So the last man in in Haditha Massacre has just pleaded guilty. If you're not familiar with it, it's a massacre that took place in 2005 when US Marines, after the death on one of their own, went on a revenge killing, and murdered 25 Iraqi's, including 10 women and a child.
Considering that 8 other marines have been cleared of these charges, and this latest one is only getting 3 months, essentially nothing, this is just sickening. The evidence is pretty clear, the people killed weren't terrorists but innocent civilians and no weapons were found on them, and "Six people were killed in one house, most shot in the head, including women and children huddled in a bedroom."
This is screwed up. An American can kill another American citizen and he can get life in prison.
But when an American kills 24 Iraqi's all he get's is "three months of confinement, forfeiture of two-thirds of his pay for three months and a reduction in rank when he is sentenced, a base spokesman said."?!!! Not even counting the 8 other soldiers that were Acquitted.
I know I'm coming off as a rabid anti-American, but seriously, Fuck You America Great Job guys.
Not everyone who fires on American troops over there is an insurgent, just saying. Also, I am not seeing any clear evidence to say for sore that this was pure "revenge killing." Sufficient evidence could not be gathered, nor could it be gathered because this is in Iraq. You don't have the luxury of dusting for prints and gather clues. It's a warzone.
I say, civilians need to keep quiet on these things. It was tried in a military court where this type of case belongs. I think that they make better judges on the matter than some anonymous, raging dissenter on an online forum on a video game website.
Further proof that war is f***ed up and everyone just needs to stop it.
I can't make a judgment because I dunno what I would do if I saw my friend get blown up. I think a large amount of the people posting here would lose it, too.
Ugh. The whole situation just makes me sick.
There must have been a decent argument, something to cast doubt on the events.
They must have decided the marines made a terrible mistake. Something to be punished for yes, but not the same as intentional murder.
Okay...reading up, well it says that a bomb had just gone off and somebody was shooting at them and they didnt know where from. Im not going to judge these guys. They could have paniced from the and we will never know all the facts. Its not easy to make the right choice every time in a combat situation.
Dunno, wasnt there. Maybe they were sweeping rooms so fast they didnt take the time to check their targets? Not that I know what its like to be a soldier.
But I do find it hard to believe only one guy would get three months if there was some evidence these guys actually intentionally commited murder.
They could have been pumped up on adrenaline and disorientated by the explosion that just went off.
A marine is trained not to run by instinct. To kill one innocent is a gravous error. If he was fired apon and there was clear ID of subject he could fire but 23 counts is purly calculated murder. The room only SWEEPED WHEN they have positive ID on targets. If you wonder why the terrorist hate us its because of this. This is all the justification they need for a decade.
Marines are not train to run from a fight even greatly out number. In fact they learn to close in and kill their enemies.
There was this ambushed a few years back where a Marine Platoon got ambushed by over 200 insurgents. Outnumber and out gunned by over 6 to 1 inside a kill zone. What did the Marine do? Close in and kill over 150 of them and none of the Marine was killed.
The Taliban learn really quick not to get close to Marines in a firefight. Their tactics is to fight Marines 200 or more yards away from them. This allows the Taliban to run away before the Marine close in and slaughter them.
Exactly, it doesn't add up if they knew their enemy which for an unprecedented amount of fight I am sure they do. It wasn't 24 people in a room. It was spread out. There was some intent.
So the last man in in Haditha Massacre has just pleaded guilty. If you're not familiar with it, it's a massacre that took place in 2005 when US Marines, after the death on one of their own, went on a revenge killing, and murdered 25 Iraqi's, including 10 women and a child.
Considering that 8 other marines have been cleared of these charges, and this latest one is only getting 3 months, essentially nothing, this is just sickening. The evidence is pretty clear, the people killed weren't terrorists but innocent civilians and no weapons were found on them, and "Six people were killed in one house, most shot in the head, including women and children huddled in a bedroom."
This is screwed up. An American can kill another American citizen and he can get life in prison.
But when an American kills 24 Iraqi's all he get's is "three months of confinement, forfeiture of two-thirds of his pay for three months and a reduction in rank when he is sentenced, a base spokesman said."?!!! Not even counting the 8 other soldiers that were Acquitted.
I know I'm coming off as a rabid anti-American, but seriously, Fuck You America Great Job guys.
Not everyone who fires on American troops over there is an insurgent, just saying. Also, I am not seeing any clear evidence to say for sore that this was pure "revenge killing." Sufficient evidence could not be gathered, nor could it be gathered because this is in Iraq. You don't have the luxury of dusting for prints and gather clues. It's a warzone.
I say, civilians need to keep quiet on these things. It was tried in a military court where this type of case belongs. I think that they make better judges on the matter than some anonymous, raging dissenter on an online forum on a video game website.
The firefight has been studied for sometime now. The plead deal was probably the best way to get this over with. He would have most likely gotten off if he spend more years battling in court. I think over six years is more the enough for him.
If look at my links above this post you fight some good information on what happened.
I'm an american and I think this is fucking embarassing. His unit should be serving life for war crimes. It sucks what happend to them, but you don't go ordering your unit to murder 24 civilians. That's just fucked up.
Ok, from what I read, the squad was attacked by a road side IED attack resulting in the death of one of the soilders. Then their Sargent, Frank Wuterich, ordered them to "Shoot first and ask questions latter" which included opening fire on a civilian operated vehicle as it was moving away from the squad and assaulting several civilian homes with small arms and grenades resulting in the deaths of 24 unarmed civilians that included women and children. Not something we should be making excuses for.
I don't normally support America - having lucked out by living on the other side of the world, we tend to sit back and laugh. But Australia has a penchant for glorifying its war heroes and in some cases, rightly so.
In this case with the American military, I don't think it's at all fair to completely dismiss the disorientation those soldiers suffered. It's common knowledge that the insurgent fighters aren't all male - women and children have been recruited and/or forced to carry suicide bombs. Put in that situation, I would treat EVERYONE with suspicion.
These people who are sent to defend their countries and, more importantly, their families forge strong ties with each other. If you spent years fighting alongside your best mate, not knowing if you were going to come home alive, then have the only solid part of your life ripped away, I'm pretty sure you'd lose a bit of sanity too.
I'm not condoning the mass slaughter of innocent civilians. It's not right and heck, one of my mates is Iraqi and he's been here three years (top bloke). But I also feel for the soldiers.
Also, this was in 2005. It was the moment where the US Army realized that they needed to reevaluate their rules of engagement, since the the previous rules didn't do a good job of covering the environment in Iraq (i.e. every door you open and every person you meet could lead to your death). Not justifying this atrocity or the war in Iraq in any way, but using this event to demonize American soldiers today is a bit of a stretch, since they are trained completely differently now.
Even then...this is depressing. I'm sick of war. Everyone should be sick of war.
There must have been a decent argument, something to cast doubt on the events.
They must have decided the marines made a terrible mistake. Something to be punished for yes, but not the same as intentional murder.
Okay...reading up, well it says that a bomb had just gone off and somebody was shooting at them and they didnt know where from. Im not going to judge these guys. They could have paniced from the and we will never know all the facts. Its not easy to make the right choice every time in a combat situation.
Dunno, wasnt there. Maybe they were sweeping rooms so fast they didnt take the time to check their targets? Not that I know what its like to be a soldier.
But I do find it hard to believe only one guy would get three months if there was some evidence these guys actually intentionally commited murder.
They could have been pumped up on adrenaline and disorientated by the explosion that just went off.
A marine is trained not to run by instinct. To kill one innocent is a gravous error. If he was fired apon and there was clear ID of subject he could fire but 23 counts is purly calculated murder. The room only SWEEPED WHEN they have positive ID on targets. If you wonder why the terrorist hate us its because of this. This is all the justification they need for a decade.
Marines are not train to run from a fight even greatly out number. In fact they learn to close in and kill their enemies.
There was this ambushed a few years back where a Marine Platoon got ambushed by over 200 insurgents. Outnumber and out gunned by over 6 to 1 inside a kill zone. What did the Marine do? Close in and kill over 150 of them and none of the Marine was killed.
The Taliban learn really quick not to get close to Marines in a firefight. Their tactics is to fight Marines 200 or more yards away from them. This allows the Taliban to run away before the Marine close in and slaughter them.
Exactly, it doesn't add up if they knew their enemy which for an unprecedented amount of fight I am sure they do. It wasn't 24 people in a room. It was spread out. There was some intent.
No the insurgent was firing inside the civilian home and was using them as human shields. The Marine didn't know that. All they know is they being hit. So they close in and kill the enemies.
IIRC this event happen just after the second battle of Fallujah. In Fallujah the Marin was ordered to go house to house and kill or capture any insurgent in there. I believe this group was part of the battle there and it carry it into this firefight. However it been a long time I did the research on this subject.
Go check the two links above this post. It gives good information of the firefight.
Do remember we are talking about the justice system in a country where, under potential SOPA law, illegally distributing Michael Jackson music lands you 5 years and actually murdering Michael Jackson only lands you 4.
I'm an american and I think this is fucking embarassing. His unit should be serving life for war crimes. It sucks what happend to them, but you don't go ordering your unit to murder 24 civilians. That's just fucked up.
Ok, from what I read, the squad was attacked by a road side IED attack resulting in the death of one of the soilders. Then their Sargent, Frank Wuterich, ordered them to "Shoot first and ask questions latter" which included opening fire on a civilian operated vehicle as it was moving away from the squad and assaulting several civilian homes with small arms and grenades resulting in the deaths of 24 unarmed civilians that included women and children. Not something we should be making excuses for.
IIRC there was a lieutenant at the scene and he told the sgt. to clear the home of insurgents which was firing on them. The Sgt. told his troops to clear them out. In the fog of war it was very unfortunate that the Marine didn't know there were civilian. There was no intent to kill the civilians by the Marines.
I'm an american and I think this is fucking embarassing. His unit should be serving life for war crimes. It sucks what happend to them, but you don't go ordering your unit to murder 24 civilians. That's just fucked up.
Ok, from what I read, the squad was attacked by a road side IED attack resulting in the death of one of the soilders. Then their Sargent, Frank Wuterich, ordered them to "Shoot first and ask questions latter" which included opening fire on a civilian operated vehicle as it was moving away from the squad and assaulting several civilian homes with small arms and grenades resulting in the deaths of 24 unarmed civilians that included women and children. Not something we should be making excuses for.
IIRC there was a lieutenant at the scene and he told the sgt. to clear the home of insurgents which was firing on them. The Sgt. told his troops to clear them out. In the fog of war it was very unfortunate that the Marine didn't know there were civilian. There was no intent to kill the civilians by the Marines.
I'm sure the Catholic Church could learn a thing or two about harboring criminals from the Marines.
Hey, we have our problems, we're not perfect. This guy's personal life is completely ruined, he probably won't be able to find a job once discharged and he'll be shunned where ever he goes for the rest of his life.
There seems to be a lot of hate in this thread from both sides.
The logical choice here, is to start voicing a complete and utter disgust with Americas Foreign policy. Particularly start voting out the people that have voted for War.
I'm an american and I think this is fucking embarassing. His unit should be serving life for war crimes. It sucks what happend to them, but you don't go ordering your unit to murder 24 civilians. That's just fucked up.
Ok, from what I read, the squad was attacked by a road side IED attack resulting in the death of one of the soilders. Then their Sargent, Frank Wuterich, ordered them to "Shoot first and ask questions latter" which included opening fire on a civilian operated vehicle as it was moving away from the squad and assaulting several civilian homes with small arms and grenades resulting in the deaths of 24 unarmed civilians that included women and children. Not something we should be making excuses for.
IIRC there was a lieutenant at the scene and he told the sgt. to clear the home of insurgents which was firing on them. The Sgt. told his troops to clear them out. In the fog of war it was very unfortunate that the Marine didn't know there were civilian. There was no intent to kill the civilians by the Marines.
There are difference between Police and Military. Both follows different rules/laws and training. You can't mix the two up.
What the Marine did was the correct response to threats. They ID the threats, close in, and kill them. That's standard. That's how they are trained. That what happens countless of time in firefights.
The problem was in this case, the Marines didn't know the insurgents was using civilians as human shields. If they knew they would do things differently.
Like I said all the Marines except IIRC the lieutenant and now the sgt got convicted. The rest of the Marines was found not guilty. In fact I figure the case was long closed. Didn't think it would drag this long.
There seems to be a lot of hate in this thread from both sides.
The logical choice here, is to start voicing a complete and utter disgust with Americas Foreign policy. Particularly start voting out the people that have voted for War.
There seems to be a lot of hate in this thread from both sides.
The logical choice here, is to start voicing a complete and utter disgust with Americas Foreign policy. Particularly start voting out the people that have voted for War.
I sincerely doubt any clue about what really happened will ever shed the light of day, not because of a coverup, because it would a logistical difficulty to track down the movements and witnesses of the event in warzone.
In the end the people trying to investigating would not get anywhere and might instigate a greater reprisal from the people living there.
War atrocities will always exists while an occupying force stands on another country, if you dont believe me, then you should investigate what goes on other US bases around the world.
I'm an american and I think this is fucking embarassing. His unit should be serving life for war crimes. It sucks what happend to them, but you don't go ordering your unit to murder 24 civilians. That's just fucked up.
Ok, from what I read, the squad was attacked by a road side IED attack resulting in the death of one of the soilders. Then their Sargent, Frank Wuterich, ordered them to "Shoot first and ask questions latter" which included opening fire on a civilian operated vehicle as it was moving away from the squad and assaulting several civilian homes with small arms and grenades resulting in the deaths of 24 unarmed civilians that included women and children. Not something we should be making excuses for.
IIRC there was a lieutenant at the scene and he told the sgt. to clear the home of insurgents which was firing on them. The Sgt. told his troops to clear them out. In the fog of war it was very unfortunate that the Marine didn't know there were civilian. There was no intent to kill the civilians by the Marines.
There are difference between Police and Military. Both follows different rules/laws and training. You can't mix the two up.
What the Marine did was the correct response to threats. They ID the threats, close in, and kill them. That's standard. That's how they are trained. That what happens countless of time in firefights.
The problem was in this case, the Marines didn't know the insurgents was using civilians as human shields. If they knew they would do things differently.
Like I said all the Marines except IIRC the lieutenant and now the sgt got convicted. The rest of the Marines was found not guilty. In fact I figure the case was long closed. Didn't think it would drag this long.
What human Shields? There where no human shields and there wasn't a firefight. They said they where received small arms fire and they were trying to either find the shooter or the bomber for the ied. They where not being engaged. This wasn't collateral damage.
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