Keyboard and mouse are losing the FPS market

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Ed130 The Vanguard

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Sep 10, 2008
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What we see here is a simple case of 'Correlation = Causation' in action.

Multiplatform FPS's sell better on consoles because PC gamers have better taste Consoles have a wider install base (not counting all those millions of PC's that are owned by companies and old people).

Add in the combining of two separate platforms sales (360 and PS3), the discounting of online distribution, and some really odd comparisons (a console only game that was released 3 months ago vs a game released five fucking years ago. [small]The console FPS barely won that.[/small])

Yeah Kyle Orland's article is full of BS.
 

Callate

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Dec 5, 2008
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Vault101 said:
Callate said:
'Course, if Microsoft continues to f@$% things up with their insistence that everyone play their way on the PC or they'll take their ball and go home, the PC gaming market might take a fatal beating from the tablet market. Time will tell; we live in "interesting times".
I cant see it...they are completly different markets
Well... Just reducing it to "Windows PCs fall under the onslaught of the tablet market" is an oversimplification.

I could see that market splintering to the point where PC gaming would become completely niche, and no longer attractive to any but smaller, independent developers. AAA gaming has consoles, people who just want a quick game fix and don't care about grand graphics or complex control schemes have their Android and iOS devices, people who want to work on creative projects and have "game-quality PC"-scale money to burn have the Macintosh line. If you just want to do e-mail or browse the web, any of the above will do, and the means to work with same are getting better with each generation. Or one could pick up an ultralight "netbook", which also has the capability to do some of the above- but in most cases, not hardcore gaming.

PC sales have been in decline for some time, and the fact that Intel got out of motherboard manufacturing and NVidia is looking hungrily to get into the Android-powered console market suggests that they're wondering about the future of the PC in its current form as well.

Now, I love my PC; I'm primarily a PC gamer, and I tend to feel that for many games, the mouse and keyboard is simply the superior way to play. I'm also cognizant that getting in early on the i7 line has allowed my PC to play games through about one-and-a-half generations of game consoles with superior graphics and minimal upkeep. I hope that PC gaming will remain a strong and vibrant place for many years to come, and my direr fears will never come to fruition.

But Microsoft has really never been good at this whole "PC Gaming" thing, ranging anywhere from "mediocre, half-hearted support" to "sullenly antagonistic through a combination of ignorance, misguided priorities and apathy." One of the biggest things Windows systems have had going for them in the past is a combination of openness and market share. Windows 8 is a step away from both of those things, just when PC gaming least needs to be providing road blocks to those who want to play. If it gets harder and less financially attractive to develop for the PC, the criticisms of those who primarily play on consoles are going to become much more convincing. If you can do everything a PC does on other systems that cost less- why wouldn't you?
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Callate said:
but PC gaming kind of IS niche already....

also are macs actually better for creative projects? I know they have benchmark software like final cut pro but...seriously

I dont know much about windows 8 but I guess it is a problem if they become as closed off as apple
 

ron1n

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EeviStev said:
ron1n said:
Please...just no more stupid arguing over what's better. It isn't a subjective thing, Mouse and Keyboard are far superior for FPS. People might PREFER to use a gamepad, and that's fine. But don't be under any illusions over which is better.
But it is subjective. The game pad is better for me because I never play online multiplayer, and because I grew up using a game pad so I play better using one. Playing an FPS with M+KB makes me feel like I'm playing a fast-paced point-and-click adventure game with one puzzle: shoot the moving things until they stop moving. But don't let my opinion get in the way of The Truth (read: your opinion).
Yes, better for YOU. That doesn't make the gamepad more efficient as a device in general. It's just what you've learnt.

Ok look at it this way.

The worlds best knife fighter might beat the world's worst gun fighter, but if the guy holding the gun has even the most basic clue, he's going to come out on top 80% of the time because his device is simply more efficient for the task.

Using a gamepad in an fps that had both control options is a handicap, no matter the skill levels. Does this mean you will always lose? Of course not. It just makes it that much harder to win.

EDIT: and just realised you're referring to Single player.

Same argument stands though. Only instead of beating an online opponent, it's AI opponents.
 

DoomyMcDoom

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BansheeBomb said:
Computer mice are more precisious when it comes to FPS combat but the reason i prefer the controller is the keyboard.

My god do i hate keyboards! They are clearly not designed for gaming and it shows, there are too many gosh darn buttons!
It's not that hard to adapt if you treat separate parts of the keyboard as separate control surfaces, like in a FPS, WASD move you, E is the use key, R right next to it is reload, Q can be a menu or grenades or melee, depending on preference, CTRL hit with the pinky is crouching, SHIFT above CTRL is for sprinting, and usually if it's multiplayer competitive shooter, Holding TAB opens the score view window... 1, 2, and 3 etc. Right above your WASD control switch weapons, or you can just use the mouse wheel if you want, and SPACE BAR is for jumping(if the game has it as most do) hit it with thumb.

And all of these controls can be customized to your preference, now think, if you have all 5 of your fingers able to hit buttons, isn't that a more open ended and user intuitive control mode then thumbs and pointer fingers only? Sure if you're super used to controllers, this might be difficult to adjust to having the ability to truly free your fingers up for use as quick response multitasking tools, rather than chained slaves with a few buttons, that are hard to press several at once due to positioning, you will soon find with a degree of practice, not much at all if you just look at it differently(I remember how confusing a keyboard as a controller was to me at first, then my cousin showed me about hand positioning, and key remapping options, and within hours it became my favourite controller.) it's all perspective, but on a purely objective basis a keyboard is in fact, more versatile customize-able, and generally function-able, than a gamepad.

I mean sure to each their own, but when you have the option to have so many more buttons that you can hit so much faster, and so many more options for so many more mapping and comfort settings, and the ability to hit up to 5 buttons with one hand simultainiously whilst also controlling view angles and pinpoint targeting/weapon switching/zoom control(and more if you have more buttons on your mouse) at the same time, instead of either moving or switching weapons, as an example. With a keyboard/mouse, you can be jumping zooming moving aiming and toggling fire mode at the same time, allowing for much much faster response times if you aren't completely horrified with the idea of using it as a control scheme.

Way I see it you get more flexibility out of keyboard/mouse, so when you have both options available, given the ability, if you were to be able to practice with either one, keyboard/mouse, with same level of skill, can do more things faster, and more precisely, therefor at least as far as I can see, given all of the strictly objective factors involved, more buttons closer together use-able by more fingers at once, allowing for higher input speed, and easier input of multiple rapid fire commands(movement controls, shooting jumping throwing grenades, melee, scoping changing zoom, changing fire rate, all that sort of thing)... Why would anyone see gamepads, the more limiting controller in the equation, as superior except as practiced preference due to lack of exposure and adaptation to a more complex, more customize-able, and more versatile control device?
 

xPixelatedx

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Vault101 said:
I dont know about anyone else but I find it...ironic that FPS has become the staple genre of the current gen...on consoles with gamepads...I mean thats just friggen hilarious in a way
As someone with a keyboard and mouse connected to their Xbox, I do find it funny. Funny I have an advantage.

I just hate 360 controllers all around. That same adapter that lets me use a keyboard and mouse also lets me use a Playstation 2 controller on my Xbox. I find fighting games, platformers and just generally everything far better to play.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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xPixelatedx said:
Vault101 said:
I dont know about anyone else but I find it...ironic that FPS has become the staple genre of the current gen...on consoles with gamepads...I mean thats just friggen hilarious in a way
As someone with a keyboard and mouse connected to their Xbox, I do find it funny. Funny I have an advantage.
really? I think I once read about a peripheral that made it possible....though not many people seem aware

if I had the money/inclination it would be pretty awsome to go into COD and dominate
 

xPixelatedx

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Vault101 said:
really? I think I once read about a peripheral that made it possible....though not many people seem aware

if I had the money/inclination it would be pretty awsome to go into COD and dominate
I don't play much CoD so I wouldn't know specifically for that game, but the difference it made in Battlefield and Halo is astounding. I got an extermination on Halo 4 recently entierly via beam-rifle snapshots(noscopes). When the 360 first came out, Microsoft's official stance on keyboard and mice was that they believed their controller was the superior experience, which is why they would never make an official adapter or 360 keyboard/mouse combo. So according to them I'm at the disadvantage. ...I just can't type that without laughing.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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xPixelatedx said:
When the 360 first came out, Microsoft's official stance on keyboard and mice was that they believed their controller was the superior experience.
....DEEEEEERRRRP

though by that they might have actually ment "thease games were originaly designed for controller" unless they actually ment their controller was better than a M/K

in that case DEEEEEEERRRRRP
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Between There and There.
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The Wide, Brown One.
Vault101 said:
also are macs actually better for creative projects? I know they have benchmark software like final cut pro but...seriously
Benchmark? Final Cut Pro isn't a benchmarking prog, it's the industry standard program for video editting.

That said, no, macs are not better for creative projects. They might have been 20 years ago but for the past 15 at least that idea has been nothing but wishful dickpulling by mac fanboys and perpetuated by morons stuck in their prejudices by clinging to the machines they learned on.
 

infohippie

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Huh, I did not know something like the Xim3 existed. I might think about getting one, then I will actually be able to game on the 360 I was given after all. As it is now, it is just gathering dust in a cupboard because I can't stand using controllers.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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RhombusHatesYou said:
Benchmark? Final Cut Pro isn't a benchmarking prog, it's the industry standard program for video editting.

That said, no, macs are not better for creative projects. They might have been 20 years ago but for the past 15 at least that idea has been nothing but wishful dickpulling by mac fanboys and perpetuated by morons stuck in their prejudices by clinging to the machines they learned on.
can you get final cut pro on a PC?
 

VanQ

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Treblaine said:
tippy2k2 said:
If that were the case, why would you care? If you truly believe that the mouse/keyboard combo gives you such an edge over me, why would it matter to you if I wanted to use my controller in a battle to the virtual death with you?
Well for one PC games tend to be much more team oriented, you not being good wouldn't be good for the team you are on. Unless you go something like a Heavy, but even they benefit hugely from a gamepad.

Still, you are welcome to the party, many PC games have gamepad support. If only consoles could return the gesture and support mouse + keyboard anywhere near as much as PC games support gamepad.

You'll probably do fairly well for a beginner with a gamepad on a game like Team Fortress 2, if you stay to suitable classes like medic or Heavy. But you're going to hit a skill wall, there is a reason why big competitive LAN events gamepads are almost nowhere to be seen. Even for driving games, keyboard warriors are common. I can't explain how so many can never beat their best performance on keyboard with a gamepad.

Personally I was raised playing racing games with a gamepad... but playing Dirt 3 on PC I am fairly good with a gamepad's thumbstick, I surge ahead in performance and CONSISTENT performance using JUST a keyboard and JUST one hand. I don't know why or how.

I am speaking as someone with extensive experience on both consoles and PC.

What is your experience with PC gaming? If any. Otherwise your comparative assessment might be quite lacking.
I'll be honest, I'd love to see someone rock up to a professional TF2 tournament with a gamepad or controller and go "It's okay guys, I'm playing Heavy." only to be laughed out of the building when a Scout shits all over him without ever needing to hit the jump key.

It's hard enough for a Heavy to kill a decent Scout if they manage to close the gap, I can't imagine how difficult it would be with a game pad. The same goes for Market Gardening people or attempting to get a successful Sandman/Cleaver combo. All difficult moves even on a K&M that can be extremely useful if pulled off, I can not imagine ever being capable of such feats on a controller.
 

Bat Vader

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Mar 11, 2009
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I think people should just use whatever they are most comfortable with. Some people prefer gamepads and some people prefer a Mouse and Keyboard. I personally prefer a mouse and keyboard. I just find it easier to use. Plus, I have arthritis in a couple of my fingers and gripping a controller can be painful sometimes.
 

EeviStev

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ron1n said:
EeviStev said:
ron1n said:
Please...just no more stupid arguing over what's better. It isn't a subjective thing, Mouse and Keyboard are far superior for FPS. People might PREFER to use a gamepad, and that's fine. But don't be under any illusions over which is better.
But it is subjective. The game pad is better for me because I never play online multiplayer, and because I grew up using a game pad so I play better using one. Playing an FPS with M+KB makes me feel like I'm playing a fast-paced point-and-click adventure game with one puzzle: shoot the moving things until they stop moving. But don't let my opinion get in the way of The Truth (read: your opinion).
Yes, better for YOU. That doesn't make the gamepad more efficient as a device in general. It's just what you've learnt.

Ok look at it this way.

The worlds best knife fighter might beat the world's worst gun fighter, but if the guy holding the gun has even the most basic clue, he's going to come out on top 80% of the time because his device is simply more efficient for the task.

Using a gamepad in an fps that had both control options is a handicap, no matter the skill levels. Does this mean you will always lose? Of course not. It just makes it that much harder to win.
I'm not saying the gamepad is better in general. I'm saying neither are better, objectively. For both gamepad vs M+KB and your analogy, it depends on who you're asking. A ninja with a blade vs. my 92-year-old grandmother with a firearm and my money's on the ninja. Giving me a M+KB would make it much harder for me to win regardless. THAT would be my handicap. If you analyse the devices on their own, they're both going to be equally inanimate.

There's just no effective way to measure which is objectively better. There are way too many variables. (In relation to controllers) Even if you could get two people with the exact same skill level, one may be better at the particular map, better with their weapon of choice, etc. (Two is way too many, right? :p). You may as well say Red is better than Blue because statistically Red team wins more often. They do, btw: http://www.1up.com/news/study-red-team-beats-blue

I agree that which is better is a stupid arguement, just for a different reason.
 

Olas

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Dec 24, 2011
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It's motion controls or mouse, aiming a gun with a joystick just doesn't work for me. I don't think I'm alone so keyboard and mouse are here to stay.
 

Trippy Turtle

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May 10, 2010
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Keyboard and mouse will never be as good as a solid controller. It takes a little getting used to higher sensitivity on them but after that its second nature to use them.
I want to feel like I am pulling off awesome shots rather than playing a point and click adventure game.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Vault101 said:
personally it kind of irks me a bit because I find gamepads can make games some games damn near unplayable (ok thats hyperbole but still) I mean honestly if you need artifical asstance with aiming your systm is kind of broken.....
I'm a console gamer and I cannot fucking stand aim-assist in any shooter, it only messes up my aim. There's no place for aim-assist on the multiplayer for any shooter, regardless of platform. I played a console shooter called Metal Gear Online that required headshots to kill as body shots very little damage, and the game had no aim-assist.

Here's a match of 2 top clans playing each other, they can headshot you across the map in a second, no assistance required.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Trippy Turtle said:
Keyboard and mouse will never be as good as a solid controller. It takes a little getting used to higher sensitivity on them but after that its second nature to use them.
I want to feel like I am pulling off awesome shots rather than playing a point and click adventure game.
but it doesnt feel like that at all 0_0