Just because she isn?t saying no doesn?t mean she is saying yes

[chaos order]

*Sigh*

Can we please stop talking about rape. Please. Just for one day.

This is what The Escapist would look like without gender issue threads.

replace everyone with cynical atheists and ya pretty much. also no ones smiling

 

[mrhappy1489]

You do have a point. Right now there's a bit of a double standard. But... alas... That is not going to be solved in our generation.

It isn't equal. Because currently, the genders aren't equal. Don't agree? What would you think of a man who wore a dress in public?
It is because we as a society continue to adhere to gender roles and currently are only starting to allow for deviation and blending from those "proper" roles that the double standard is applied. And you know what? That's fine. Humanity currently is undergoing rapid change and everything else is having to catch up. Including gender roles and sexual roles and society blah blah blah hippy bullshit.

Anyway... Yeah, there's a bit of a double standard. However until the reason why there is a double standard is fully addressed. It will continue to serve to protect folks.
White straight men don't really need much protecting. They're white. They're men. They're straight. They get all the doors opened pretty much for them. Them fucking up... Is kinda on them.

I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say all fucking up is on them, but I do agree with what you have said. I'll also add that really, it is just the other genders, races, sexualities catching up after years of being behind and we'll just have to put up with it until there is no more need for it. Like you said, most likely it won't be in our lifetimes, but at some point in history it will change, I don't ever think we'll get a utopian society were everyone is treated with the same respect as those around him, but it'll get close enough, hopefully.

 

[thebakedpotato]

White straight men don't really need much protecting. They're white. They're men. They're straight. They get all the doors opened pretty much for them. Them fucking up... Is kinda on them.

Okay, I did totally listen to your whole point and I agree, but I am so gonna steal that line.

It's yours.

I mean... sure it's 2012... But let's be honest with ourselves. Men get ahead more than woman on average. Whites get ahead more than other folks. And straights get ahead more than gays. (Except in theater and fashion... we have that shit knocked down.)

 

[Thaluikhain]

Which again, relies on the assumption that only men are either capable of rape or have ever raped someone.

No, it doesn't. Saying a man is a rapist if he penetrates someone without their consent has got nothing to do with teh existence of female rapists.

Not if any bitter person in an failed relationship can turn around and claim rape.

Generally this doesn't happen, but there are as many nutcases out there as there are rapists.

The other problem with that is that the current attitude held is that "Only Men can rape" and to suddenly have it so that all sex is illegal unless the girl agrees later that it was consentual...it's going to leave men paranoid about having causal sex because he might be getting into bed with "that girl" who's vindictive monster who has the legal power to ruin his life at a whim.

That's just not a healthy thing for people to constantly have to worry about.
Sex doesn't need to be anymore terrifying for a guy, on top of the fear of getting a girl pregnant, or performance issues, or whether he'll mess up.

We don't want a situation like Japan where men have just given up dealing with women.

Firstly, the number of actual rapes is much higher than the number of false accusations.

Secondly, well, yes, men will have to worry more about being accused if they choose to have sex. Women will have to worry less about raped, which is a much bigger serious problem throughout the world.

All you have to do to avoid false accusations is to avoid having sex with anyone that might accuse you. But there's no way for people to avoid being raped.

 

[BRex21]

Not being snarky here, genuine interest;

What kinds of direct advantages does one get for being straight, white and male in America (outside of obvious industries like in Hollywood)?

Lots of things.

If you're white you're treated differently by police, judges, teachers, and social workers, and on average you're given less harsh sentences for any given crime. You're more likely to be called back for a job than an equally qualified applicant of another race.

I'm sure I don't have to explain to you how being a man (which I am) gets you better treatment pretty much everywhere in the world, especially in much of the Middle East, Asia, and Africa.

If you're straight you can get married to someone you love, in every state.

Being white is FAR less advantageous than being female, Women face far shorter sentences in relation to men than whites do to black and the rates of proven false incarcerations by the Innocence Project in the US place rates of whites above all other nationalities short of African American. It also labels women as less than 1% of false convictions. Yet its borderline blasphemy to suggest that this is part of some privilege or special treatment.

Better still if you're a male victim of a woman, be it assault, sexual assault, rape, pretty much anything, the chances are pretty high you will just be laughed at. If you want to pull the argument that "women raping is rare" consider that studies across American universities (like this one http://www.springerlink.com/content/h4038x61400l8273/?p=f4627938f6ee449bad67bc5f803aebf8&MUD=MP)show that almost 10% of women have forced a partner into sex and another 5% have tried.
Men can be forced to pay their ex wives for not sexually satisfying them, Men can be forced to pay rapists who mother their child. In 2 US states minors can be arrested for failing to pay child support to their adult rapists. But men are obviously privileged right? that's why they get no support?
Besides being male in many third world countries carries very similar risks, just in the western world we don't care. Boys have been stoned to death for the wrong haircuts (http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/iraqi-teenagers-stoned-death-emo-haircuts?page=11) and often sons are executed as perceived punishments for the sins of parents. Of course this is just Benevolent sexism for women right?

A false rape charge is pretty damn serious.
edit: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2149462/Brian-Banks-One-time-football-star-rape-charge-dismissed-years-prison-accuser-contacts-Facebook-say-happened.html

For an individual, sure. (I was aware of Brian Banks and what he's been through.) In the aggregate? No, not really. Rape is and has always been a much, much, much more prevalent issue than false rape accusations. The latter gets so much attention in the media and culture in general, because it's something that scares men in a reactionary sort of way, not because it's actually prevalent in comparison to rape.

Getting maimed or killed by a shark is certainly a big deal for the person it actually happens to, but that doesn't change the fact that shark attacks are rare, and people kill sharks a hell of a lot more often than sharks kill people.

False rape claims are just reactionary fear? What about new laws that are still trying to be pushed through that essentially end due process for men accused in the US? would arguing against that just be reactionary fear? or viable public service? Is expecting our basic civil rights to be upheld just a bunch of scared little men whining?
What about cab drivers who are disproportionately targeted? should they not be allowed to turn down customers based on their fear? what is the amount of instance of a crime before you can take steps to protect yourself? ViCLAS in Canada finds rates of provably false claims jump in any jurisdiction that implements regulations for cameras in taxis from the usual average of 4% up to about 10% and with either of these numbers you are looking at tens of thousands of provably false claims.
False accusations usually get LESS press, unless they have been pushed as a viable rape case beforehand, strait up false reports do often get media play in the back of the A or something section but are virtually never front page news.

 

[BRex21]

All you have to do to avoid false accusations is to avoid having sex with anyone that might accuse you.

Or avoid dealing with anyone who will use a false rape claim to their advantage like this guy who had women try to steal his car with a rape lie:
http://northcountrynow.com/news/two-potsdam-women-accused-threatening-accuse-man-rape-if-he-didnt-give-them-car-030366
Or this man who just happened to be near an upset woman?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1184989/Court-rules-taxi-driver-falsely-accused-rape-receive-compensation-legal-first.html
Or this guy who was in the general vicinity of the city in which the woman lived
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1048754/Binge-drinking-mother-jailed-crying-rape-devout-Muslim-taxi-driver.html

But there's no way for people to avoid being raped.

Often there are ways to better protect yourself like going out in groups with friends, avoiding binge drinking and ensuring people know you are not planning to leave with anyone. Of course this would be "victim blaming"
There are also Drink-spike testing kits, however the education programs about these, (IE which ones work, how to use them) was pulled from most universities as THIS was victim blaming.
More often than not the "there is no way a woman can avoid being raped" argument just seems to generalize and ignore many of the realities of this being a crime of opportunity.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Often there are ways to better protect yourself like going out in groups with friends, avoiding binge drinking and ensuring people know you are not planning to leave with anyone.

That sounds like decent ways to stop men being accused of rape. Why shouldn't men do that then?

 

[BRex21]

Often there are ways to better protect yourself like going out in groups with friends, avoiding binge drinking and ensuring people know you are not planning to leave with anyone.

That sounds like decent ways to stop men being accused of rape. Why shouldn't men do that then?

Going out in a group is ineffective as friend can often simply be called unreliable witnesses or, as in multiple cases listed above the accused didn't need to be in the same room as the accuser.
Being drunk will also do nothing to protect you from a false accusation for the same reasons because it is simply not a crime of opportunity.
and just because you walked out of the door alone cant prove you didnt meet the girl after, or follow her home or any number of thing.

These are in fact, the exact opposite of decent ways to stop men being accused of rape.

 

[Kyber]

Rape is rather a smart way of stealing, because you don't have to give back what you stole, unless the one you raped rapes you, which has happened, from what i have read.
OT: I'm getting really bored of these threads, they're really raping the front page...
GET IT?

 

[Labyrinth]

TL;DR - It doesn't matter if her 'not saying no' means yes or not if your standard for good, safe, awesome sex is a loud and clear 'YES!, however that may be communicated (and if you don't know this person well, ask and make sure no matter what!). It's safer, it's funner-er! It's sexier! Seriously, what's not to love? Unsure sex is shitty, anyway.

I agree with this, but feel that some needs to be added.

Consent should include provision for experimentation. "Yes oh god yes" or whatever understanding of that type exists between the people involved needs to allow for "shall we try this? If there's something that is The Bads, we'll stop." It also needs to allow for "My brain is saying yes, definitely, but it'll take about 10 minutes to convince my body to play along." The latter is somewhat more.. complex, because "My body is saying yes but it will take about 10 minutes for my brain to play along," strikes me as something that could easily become a recipe for disaster unless there's some serious understanding going on and serious provision for "this isn't working. Enough." Which of course requires that everyone involved understand that it's okay for there to need to be that 10 minutes of effort to convince the brain in situations x and y, but probably not in z.

It gets really convoluted really quickly. Which is part of why I agree that there's a serious problem with the way that our culture teaches, and understands consent. Consent to me isn't a card handed to ones playmate/s at the start of an encounter but an ongoing process of understanding, trust and communication which allows for quibbles such as "more of this" and "a little to the right" or "Ride it hard into the sunset, pikachu!" as well as the withdrawing of consent in a safe way.

Another gripe I have about how we consider consent is that there's never any situation where how to negotiate consent is discussed. It takes at least some self-confidence, self-worth and self-awareness to negotiate around sex. The less of these you have, the more difficult it becomes to assert your own boundaries and desires, even if they're just curiosity about how that whole sex thing works. The skills of negotiation take time and practice to develop. Practicing saying no in some very staged roleplay scripts is useful, even important (I did this in sex ed at school) but it loses out on so much else that is essential.

I'm pretty sure I've forgotten to say some things I meant to. I may edit them in later.

 

[MyFooThurTS]

go to a men's shelter, or men's only club, and ask them about the kinds of attention they've been getting from women's rights groups and from legal institutions.

Would e count for those "men's clubs." How about a gay bar?

Honestly... Who campaigned for the rights of straight white men? Theodore Roosevelt. Taft. The East India Company. Honestly that line is of the same ilk as "How come there's not a white history month?" there are white history months, they're March through January.
The organization that advances white men is simply society itself. It's white men who make the dollar that the 75 cents of women, and 50 cents of black men get next to it. It's white males who get to look down from the other side of the glass ceiling.

It's white men who don't have to worry about rape. Or about being beaten and left for dead tied to a rail. Or murdered in city hall. And it's white straight men who don't have to worry about the people who do those things to them getting little more than a slap on the wrist for their crimes.

White straight men are the "default" the "standard." You're rights aren't being taken away. You're just having to compete with the rest of us for the first time without being able to use discrimination against them to stay on top.

You could help yourself a lot by doing some more research. These persons, institutions, you're naming, are not contemporary. I asked you to name any institution which was so active in having men elevated in their standing, and all made to wither under them. There's none of it, not any more - white men are not getting doors opened for them any longer. It's cute that you're strapping yourself down to examples from, what, a century ago? They're not even good examples, past or present. Not going to go into why - they're no longer relevant enough for me to do that. Look into pay-gap statistics between men and women UNDER 30, and kindly read it out to the class. There are two reasons why the pay gap increases after that point - people of older traditions, who've chosen more dichotomous careers/lifestyles, and the event of pregnancy taxing the woman's practical ability to earn those wages. Your rebuttal against my point about the defamation of men's only clubs, and men's shelters, was preposterous - rude, non-sequitur, assumptive, and preposterous. No, friend, I was not including your 'midtowne spa' or your 'gay bar' - I said men's shelters; men's only clubs. There are damn-far less of these than women's only organizations nowadays, and people feel that it's still right to take legal action, political action, against these organizations.

'Being beaten and left for dead and tied to a rail'? Are you insane? First, men are murdered a fuck-lot more than women. Is this some individual case you've heard about where some woman had this happen to her? Because I'm goddamn dubious if you're claiming that, if you were to scan the history of rails and figure out for me how many men, as opposed to women, were tied to them and crushed underneath, you'd find a higher number of women. No, kid, that just doesn't make any goddamn sense and I don't know why you're bringing it up. We don't have to worry about our assaulters getting nothing more than a slap on the wrist? You're being hyperbolical, but I am damn-well not when say that I'd be glad if my assaulters got as much as a slap on the wrist. Had my crotch grabbed in public by women, been hit, slapped, kicked, kissed without asking - put me in Sweden and reverse the genders of me and ex of mine, and I'm a victim of systematic raping. A friend of mine had a girl tie him up and plan to carve 'liar' on his chest - he's paid out for that fact to date. Oh, my, aren't we so damnably privileged, having all the West cry 'oppressor' at us - aren't you ever left wondering why white men are so busy about killing themselves?

I use discrimination to keep on top of you? In brief, as rudely as possible, fuck you. Did you read my post at all? I'm gay, I'm not one of your hegemonic oppressors. None of that, though, means that I'm going to restrain my compassion for another demographic. So, as we're talking about 'society itself', I'm expecting better of you than to argue 'but it's men who are doing the killing, the repressing, who are upholding the dichotomous and hegemonic structures' - men are reinforcing the controls society has on them, and could do a lot more to challenge them, but they are the victims.