Just because she isn?t saying no doesn?t mean she is saying yes

[Canadish]

I would say it's an unhealthy attitude for courts to assume all sex is not consented unless proven otherwise however.

I'd agree, but the alternative is to say all sex is consented unless proven otherwise, which seems worse.

Not if any bitter person in an failed relationship can turn around and claim rape.

Generally this doesn't happen, but there are as many nutcases out there as there are rapists.

The other problem with that is that the current attitude held is that "Only Men can rape" and to suddenly have it so that all sex is illegal unless the girl agrees later that it was consentual...it's going to leave men paranoid about having causal sex because he might be getting into bed with "that girl" who's vindictive monster who has the legal power to ruin his life at a whim.

That's just not a healthy thing for people to constantly have to worry about.
Sex doesn't need to be anymore terrifying for a guy, on top of the fear of getting a girl pregnant, or performance issues, or whether he'll mess up.

We don't want a situation like Japan where men have just given up dealing with women.

 

[Jerkules]

This isn't the 50's anymore.
I've had no doors opened for me based on being straight, based on being white or based on being man (let me be clear here, this is a good thing).
Frankly, it's an insult you're suggesting that.

Now, unless you're referring to a certain area or part of the world (I can't say I know what it's like in America or Canada right now), in which case, fair enough.
But we're on an international forum here, so please specify if this is the case.

Well, if you're a straight white male living in America, then yes, you have had doors opened to you for that reason alone. It's not an insult, rather a statistical reality.

 

[Jerkules]

Well of course it's difficult to prove, it's often always a matter of "He said, she said." And that is never going to be enough for a conviction.

I'm aware. Since you are as well, you should also realize how stupid and selfish and myopic the idea that false rape accusations are some kind of grave issue is.

 

[TheDoctor455]

*Sigh*

Can we please stop talking about rape. Please. Just for one day.

This is what The Escapist would look like without gender issue threads.

Only if all gender issues were resolved and no one ever needed to discuss it again.

Unfortunately, there ARE gender issues that impact everyone in some way. Therefore, they need to be discussed until they really are no longer a problem. Burying your head in the sand never solves anything.

 

[Canadish]

This isn't the 50's anymore.
I've had no doors opened for me based on being straight, based on being white or based on being man (let me be clear here, this is a good thing).
Frankly, it's an insult you're suggesting that.

Now, unless you're referring to a certain area or part of the world (I can't say I know what it's like in America or Canada right now), in which case, fair enough.
But we're on an international forum here, so please specify if this is the case.

Well, if you're a straight white male living in America, then yes, you have had doors opened to you for that reason alone. It's not an insult, rather a statistical reality.

Not being snarky here, genuine interest;

What kinds of direct advantages does one get for being straight, white and male in America (outside of obvious industries like in Hollywood)?

Well of course it's difficult to prove, it's often always a matter of "He said, she said." And that is never going to be enough for a conviction.

I'm aware. Since you are as well, you should also realize how stupid and selfish and myopic the idea that false rape accusations are some kind of grave issue is.

A false rape charge is pretty damn serious.
edit: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2149462/Brian-Banks-One-time-football-star-rape-charge-dismissed-years-prison-accuser-contacts-Facebook-say-happened.html

 

[Canadish]

Unfortunately, there ARE gender issues that impact everyone in some way. Therefore, they need to be discussed until they really are no longer a problem. Burying your head in the sand never solves anything.

*Simpsons reference* + "Can we have one single day without a thread like this = OMG WE SHALL NEVER DISCUSS THIS AGAIN NEVER FUCK INEQUALITY IT DOESN'T EXIST!

Apparently.

It's serious stuff and it gets people passionate and invested.
I've not been on the site for about a month and this is the one of the first threads I've seen about it. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Just ignore them bro and the trend will pass. (For what it's worth, I always appreciate a classic Simpsons reference.)

 

[axlryder]

I'll tell you what I tell every other naysayer who says there's no such thing as justifiable rape: a villain has planted a nuclear bomb that is set to kill countless people, and the deactivation remote (a button that must be pressed several times over) has been inserted into a woman's vagina. The only one who can stop it is a pantsless, armless individual. He has managed to find the woman, but has only a minute to deactivate the bomb. He has but one option. The woman does not wish to be penetrated. What then, huh? Hear that? That's the sound of justification.

I wish I could write the yawning, sucking, vaginal noise that you deserve as your death due to your writing of that paragraph.

Onomatopoeia is sadly lacking in this case. Perhaps the readership should come up with something appropriate.

Now now, bro, no need to be a sore loser. Thankfully, the readership likely won't get so butthurt as to play along with such a deranged request.

 

[Jerkules]

Not being snarky here, genuine interest;

What kinds of direct advantages does one get for being straight, white and male in America (outside of obvious industries like in Hollywood)?

Lots of things.

If you're white you're treated differently by police, judges, teachers, and social workers, and on average you're given less harsh sentences for any given crime. You're more likely to be called back for a job than an equally qualified applicant of another race.

I'm sure I don't have to explain to you how being a man (which I am) gets you better treatment pretty much everywhere in the world, especially in much of the Middle East, Asia, and Africa.

If you're straight you can get married to someone you love, in every state.

A false rape charge is pretty damn serious.
edit: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2149462/Brian-Banks-One-time-football-star-rape-charge-dismissed-years-prison-accuser-contacts-Facebook-say-happened.html

For an individual, sure. (I was aware of Brian Banks and what he's been through.) In the aggregate? No, not really. Rape is and has always been a much, much, much more prevalent issue than false rape accusations. The latter gets so much attention in the media and culture in general, because it's something that scares men in a reactionary sort of way, not because it's actually prevalent in comparison to rape.

Getting maimed or killed by a shark is certainly a big deal for the person it actually happens to, but that doesn't change the fact that shark attacks are rare, and people kill sharks a hell of a lot more often than sharks kill people.

 

[Jerkules]

Considering that the only defense you will ever need if you are truly innocent is: "Nu-uh." Yes, it is all of those things and more.

You... seem to be agreeing with me, but your wording makes your meaning rather ambiguous.

 

[Darkmantle]

It's not ambiguous to me, that's the thing. The guy I was replying to is stating that I should have literal verbal consent, because apparently men can't read body language.

Funny, because the post you quoted reads in part:

It doesn't even have to be verbal when it comes to a partner (though it does still need to be consensual), if the girl is as eager to get your pants off as you are hers and is mad for your cock, consent is pretty much given.

So, uh, glad to hear you're on board with the whole "let's be decent human beings" thing.

hm......

that's not what I remember reading at all... But it's there...

well I guess I just lost the ability to read briefly, my apologies.

 

[Darkmantle]

Ultra-snip

You know I think we're talking about two different aspects of this. I was talking legally, and you were talking socially, if that makes any sense. I was considering what would be able to be held up in court, and you were talking in general, kinda deal. I do agree with you, obviously I would know if my gf was into it or however you want to put it, and I would stop and question, I'm not an asshole. However I take issue with the "tough shit" legal side you seem to try and push. A justice system that works on the principle of "deal with it" is not a very just system.

honestly I think the solution to that problem would be a change in... well I guess you could call it culture. Stop making rape victims feel isolated, so that they will go to the authorities earlier and get a rape kit done, all this fun stuff. The solution is not, as some would have you believe to make the definition of rape so loose that any man can be convicted

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Ultra-snip

You know I think we're talking about two different aspects of this. I was talking legally, and you were talking socially, if that makes any sense. I was considering what would be able to be held up in court, and you were talking in general, kinda deal. I do agree with you, obviously I would know if my gf was into it or however you want to put it, and I would stop and question, I'm not an asshole. However I take issue with the "tough shit" legal side you seem to try and push. A justice system that works on the principle of "deal with it" is not a very just system.

honestly I think the solution to that problem would be a change in... well I guess you could call it culture. Stop making rape victims feel isolated, so that they will go to the authorities earlier and get a rape kit done, all this fun stuff. The solution is not, as some would have you believe to make the definition of rape so loose that any man can be convicted

Sorry I got into a rant, so I spoilered it... I'm slightly agitated due to weather, medication and some awfully bad attitudes on this topic. I should take a few weeks break from this site.

Spoiler: Again, sorry...

But its not a justice system, despite what the states like to label it. When you are in court, you are in a court of LAW... not justice. Justice is a concept we strive for and god damn it some of us really try. In practice we get law.

Law is informal and conditional, it's also highly political and rife with flaws. The letter of the Law is also incredibly convoluted and can be fiddled, like any other system in place.

Justice is fair, where the punishment fits the crime and the victim (if present) gets vindication without dirtying themselves doing so.

See the example of that asian girl in texas who had to spend 1 night in jail and given a record (unless that was changed) because she missed school... while working several jobs trying to provide for her younger siblings who were ditched by their parents after a divorce. Oh yeah, and she was an honour student. That wasn't fair, but the letter of the law saw it as punishable and that asshat of a judge enforced it.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/houston11news-15750765/honor-student-placed-in-jail-for-tardiness-and-truancy-at-school-29458964.html

Don't get me wrong, Law tries to be fair. But it isn't always fair in practice. There is a reason why you can pick up a paper and go "jesus, how does that gigantic, completely unsubtle company get away with stuff so blatantly wrong". The answer is 2 fold... law is not a moral compass and doesn't stop blatantly underhanded actions nor does it reinforce good natured actions, and law is highly malleable when you have plenty of money. This is not cynicism, this is truth.

Law is a tool available to ANYONE. Justice is what people demand from law, but law can only give you a trial, a conviction (or dismissal) and a sentence/warning. This may be justice if you are an honest man wrongly accused (or a victim seeking a conviction of a criminal), but a creep who gets away with something through law will call it the same thing.

Though I wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph. There is something awful (many things in fact) in our contemporary culture that seems to just pile on the pressure for victims of rape. And a scorched earth policy (all men are potential rapists) is definitely not a just stance when seeking true justice. Though again, referring to my rant, it doesn't mean that law can't grossly generalise and make it so a victim of wrongful accusation doesn't get royally screwed because of a heart wrenching melodrama of a court case.

Just as an afterthought. The only figures in law that can get you justice is your lawyer. The jury is only there as a neutral party to be swayed by the words of lawyers and a judge is only there to keep order and, of course, pass judgement. The problem is your lawyer isn't there out of the goodness of his heart or on a crusade to protect the innocent.

Again, law isn't fair.

 

[xshadowscreamx]

im looking ford to tomb raider.......all of a sudden rape is everywhere after the showing of tomb raider at E3

 

[subtlefuge]

*Sigh*

Can we please stop talking about rape. Please. Just for one day.

This is what The Escapist would look like without gender issue threads.

Only if all gender issues were resolved and no one ever needed to discuss it again.

Unfortunately, there ARE gender issues that impact everyone in some way. Therefore, they need to be discussed until they really are no longer a problem. Burying your head in the sand never solves anything.

The big issue is that these threads are no longer off-topic. In fact, they are so on topic that the Escapist could easily be a shallow gender issue based website for people who enjoy games as a hobby.

 

[Ultrajoe]

The other problem with that is that the current attitude held is that "Only Men can rape" and to suddenly have it so that all sex is illegal unless the girl agrees later that it was consentual...it's going to leave men paranoid about having causal sex because he might be getting into bed with "that girl" who's vindictive monster who has the legal power to ruin his life at a whim.

That's just not a healthy thing for people to constantly have to worry about.
Sex doesn't need to be anymore terrifying for a guy, on top of the fear of getting a girl pregnant, or performance issues, or whether he'll mess up.

It's shit, but sexual fear is everywhere in society. Think rape accusations are scary? Rape itself is scarier. For women in the casual dating scene (and pretty much everywhere else), it's also a real and worrying threat. I agree, sexual fears are not healthy for people to be constantly worrying about, but as it stands they're out there for everybody. I'm not saying this to devalue what you've said, because what you've said is important, but rather I want to add on that with how society handles sex, the whole thing is pretty damn scary for everybody.

But this is why consent is so important. This is why you should make sure you get a 'Yes', 'Oh god yes' or 'MORE! YES! FUCKING HELL, YES!' every time you have sex. With a long term partner, trust and experience can let this be as simple as a body signal. Worried about sleeping with somebody who will abuse your trust? Make sure you have their consent, make sure they're comfortable and that they're sane before you even undo your belt. If you don't feel safe having sex with this person, then you can say no as well, your consent is just as important. Every worry you listed above is real and important, and if you're having any of them before sex, you should think about whether you really consent to sex with this person. It's not just about your partner's comfort! Protect yourself; If your partner isn't horny, happy and as ready as you are (Or if you're not as rarin' to go as them!) don't press on regardless, because there is a lot to worry about with sex, and consent and understanding are the only real defenses. I say all this in general, rather than directed at you Canadish, as I have no idea about your sex life and I wandered off topic a bit. I'd hope it was good advice for everyone regardless.

Let's face it, do you really want to have sex with somebody reluctant? That's shitty sex right there. In the name of awesome fucking and sexual safety, make sure to get that loud, clear Yes. Consent should be something we strive for, because true consent is the best defense against most of what we fear from sex. Consent isn't something you should try to get so you can prove your innocence in a courtroom, consent is something you should make damn sure you have so you never worry about ending up in one.

Also, happy sex is best sex.

TL;DR - It doesn't matter if her 'not saying no' means yes or not if your standard for good, safe, awesome sex is a loud and clear 'YES!, however that may be communicated (and if you don't know this person well, ask and make sure no matter what!). It's safer, it's funner-er! It's sexier! Seriously, what's not to love? Unsure sex is shitty, anyway.

 

[thebakedpotato]

Snippy Snippy

I can be fired for being gay. Legally. As a white straight man... le gasp, you're not going fired for being straight.

"Everyone else" implys that you have to work in a fast food locale, dealing with a customer who says he comes to your place because the other is staffed by "faggots" and have to serve them and not punch them in the face. Because if you make it an issue. You're fired. Because your managers are all bigoted fucks.

Straight white men are the "default" everyone else is the "defect." And that's just ingrained in our society. Our media. And our internet message boards where man children who want to pretend to be in the "chip on the shoulder" club can cry out reverse discrimination and get a mob to agree with them.