. They look like they've seen some things. Asian male heroes tend to be less masculine, softer-looking, and younger. For me{/i], this buries immersion. I can't believe this child-like C is somehow the warrior archetype. I'm sure there's a serious discussion to be had here about storytelling archetypes cross-culturally, but that's neither here nor there. Female action heroes in the West tend to follow a less pronounced pattern; they're tough -and- women, with their femininity not taking away from being tough. Japanese RPG female characters are often drawn as being terribly, incredibly feminine.

There also tends to be a story-gameplay disconnect. Yahtzee hinted at this in his FF13 review. Characters in JRPGs often have a confidence issue that leads them to have serious angst - and then proceed to kick the tar out of a dozen guards at once as soon as combat starts. Yet we're expected to continue to emphasize with their angst. This is hard on the western audience since (1) that person keeps claiming to be weak after defeating a small army and (2) most western viewers really do not like watching characters suffer angst. It's hard to care about their emotional problems when they are characters - let alone they are the supposed heroes. WRPGs tend to cast less "fragile" heroes. Kaim Arganor was one of the few JRPG heroes to not irk the crap out of me in a long while; he starts like another Cloud-clone, but then quickly develops a tragic and moving backstory and reasonable human response. Then, when the big dramatic question is raised and Act I is over, Kaim doesn't sit there and whine about his fate. Sure, he's hurt, but more than that, he gets up to do what is necessary. This is a very "western friendly" concept of the heroic character.

Grind and Adventures
Many players find grind to be quite annoying. This -does- need clarification. Grind is needed in an MMO since the plot usually takes a back seat to other activities. However, turn your eyes back to the idea of WRPG's roots, table top RPGs. A good GM throws few pointless random encounters in. Too many, and players feel bored since they feel like they are simply fighting without purpose. WRPGs moved very quickly away from grind. Monsters which had nothing to do with the plot were extremely limited; encounters should be thematically tied to the location they occur in and enemies generally stand as a direct barrier to the player's goal. In a good WRPG, the player does not have to grind and typically feels no incentive to do so; the player is a hero on a quest, not interested in beating down every stray creature in sight. JRPGs as a rule do not follow this model at all when building adventuring sites. Instead, you randomly walk into a haphazard collection of enemies who often have little or no reason to oppose your party. It's just what they do as they sit there, waiting invisibly on the map. Let's consider two nearly contemporaneous classics, Baldur's Gate II and Final Fantasy IV. FFIV was grind-tastic most of the time, and a journey to any one location often involved dozens of battles which did not further the plot or story at all. Baldur's Gate II featured an occasional one-off encounter on your way to a destination, but mostly kept encounters limited to creatures thematically linked to whatever a player was doing in the area. It also relied on less encounters.

Combat
WRPGs also show their table top roots in how they allow players to tackle obstacles with varied tactics and decisions. Most JRPG combat still fits the model of line up and whack things, even as recently as Lost Odyssey. Even when they don't, JRPG combat often uses a very transparently "game-like" system: think Enchanted Arms or Final Fantasy Tactics. WRPGs use their mechanics to build some combat system which (IMHO) rewards player innovation and decision making within those mechanics. Consider how Mass Effect 2 had simple builds for characters, but very complex, dynamic combat. Contrast this with the deep spell lists, stealth, and thousand other options available in a game like Icewind Dale. Consider just how many different ways one could approach the problem of storming a gate full of Daedra in Oblivion. WRPGs have generally given players a more "combatty" feel for how fighting works in that world while the JRPG has often had some unusual ideas and systems which just seem odd to Westerners. I still believe this comes out of the idea that WRPGs descend from TT RPGs which descend from wargames, leading the WRPG to follow its mechanics as a simulation (however weird) of combat and the JRPG treating it as a game element. In a WRPG, sending your thief-type character forward to scout is often a valid option. In a JRPG...not so much.

"Oh, but I play RPGs only for the story!"
Well, sure, fine. But gameplay in my opinion is the heart of a game and the engine room. Many WRPGs pay a great deal of attention to ensuring the -gameplay- is as engaging as the plot. You are entitled to the opinion that plot can excuse bad gameplay. I disagree entirely. This issue is simply a difference of opinion, but I will say that many WRPGs have proven you can deliver exciting, deep, fast-moving, non-grindy gameplay and still have an exciting, deep, intricate plot. So a good plot is in no way incompatible with good gameplay, and I do not believe it excuses bad gameplay.

Interactivity
This one is simple. Much of a typical JRPG experience is spent watching (or reading!) exposition which the player takes in passively. Much of a typical WRPG - even one as dependent on conversation as Torment - is spent making decisions and interacting with the game world. Many players do not want to just watch the game talk to itself.

Cultural Differences
A great deal of the nuances of JRPGs seem new to Westerners because they are Japanese! Plenty of these tropes are damn near cliches to the Japanese themselves. A great deal of the "new" ideas in the genre are only new to us. A great many more are simply represented differently. The Japanese have the same reaction to -our- cultural messages and tropes.

Consider this discussion I had with a friend while watching Akira Kurosawa's masterpiece Ran.
"Wow, this movie is amazing. I love how the Japanese presented all this. I'm not sure I've seen too many American or European films-"
"It's King Leer."
"What?"
"It's King Leer. Kurosawa was introducing Shakespeare to the Japanese in a manner they could understand, and the story was very fresh and new to them. He also did Macbeth - it's called Throne of Blood."
"...oh, wow." (dawning realization)

Or go google up Shakespeare in the Bush for a truly stunning example.

So why this aside into cultural context? Well, remember that not -everyone- is going to love the ideas from another culture as much as -you- might. It may simply not gel with a person as it has with you. There is a brief discussion of this in the Extra Credits video "Myth of the Gun," which discusses how the Japanese cultural context for force and the hero limits it to rare individuals who can internalize that power. We westerners tend to believe -anyone- can be the hero; the hero is marked by grit and determination, with the weapon and means of delivering the bad guy to his end just being a tool. (I'm cutting their discussion down horribly for length - go watch it.)

That's a -few- of the reasons I like the WRPG much more than the JRPG. No, it's not a lack of familiarity with Japanese culture; I speak a bit of the language, enjoy their cinema, and have read some of the literature. That doesn't mean I have to enjoy their games, haven't given them a fair shake, or can enjoy Japanese cuisine. (Sorry, Japan - your food is nasty to me.) It's called taste, and de gustibus non est disputandum.
 

Reincarnatedwolfgod

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i never play any off the Western RPGs or JRPGs you listed do don't know but i have played a flash game(mardek rpg) the may have been a jrpg and i don't have any problems with the game. in fact i like the game and it beats a mediocre AAA game any day IMO
 

Chibz

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Fanfic_warper said:
Ok, so I hear it all the time on Yahtzee's reviews and from a lot of other people on the forums, but I generally do want to know what people seem to have against JRPGs.
I don't hate JRPGs, I jus hate the generic mess they've become. Some of my favourite games are JRPGs!
 

zhoominator

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Jan 30, 2010
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Zhukov said:
*shrug*

I hate the combat, I usually hate the characters, I always hate the dialogue and I really hate the visual design.

What more would you like to know?
You know, because every JRPG is like FF, right? Right?!

The correct answer is: no.

I think that's the problem most people have. A big part of this problem is also that many JRPGs stay in Japan and never get released over here, so we have an incredibly narrow perception of the genre, so it would be kinda like if I were to base my opinion on Australian television solely on Neighbours and Home and Away, the only two shows that people in the UK can watch on Freeview (well, pretty much anyway). Of course that would be unfair and also rather silly, but that doesn't stop Westerners making exactly these presumptions when it comes to Japanese media.

Not only that, when products do come over, they often don't remain entirely intact. Often the stories will be significantly changed when they are released here. Power Rangers and Card Captors are extreme and probably well known examples of this but it crops up all over the place. On many occasions if you hate the crap plot, it isn't the JRPG you should blame but the shitty localisation team who may dilute or outright change a story to pander to a larger American audience.
 

Lt. Vinciti

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Nov 5, 2009
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?Tend to follow linear plots, with less of a Wide Open Sandbox setting.
?The player usually controls a party of predesigned characters. The player is sometimes offered a choice of what characters to use, but not the option of designing his own protagonists.
?The party members are usually written into the plot, rather than blank slates.
?A linear plot and lack of character creation that, hopefully, allows a more cinematic and tightly-scripted story.
?Later games tend to have one or more elaborate, minigame-like "systems" (such as the License Grid in Final Fantasy XII) that allow skill and ability customization.
?Random Encounters are a common gameplay element.
?Turn-based combat is also prominent.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EasternRPG

My dislike stems from these fine examples....
 

madwarper

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Mar 17, 2011
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JWRosser said:
The problem is (and FF is not excluded from this) is that JRPGs do follow a lot of clichés. Whilst sometimes this works...a lot of the time it gets tedious. Also, character archetypes are generally the same. Looking at the last few Final Fantasy games, you can easily pick out similar characters:
The Spunky Girl: Yuffie, Selphie, Eiko, Rikku, Penelo, Vanille.
The Lone Warrior: Cloud, Squall, Amarant, Lightning.
The Love Interest (and usually White Mage): Aeries, Rinoa, Garnet, Yuna.
The Evil Overlord of some sort: Rufus (Shinra), Edea, Brahne, Seymour, Vane, Galenth Dysley/ Baldanders.

I mean, these archetypes obviously work, but they do get a bit samey.
While I agree that cliches are well... cliche, this is not a problem that just exists within JRPGs.

The spunky girl: Tali, Sierra, Shale
The lone warrior: Shepard/Garus/Wrex, You, You/Sten
The love interest: Ashely/Liara, Amata, Everyone
The evil overlord: Saren/Sovereign, President Eden/Colonel Autumn, The archdemon

That's Mass Effect, Fallout and Dragon Age, 3 big WRPGs with the same cliche casting.
 

LordFisheh

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Dec 31, 2008
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I just really dislike the art style in most JRPGs. I don' think it's inferior or anything, it's just not to my taste.

To me, the odd hair, oversized weapons, impractical costumes, and so on just come across as really silly looking. And don't get me started on cat ears of any variety whatsoever.
 

MatsVS

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Nov 9, 2009
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People seem to think that playing pre-established characters somehow lessens the gaming experience, which is, of course, rubbish. When playing a non-defined character, such as Shepard, the Grey Warden, the Wastelander, the Prisoner, Revan, etc, etc, you sacrifice all potential of depth so that the protagonist instead functions as a glorified avatar of the player. You can, naturally, roleplay all the depth you want into your avatar, but the game will never recognize this. This has its merits, as it opens up whole new dimensions of possibilities, and it is fascinating to see how NPCs reacts to you in different ways depending on how you choose to manipulate them. The NPCs can still be great characters, after all.

However, I much prefer to play a fully fleshed out character, with specific traits, weaknesses and preferences, and see how him/her interacts with the world we explore together. It makes a whole lot more sense from a narrative standpoint, as it anchors the narrative more firmly to the protagonist and opens up the possibility of the game granting the main character an actual arc. You know, that small thing that defines all great characters through all great stories. Ever.

Why cry for the Grey Warden, when he or she was only smoke?
 

Iwata

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Feb 25, 2010
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1- JRPG's have a generally-obnoxious, "Japanese means better" fanbase that gets annoying really fast.

2- JRPG's follow the same formula over and over again, changing... well... nothing, really.

3- The cast and characters also follow the same formula over and over again, with the same tired stereotypes being presented under not-so-different skins.

I'll be the first to admit that it's a matter of personal taste, and I'm sure some people will rave on and on (and on and on and on) on the good side of JRPG's, but for the reasons above and more, they are most definitely not my cup 'o tea. I do like Japanese games (Vanquish, Shadows of the Damned, No More Heroes, Demons' Souls) but the JRPG's are, to me, the Twilight-area of video gaming.
 

MightyRabbit

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I believe it's either a dislike of the character archetypes and designs and a general lack of interest in the battle systems, which many people see as boring, slow or too removed from reality.

Also, the fanbases tend to be arrogant and exclusionary, or just plain weird.

Oh, and a lot of JRPGs we get here are just not original, or even very good. They're like the Japanese equivalent of all those brown, boring generic shooters.

They're very much a love-it or hate-it collection of games, and I'm very much live and let live about it. It's a shame that a portion of the retractors of the genre don't do the same.
 

AlternatePFG

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I like good JRPG's but I can see why people dislike it. Honestly, I don't like the anime style but if the game is good enough I can get past it.
 
Jun 11, 2008
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JWRosser said:
The exact same can be said of WRPGs especially Biowares.
Fanfic_warper said:
There are plenty reasons to dislike all FF games stop singling out one game because it did have at one point in time the most obnoxious in your face fan base. Every game has reasons to dislike it.

OT: People do not like art and character style, people do not like gameplay, the fanbase. Same reasons people dislike other games there is nothing special about JRPGs in this regard.
 

Fishyash

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Dec 27, 2010
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I like both and can appreciate both. Both of them have their goods and bads and have their own clichés and archetypes story-wise and character-wise.
 

Chibz

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Iwata said:
1- JRPG's have a generally-obnoxious, "Japanese means better" fanbase that gets annoying really fast.

2- JRPG's follow the same formula over and over again, changing... well... nothing, really.

3- The cast and characters also follow the same formula over and over again, with the same tired stereotypes being presented under not-so-different skins.
1. I don't know about the fans of more recent FF games, but most of my JRPG-enjoying friends enjoy the games we do because they're genuinely fun.

2. I'll assume you're talking gameplay here. Tell me what FF2, FF6 and Dragon Quest 9 have in common other than turn-based or pseudo-turn based combat. Even the stat systems are radically differnt.

3. Um... What? A quality JRPG won't fall under this. At all.
 

Leoofmoon

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Aug 14, 2008
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I really like RPG's western or japanes i fnd them fun and enteraining. the FFXIII is the most BORING combat and painnuming RPG iv every played im getn XIV because i liked XI the MMO was kinda fun.