Just can't facepalm hard enough.

[Space Spoons]

lol, that is ridiculous

It is true though. Not a lot of people know the dark sides of history.

I know the dark side, I'm just okay with it. A more powerful civilization pimp-slapped a less powerful civilization. Welcome to the world, here's your ticket, go get it punched.

I can understand the point they're making, but I gotta say, it's a really slippery slope. If you're going to follow that logic, why not reconsider Valentine's Day because the priest Valentine was actually a war criminal? Why not reconsider Independence Day because many of the founding fathers owned slaves?

That said, I do think a nationally recognized holiday for the indigenous people of our nation is warranted. Our country was founded in the bloodshed of these people, and that's something we can't change. I don't think it's unreasonable to, at the very least, show them the respect in modern times that we didn't show them in the past.

Why in the world would we celebrate the losers of a war? We took land from people and forged a civilization. That's how the world works. Rome didn't have a day to celebrate any of the people (Carthage, for instance) it subjugated. We've also provided a better standard of living for Native Americans (and the descendants of slaves) than they'd get almost anywhere else.

We won a war, we don't celebrate the losers.

We should celebrate the culture of the nation's indigenous people because we, the modern Americans, are a better class of people than the bullies and brutes that founded the nation. They're human beings, dude, and they deserve all the respect and dignity we'd give any other people.

 

[ottenni]

From the point of view of a non-american, may i ask why you celebrate Columbus day?

And my only insight is that as human beings that if it were our ancestors we would be saying the same thing.

 

[Mysterious Stranger]

From the point of view of a non-american, may i ask why you celebrate Columbus day?

And my only insight is that as human beings that if it were our ancestors we would be saying the same thing.

Because it's so damn hard to disestablish a holiday?
That's the only reason I can think of.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Ever person in history did something bad. Does that mean that we should never get a day off because every day is either for someone or made by someone. As a matter of a fact we're all people and thus have done something bad, we should never get a day off!

Actually Columbus was a pretty horrid I have no idea why he's been idealized. Still Columbus day has always been an excuse to give people a day off.

 

[rex922]

the word fail cant describe its level of failure
as far as holidays go this probably has to be phased out

 

[Kurokami]

Well yeah we should TOTALLY celebrate Cortez instead... way more badass. (just watch El Dorado)
I also like the whole "started slavery", sure Columbus (FUN FACT: who was under the impression the world was about to end) was a dick but he didn't invent slavery.

You get my admiration simply for mentioning the movie. (better have liked it, >=O)

 

[gorunmezadam]

How about renaming it "Be thankful we didn't slaughter every last fething one of you day"
They should make that a world wide thing to all the little races still crying over what happened hundreds of years ago. Shit that their ancestors no doubt did to other races.

it's unfair that some nations take responsibility/pay the price and some don't. some are obviously "more equal than others"

I think those people are right, and their message is put forward eloquent and simple enough that I can't add anything more, regarding why they are right.

 

[Jamous]

God damned Americans, just be fucking happy you get another holiday! Don't complain!

Very, very true.

 

[AvsJoe]

Everything I wanted to say about this has already been covered in this thread, like whether or not we should reconsider other holidays because the people we honour were also criminals, or that Guy Fox day and remembering the Boston Tea Party celebrate the actions of terrorists.

...But all this doesn't matter to me since I'm celebrating Canadian Thanksgiving instead of Columbus Day. Mmmm, dead mutilated pigs and turkeys are so delicious, n'est pas?

 

[gorunmezadam]

AvsJoe, I don't think you would find many people agreeing with what Columbus did, as opposed to the examples you've given. Every Independence holiday in the world is the result of a criminal act according to the party that lost. But war is different than crime, and not all crimes are equal.

 

[JoshGod]

erm its oct 13 so ha
anyway i dont care i dont have a go at the way the irish used to be treated
the potatoe famine was just the worst thing to befall a nation
i mean common thats all we eat!!
(well what did we used to have with potatoes?
.... more potatoes)

EDIT: POTATOE FAMINE DAY!!
does that get a bigger facepalm??

 

[Pegghead]

That is just, just...

Look, the fact of the matter is, these people probably don't care either way. I've seen this sort of thing happen before, all these people want is attention and money.

 

[murphy7801]

Most public holidays are flawed like this in one way or another, though in my opinion this one is pointless enough for the flaws to tip the balance. Yes, he moved his group of Europeans to the Americas, but we don't have a public holiday in Australia to commemorate the first boatload of prisoners to be dropped off on the shore, do we?

hahaha well true perhaps should in some kinda sick twisted joke

 

[Xskill]

Yes, yes, there was a lot of pain back then, BUT IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO, AND NOW THAT EVERYTHING IS GOOD AGAIN, NO BODY CARES ANYMORE.

It's a bad idea to open new wounds.


P.S: I'm Irish, so I can say stuff like this.

 

[Seldon2639]

We should celebrate the culture of the nation's indigenous people because we, the modern Americans, are a better class of people than the bullies and brutes that founded the nation. They're human beings, dude, and they deserve all the respect and dignity we'd give any other people.

You make two points: "we should celebrate the culture of the nation's indigenous people" and "they deserve all the respect and dignity we'd give any other people". I accept the second without question, but I don't accept its relation to the first.

We can respect, and give dignity, to the Native Americans without celebrating a culture which (frankly) was stagnant and lacked the ability to innovate and evolve to meet the challenges posed by modernity. The fact that the people who would come to form America were the agents of their fall does not make Americans responsible for the failures of culture and technology that led the Native Americans to ruin (and continue to). The Gothic tribes of Scandinavia didn't honor to culture of the fallen Romans, nor did the Franks honor the culture of the Gothic tribes. The history of the world is that a stronger, more advanced, culture will destroy a weaker one. That's simple fact. To turn back the clock and say anything even sounding like "oops, our bad" is to ignore and denigrate the only thing which has propelled human development: conflict.

 

[Fumbles]

We should celebrate the culture of the nation's indigenous people because we, the modern Americans, are a better class of people than the bullies and brutes that founded the nation. They're human beings, dude, and they deserve all the respect and dignity we'd give any other people.

You make two points: "we should celebrate the culture of the nation's indigenous people" and "they deserve all the respect and dignity we'd give any other people". I accept the second without question, but I don't accept its relation to the first.

We can respect, and give dignity, to the Native Americans without celebrating a culture which (frankly) was stagnant and lacked the ability to innovate and evolve to meet the challenges posed by modernity. The fact that the people who would come to form America were the agents of their fall does not make Americans responsible for the failures of culture and technology that led the Native Americans to ruin (and continue to). The Gothic tribes of Scandinavia didn't honor to culture of the fallen Romans, nor did the Franks honor the culture of the Gothic tribes. The history of the world is that a stronger, more advanced, culture will destroy a weaker one. That's simple fact. To turn back the clock and say anything even sounding like "oops, our bad" is to ignore and denigrate the only thing which has propelled human development: conflict.

Actually the "Gothic Tribes of Scandinavia" did respect the Roman culture, and by Roman culture you mean the Byzantine Empire, that was more heavily "Greek" then "Roman". Even though the Romans were a more technologically enhanced civilization, they predominately spoke Greek, and assimilated the Greek religion. Therefore your statement is A:Incorrect and B:Asinine. Historically the "superior" culture just steals ideas from the weaker. The idea that conflict is the only deterrent of anthropological evolution is somewhat true, but in general a complete misinterpretation of History.

 

[Seldon2639]

Actually the "Gothic Tribes of Scandinavia" did respect the Roman culture, and by Roman culture you mean the Byzantine Empire, that was more heavily "Greek" then "Roman". Even though the Romans were a more technologically enhanced civilization, they predominately spoke Greek, and assimilated the Greek religion. Therefore your statement is A:Incorrect and B:Asinine. Historically the "superior" culture just steals ideas from the weaker. The idea that conflict is the only deterrent of anthropological evolution is somewhat true, but in general a complete misinterpretation of History.

Byzantium was the descendant of the Eastern Roman Empire after the schism created by the Visigoths' attacks. If what you mean is that the descendants of the groups that helped foster the fall of the Roman empire formed a cordial relationship with the descendant of a splinter of the empire which still existed, that's a completely different point. Remember, incidentally, that the Byzantine empire was also much influenced by more eastern civilizations. Incidentally, did the Turks give a rats ass about Constantinople (originally Byzantium) when they took over?

You also confuse two issues: the integration of "ideas" from "weaker" civilizations (which I didn't touch upon at all), and the acquisition of land (which I did talk about). Whatever influence Native American (and African) cultures had on the development of America, the major arguments about American 'atrocities' have much more to do with the acquisition of land and the slave trade than anything involving cultural influence.

If the Native Americans want credit for influencing our national identity, they get the same credit as any other part of our tapestry of nationalities and ethnicity. What riles me is the idea that they should get extra accolades for having lost their land to an invading force.

Your misrepresentation of my point is both annoying and fallacious. I could give a damn, frankly, about any cultural influence, since that's irrelevant. Native Americans want some special notice of the fact that they were invaded, and lost.

 

[TeaBaggin]

Actually the "Gothic Tribes of Scandinavia" did respect the Roman culture, and by Roman culture you mean the Byzantine Empire, that was more heavily "Greek" then "Roman". Even though the Romans were a more technologically enhanced civilization, they predominately spoke Greek, and assimilated the Greek religion. Therefore your statement is A:Incorrect and B:Asinine. Historically the "superior" culture just steals ideas from the weaker. The idea that conflict is the only deterrent of anthropological evolution is somewhat true, but in general a complete misinterpretation of History.

Byzantium was the descendant of the Eastern Roman Empire after the schism created by the Visigoths' attacks. If what you mean is that the descendants of the groups that helped foster the fall of the Roman empire formed a cordial relationship with the descendant of a splinter of the empire which still existed, that's a completely different point. Remember, incidentally, that the Byzantine empire was also much influenced by more eastern civilizations. Incidentally, did the Turks give a rats ass about Constantinople (originally Byzantium) when they took over?

You also confuse two issues: the integration of "ideas" from "weaker" civilizations (which I didn't touch upon at all), and the acquisition of land (which I did talk about). Whatever influence Native American (and African) cultures had on the development of America, the major arguments about American 'atrocities' have much more to do with the acquisition of land and the slave trade than anything involving cultural influence.

If the Native Americans want credit for influencing our national identity, they get the same credit as any other part of our tapestry of nationalities and ethnicity. What riles me is the idea that they should get extra accolades for having lost their land to an invading force.

Your misrepresentation of my point is both annoying and fallacious. I could give a damn, frankly, about any cultural influence, since that's irrelevant. Native Americans want some special notice of the fact that they were invaded, and lost.

OOH BURNED!! /thread