KB+M and gamepads for gaming. Why is there such an issue with either being switched?

[Another]

You must be talking to morons.

As far as I'm concerned having both kb+m and a pc compatible controller is essential, particularly since some ports have really terrible kb+m controls. For example, even with the DSFix I still use a controller for Dark Souls, you can tell it was designed with a controller in mind. Same thing for platformers or anything that functions better with analogue movement.

The beauty of PC gaming controls is not the use of kb+m but the ability to use anything you want. kb+m, fight pads, controllers, race wheels, flight sticks, even hacked Kinects. Use whatever feels good or fun.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Ever since I've been in the PC gaming scene, there have been numerous times that I have been pretty much ridiculed for using a gamepad with pretty much any PC game compatible with one. I get rude remarks and treated as a moron when I ask if a game supports a gamepad, and I'm called "a dirty console peasant" by quite a few people.

People say that without a shred of irony?

Personally, my favorite FPS control scheme is half a controller(because I can't find the PC equivalent of the wii nunchuck) and a mouse. Sadly, Valve seems to be among the only companies that allow for a controller and mouse to be used simultaneously.


Hotkeys aren't really an issue as my mouse has a few buttons to spare(though I've run into many games that don't recognize the buttons unless I configure it to be something common like middle mouse click) and the available buttons on the controller like L1, L2, L3 and the d-pad if necessary.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Edit: This is the attitude that pisses me off most about the whole KB/M vs. Controller thing. PC players saying K/M is just flat out better because this one time they tried a game with a controller and it was so bad they couldn't do it. No, it's not the controller thats bad, it's you. No shit you're not as good with a controller as you are with KB/M, you play with a KB/M most of the time!

The only exception to this is, as others have said, competetive multiplayer games :- FPS and strategy games in favour of KB/M and fighting games in favour of controllers.

No PC player thinks that a kb+m is the be all and end all. Idiots who conform to PC elitism they do though, of course they do say stuff like that. It would be silly for them not to think that.

OT: Are you playing a game with a competitive focus using a sub optimal set up? If no they're idiots and you should ignore them. If you are well they're probably just ass hats. While Kb+M may be better for stuff like FPS games doesn't mean you have to use it. Same as while controllers may be better for 3d platformers/platformers with analog controls.

I play competitive games with KB/M most of the time, but there are a few games where I hold my own very well, and even excel other players, when using a controller. And those games didn't even have any type of auto-aim or aim-assist in them. I played Planetside 2 with a gamepad perfectly fine for the longest time because my keyboard wasn't working right then.

Were you playing for fun in those games and were you playing those games competitively? If yes and no that's fine. Also just because you can play a game like that perfectly fine with a controller doesn't mean you should if you are doing it seriously and have the option for using KB+M. Same as I can play Crash Bandicoot, SF and various other games with a KB+M(or just kb) on emulators but that doesn't mean KB+M is equal to even in the remotest fashion to thumb sticks for 3d movement or arcade stick, etc.

 

[Something Amyss]

My question is why do you care about their opinion? Some games are simply easier to use with a gamepad. Try driving in Just Cause 2 without a gamepad. It's just a matter of preference.

The reason he cares is because he's curious as to why people scream like you just asked if you could murder their parents slowly and brutally when you ask if there's controller support for a game.

It doesn't matter if it's sometimes "better," because we have a bunch of hyper-defensive, hateful and abusive kids who are so intolerant as to get angry over something as trivial as someone else's choice of input.

I've seen it go as far as "go kill yourself," which is a pretty extreme reaction under the best circumstances.

See, I view both these things to exist under a similar mentality: that of what's 'traditional'. There are any number of practical benefits to controller over keyboard and mouse, but the purists will say it's wrong because it's not the way it's always been done; there are obvious benefits to an IP spreading itself across multiple platforms, but fanboys will get upset because the game 'doesn't belong on other systems'.

Maybe I am oversimplifying it, but I think these two camps do have a lot in common, mentally, even if their motivations aren't identical.

I'm not sure it is traditional, though I fully concede I could be wrong here. This is sort of a grey area, admittedly.

Skyrim is my prime example, there are so many things I wish I could do in it that aren't an options because of the limitation of a controller. EG button mapping limitations.

I want to play as a Gandalf-esq character, which in Skyrim in all its forms including modded is so far impossible.

What I wish I could do is have my Staff and Sword in hand and it works base like dual wield but the staff has no power attack, holding blocks\deflects but push BOTH buttons and it's a combo swing like Gandalf did on the walls of Minas Tirth. With using the staffs ability *Fire ball, frost, lighting, etc* With a dedicated CAST button like Oblivion had for magick, but it's only for staff.

Above example, perfectly doable on KB+M, I'm not sure how they'd do it on a controller.

I'm just going to ask a basic question, and this is serious because I don't know. Maybe there is.

Are there ANY games that you can name that let you do this?

The primary reason I ask this is because almost everything wrong with gaming is blamed on consoles, even if there's a more realistic expectation. I get the keybinding thing, by the way, but are we sure it's not just because the Gandalf thing isn't quite a staple of fantasy? There's a lot of things that happen in RPGs that make it difficult to represent things like the ubermensch of Tolkien's dry little power fantasy[footnote]and my opinion on Tolkien's work as a boring pile of steaming crap is one of the main reasons I wanted to point out that was asking a serious question, because the two aren't related[/footnote].
I get that it's doable, but the question is: is it done, or is it done often?

Often, there is a slightly more Occam's Razor reason behind these decisions. They're easier or easier to manage.

 

[Something Amyss]

People say that without a shred of irony?

Not all the time, mind, but yes. Keep in mind, of course, it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between an idiot and someone saying something ironically. It's the hipster version of Poe's Law.

 

[Amir Kondori]

Ignore those assholes. I game only on PC, use KB+mouse for most games, but I also have a gamepad for games that play best that way, of which there are several.

Unless you are playing first person shooters on gamepad. Then you just need to man up.

 

[BloodRed Pixel]

Nothing gets between me and my PC gaming fun!

If a game plays better with a KB/M I use it and if a game plays better with a controller I use that. On some games I even switch in-game to the momentarily better option.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

I had a thread about this.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.821402-PC-Game-Development-Gamepad-Issue

The general consensus was that you should be allowed to design a game around one or the other, but you should ALWAYS be include support for either.

Changing controls should always be an option.

But yeah, anyone criticizing another person's controller preferences is stupid and anal. I'd rather be a "console peasant" than a ignorant buffoon.

People say that without a shred of irony?

Not all the time, mind, but yes. Keep in mind, of course, it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between an idiot and someone saying something ironically. It's the hipster version of Poe's Law.

Us gamers huh?

 

[V8 Ninja]

Really? People are complaining over your preferences when it comes to consuming entertainment? That's just ridiculous.

 

[Godhead]

Unless it's a racing game or an arcadey/sidescroller games, I normally use the keyboard and mouse. It doesn't matter what you use really, the two can be better at separate things.

 

[Lunar Templar]

That's the 'PC gaming master race' for you. They think everything PC related is better, even when it isn't. KB+M? great for a lot of games, but not all of them, and most the games I been playing lately a KB+M set up is detrimental to game play.

My suggestion? Next time one of those know nothing know it alls gets pissy about you using a controller, tell them to go fuck them selves, preferably, with a condescending pat on the head if possible

 

[gnihton]

There are a few reasons I can think of for this:

- First off, a lot of people will say it ironically.

- If you play on a PC, it's implicit that you're a 'serious' gamer at least to some degree, so you're expected to use the most optimal (and since it's standard, the expectations to do so are higher) input, which are obviously KB+M.

- Following on from the above point, if you don't use a KB+M then it's pretty heavily implied that you're simply not playing seriously or just aren't actually good enough at the games to use them. In something competitive, I would be pretty annoyed if somebody on my team was using something other than KB+M, other than if I/we weren't taking the game seriously and/or it's just done for fun like here [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfiOmo2jr6M].

- Continuing on this thought thread, KB+M raises the skill ceiling significantly because it's more precise. This doesn't really matter too much to casual gamers though of course.

Also, this:

Now, why is it always PC games that get treated with the "It's how you're supposed to play" treatment, but when it's a game made for console first, and ported to PC second, there's no fuss about people using mouse and keyboard? GTA 4 was made for controller, but people used KB+M with no complaints. There are even game ON CONSOLE that support mouse and keyboard. No one thinks twice.

If something is designed to be stupid, then people don't object to people handling it in ways it wasn't specifically made for, like how hackers have the moral high ground on ridiculous DRM like in Sim City.

It's exactly the same as how Yahtzee keeps pointing out that the Kinect is terrible because it hardly works and pushing buttons is far quicker, more reliable, and easier (so optimal). KB+M is just massively superior to console controllers in almost all cases, so in the eyes of most pc gamers, almost EVERYTHING is 'made for' KB+M, which is a sentiment I agree with completely, considering it raises the skill ceiling so much and allows for much more competitive gameplay.

I mean, have you ever watched 'competitive' console gameplay? It's bloody laughable if you compare it to Quake or promod tourneys, and consider non FPS games like LoL and Starcraft that you just cannot play on a controller at all.

 

[Deshin]

I prefer gamepads because I have bad wrist joints so lying back (on a sofa mostly) with a controller saves me the inevitable pain of carpal tunnel from using a mouse. The only game I *didn't* get pain with was FFXI which was keyboard-only (well you COULD use a mouse but... just no...) so I'm somewhat looking forward to FFXIV-ARR having a controller option from the get-go.

 

[Kyrdra]

Ever since I've been in the PC gaming scene, there have been numerous times that I have been pretty much ridiculed for using a gamepad with pretty much any PC game compatible with one. I get rude remarks and treated as a moron when I ask if a game supports a gamepad, and I'm called "a dirty console peasant" by quite a few people.

People say that without a shred of irony?

Personally, my favorite FPS control scheme is half a controller(because I can't find the PC equivalent of the wii nunchuck) and a mouse. Sadly, Valve seems to be among the only companies that allow for a controller and mouse to be used simultaneously.


Hotkeys aren't really an issue as my mouse has a few buttons to spare(though I've run into many games that don't recognize the buttons unless I configure it to be something common like middle mouse click) and the available buttons on the controller like L1, L2, L3 and the d-pad if necessary.

maybe the logitech g 13 would be something for you?

but I have no idea how that thing works or if it is compatible wiht most games

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I don't care what people use to play their games. I just think a game should be optimized to play on anything it is released for. Therefore if a game is released on PC, it should be optimized to play on keyboard and mouse for those who prefer it. Do I care if people use a gamepad? Nope! I use a controller for games sometimes.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Ever since I've been in the PC gaming scene, there have been numerous times that I have been pretty much ridiculed for using a gamepad with pretty much any PC game compatible with one. I get rude remarks and treated as a moron when I ask if a game supports a gamepad, and I'm called "a dirty console peasant" by quite a few people.

People say that without a shred of irony?

Personally, my favorite FPS control scheme is half a controller(because I can't find the PC equivalent of the wii nunchuck) and a mouse. Sadly, Valve seems to be among the only companies that allow for a controller and mouse to be used simultaneously.


Hotkeys aren't really an issue as my mouse has a few buttons to spare(though I've run into many games that don't recognize the buttons unless I configure it to be something common like middle mouse click) and the available buttons on the controller like L1, L2, L3 and the d-pad if necessary.

maybe the logitech g 13 would be something for you?

but I have no idea how that thing works or if it is compatible wiht most games

I was thinking of something more simple like this.

Sadly, it's not for PC.

 

[The Lugz]

Ever since I've been in the PC gaming scene, there have been numerous times that I have been pretty much ridiculed for using a gamepad with pretty much any PC game compatible with one. I get rude remarks and treated as a moron when I ask if a game supports a gamepad, and I'm called "a dirty console peasant" by quite a few people. I even ask "Why does it matter to you what a person wants to use to play a game they pay for?" and the only answer is "Because that's how it's supposed to be played". But why is it that only the PC gaming community does this? Granted, it's just a portion of it, but it's quite a few, and I don't understand it.

For example, I never played the first "The Witcher", and saw it was on Steam. Before buying it, I recalled that the second game had full 360 controller support, and wondered if the first was the same (I had no idea that the combat and gameplay was VERY reliant on the point and click method of a mouse at the time, figuring it would have been similar to The Witcher 2 instead). The replies were as you could assume. A few "No it doesn't" replies, and also quite a few "No you fucking moron, you can't play it with a controller. Go back to your Xbox 360 you console peasant", or some variation of that. It was a simple question, and not even on a forum. This was asking through voice chat while playing an online game.

Now, why is it always PC games that get treated with the "It's how you're supposed to play" treatment, but when it's a game made for console first, and ported to PC second, there's no fuss about people using mouse and keyboard? GTA 4 was made for controller, but people used KB+M with no complaints. There are even game ON CONSOLE that support mouse and keyboard. No one thinks twice.

Why is it such an issue for some people that someone uses one or the other? I know KB+M (Well, it's just the mouse. For movement, controller has the advantage) has better precision, FPS games in particular, but for a single player, and even PC multiplayer games that let you use one, it shouldn't matter that someone does.

looooooooong story short, it really just depends if a game works best for you with x control method.. some people play shooters with controllers ( and frankly i don't understand how! ) but i definitely use a controller for button-spam fighting games and racing games because sometimes you need movement granularity to fully experience the game and keyboards suck for that ( although i have an analogue thumb-stick now.. so that argument is rapidly evaporating too. )
it's a well known fact that relative positioning is simply faster by mouse than any other input method as you don't have to 'swing' the mouse back 50* before it starts moving again, so you have a minor advantage in speed and reaction time

but does all this MATTER ? well if you're a competitive gamer, yes. if you're just out to have fun and experience the game how you like it then NO.

I routinely play mech online with a flight-stick to experience it as a simulation, but when i want to just kill peeps i enjoy my twin eye laser mouse's unbeatable reaction times and tracking accuracy.

so, haters gunna hate.. just do what makes you happy.

#edit#

but I have no idea how that thing works or if it is compatible wiht most games

it's compatible with everything. all the keys, the stick and several different modes can be assigned to any function, macros or whatever your heart desires, and the small 'nipple' controller can be set to emulate a joystick, though mostly i use it for wsad/arrow and jump ( press down )

imo, it's the single most powerful peripheral addition to a stock k/m pc you can buy.
( get a mmo mouse to go with it, for ALL the buttons at once! )

 

[The Lugz]

It really depends on what kind of game you play.
WASD is terrible for precise movement, and a Stick is terrible for precise aiming.
I wish I could use the left half of a gamepad in tandem with a mouse, Like the Wii Nunchuck.
That'd be the best of both worlds.

Do you know how trivially easy that would be? My laptop, at this very moment, has a USB port on the left side, right next to my shift key. If someone were to make a device that is just a USB plug-in thumb stick that feeds the rig precise WASD data and has a screw-down bottom so it doesn't dangle awkwardly and break from the weight of my hand, I would buy it instantly.
SOMEONE KICKSTARTER IT

that's a terrible idea, usb ports are extremely flimsy things.

i'd just stick with the g13, yeah it's more expensive than some jury rigged usb key but it works 1000x better too.

 

[neppakyo]

A controller is best for sport/racing games, a joystick with hat/throttle, best for games like mechwarrior, imho. I use KB+M for almost everything, I play Batman Arkham City better with a KB+M than a controller.

Sadly the last few years console ports included horrible controller support.