Kingdom Hearts fans; do you think the series should have ended at 2? (Spoliers)

[GTMippey]

Okay, so I've been on a bit of a Kingdom Hearts binge lately thanks to the 1.5 HD collection and it's re-invigorated my interest in the franchise. But this has also got me thinking, should the series have been completed after Kingdom Hearts 2, instead of continuing into BBS?

SPOILERS AHEAD


By the end of KH2, almost all the plot threads had been resolved. Sora found his way back to Destiny Islands and back to Kairi and Riku. Riku had overcome the darkness inside of him and redeemed himself from his actions in the earlier games. Organisation XIII had been eradicated, and with them, presumably the Nobodies. Donald and Goofy were re-united with King Mickey, and there was a touching scene at the end with all of them celebrating their victory. I feel like this would have been a perfect cutoff point, as pretty much everything was resolved.

BBS and the games beyond introduced concepts such as Xehanort being behind everything, all the people that Sora now needs to save, the Keyblade war, yet another Kingdom Hearts, and it's becoming kind of hard to keep up with!

Don't get me wrong, I do love most of the games and I can't wait to see what happens in Kingdom Hearts 3, but I'm curious to see if other people think that KH 1, CoM and 2 should have been the entire series, a nice, self-contained, tight trilogy of games (that were all accessible on PS2 in some form or another). Thoughts?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I would've ended it at the first game to be honest. Second game tops, making for a nice trilogy if you count Chain of Memories (which is basically a prelude to the second game). Coded is completely irrelevant to the plot, 358/2 Days just fills in the holes in the original trilogy, BBS kicks up the grimdark with a mucky prequel and DDD fucks up the neatness of KH2's finale.

I mean... how many different formats were they trying to tell a singular story on? Didn't it go something like "PS2 -> PS Vita -> PS2 -> 3DS" or something like that?

It went PS2, Game Boy Advance, PS2 again, mobile phone, Nintendo DS, PSP and Nintendo 3DS, with a bunch of remixes on the PS3 and the next game coming out on the PS4.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I would've ended it at the first game to be honest. Second game tops, making for a nice trilogy if you count Chain of Memories (which is basically a prelude to the second game). Coded is completely irrelevant to the plot, 358/2 Days just fills in the holes in the original trilogy, BBS kicks up the grimdark with a mucky prequel and DDD fucks up the neatness of KH2's finale.

I mean... how many different formats were they trying to tell a singular story on? Didn't it go something like "PS2 -> PS Vita -> PS2 -> 3DS" or something like that?

It went PS2, Game Boy Advance, PS2 again, mobile phone, Nintendo DS, PSP and Nintendo DS again, with a whole bunch of remixes on the PS3 and the next game coming out on the PS4.

Did... the developers even have any clue what they were doing? The game originally came out on the PS2, hell, that's what drew me into it in the first place, some of the trailers they released were actually pretty damn cool and for a while I saw it as a great PS2 Game... then they completely ignored the console they originally made the game on to dive straight into handhelds. While normally a "Gaijin Game" every once in a while isn't a problem, they don't seem to understand that Gaijin Games aren't supposed to be plot important.

So, they pretty much created an incomprehensible narrative made worse by the fact they expected you to have several different devices just to keep up with it!

Well, there was a PS2 port of the Game Boy game. So technically you could play "the original trilogy" on the PS2, which is what I did. After that I played some of Coded but eh not a very fun game. Haven't really played any of the other games after that. It is frustrating that they went handheld after KH2 though. And not even ONE handheld device but FIVE kinds total, while completely ignoring the PS3 and waiting a couple of generations before releasing a new game on a console. Way to go Squeenix. I guess we're supposed to be grateful they re-released everything on the PS3 now but they didn't even bother to bundle the games properly. They did KH1 + Chain + 358/2 Days and KH2 + BBS + Coded, when they should've done KH1 + Chain + KH2 to keep the original trilogy intact and then round up with Coded + 358/2 Days + BBS. You can tell they went the other way so those last games wouldn't feel the way they really are: pointless filler.

 

[SmallHatLogan]

I agree with Johnny, ending it at the first game would've been best. The thing is I don't feel like the writers are very good story tellers. The first game worked because the plot was fairly simple but still engaging. As soon as the Nobodies got introduced shit just went off the rails. There were a lot of interesting ideas, and a decent amount of stupid ideas, just too many ideas really. As a result the plot got more ridiculous and more convoluted, and the poor execution of the story didn't help much.

Birth By Sleep I'm okay with. It's largely a self contained story (and again, fairly simple) but also acts as an origin story for Ansem Seeker of Darkness.

 

[Jolly Co-operator]

To be honest, I think Kingdom Hearts shot itself in the foot... really... really badly.

I mean... how many different formats were they trying to tell a singular story on? Didn't it go something like "PS2 -> PS Vita -> PS2 -> 3DS" or something like that? And the thing is they kept putting this plot important info in the handheld games with barely an explanation as to what the hell just happened.

This is easily my biggest gripe with the series. My friends and I joke that KH3 will be changed to an Ouya exclusive. The sad part is, I wouldn't even be terribly surprised if it happened at this point.

OT: Yeah, I kind of do think it should have stopped there. I think a lot of unnecessary complexity got added to the story as time went on. What I like most about KH1 compared to its sequels is that, at its heart (see what I did there?), it felt like the exploration of the many strange and varied worlds from the Disney universe held more of the focus, while the story remained relatively simple. That's more of my personal preference than an objective criticism though.

As for the complexity, the character web is getting ridiculous. It feels like no characters in this franchise can simply exist as themselves anymore; it seems like everybody has to be someone else's Heartless, or Nobody, or be holding someone else's Heart inside themself, ugh. I'm kind of expecting it to turn out that Pete is Mickey's Heartless, and that Pluto is Goofy's Nobody.

 

[Jolly Co-operator]

EDIT: Sorry, Captcha messed with me and I ended up double-posting.

 

[Akiraking]

I am a Kingdom Hearts fanboy and have have played all the games. I got a 3ds just because there was plans for a Kingdom Hearts game. I think of the original three games as a self contained trilogy but also love all the extra games as they let me enjoy the characters, worlds and game play again and again. I know it sounds stupid but I find the convoluted storyline great because it means I am always discovering new secrets and finding references to other games. It is the only game where I really care about the lore in the same way some care about Elder Scrolls lore. So yeah I am happy they continued on but I can understand to a lot of people the multiple spin offs on different devices would be a hindrance to following the games. Though I will say the 3ds one does have information on the previous games for new players. Still does not make much sense but it is there.

 

[joshuaayt]

I don't, because I think Birth By Sleep was and remains the best KH game to date. In terms of plot? It'd be more coherent if it left at 2, but then, you could say the same of the first game; the second one made things a lot weirder.

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Depends if the third is good in terms of gameplay, plot, and resolution. Although Birth by Sleep is a generally well-regarded prequel, it was also a part of the 'setup' for the final game.

Given how painstakingly exhaustive the second game was in catching up people who might not have played the first one or Chain of Memories, I don't expect too many players to be confused. Birth by Sleep was self-contained enough to not require any previous knowledge of the series, and 358 over 2 was just a side story without any major impact on everything else.

With luck, they can upgrade the battle system into something as good as the second game without over-reliance on Reaction commands.

 

[Prepare Your Keyhole]

If the series were to end with KH2 back when it came out, then I would be okay with it. But I'm very happy that they continued with Birth By Sleep etc...

If you ask me then KH:BBS was the 'point of no return' of the Kingdom Hearts franchise (in BBS you get introduced to the real overlapping antagonist of the series in his original form, you can't just stop after that that would be silly )

Also it is fun to connect the dots of the story yourself between the games and find different references yourself .
For instance: in the opening of KHII you see Kairi on the beach when a scene shows where a seashell is absorbed into the sea ==> that shell looks like the same that Xion had in KH:358/2Days. So that scene is basically saying: 'Hello Xion ==> bye Xion D

And yes the console jumping between games is quite exhaustive but almost all the games will be on PS3 soon (except KH:3DS unfortunatly)

The more quality KH games, the better :3

 

[lachlan4567]

I'm just happy about the HD reMix of both 1 and 2.

Having all the games on one system is so freaking useful, yes 358/2 and coded are now in film form and you know what I'm okay with that, both were harder then they needed to be with shocking camera's.

Never played Birth by sleep so I'm excited for this year, even though I know the basic plot and have completed 3DD.

In response to the original question, no I don't think they should have ended it at 2.


KH1,COM and 358/2 all make up the first part while KH2,BBS and 3DD make up the second part, I'm honestly hoping for 2 spin off titles after KH3.

 

[William Fleming]

It could have ended at two if they kept out the cliffhanger at the end and that secret movie that was basically a trailer for BBS(MAJOR END SPOILERS FOR KH2)

Spoiler

With the letter with King Mickey's seal that Sora, Riku and Kairi receive at the end which now raises the question what was in written in that letter

Though in all honesty, BBS and 3D were great games so a part of me is glad for that.

 

[Raggedstar]

I somewhat agree, butI would've been content if they didn't spread themselves so bloody thin. People say "Nomura is just fleshing out the story" but the two handheld games I played barely had any (good) story or much justification of existing on the gameplay side. And besides, I wouldn't consider it to be good storytelling to spread the story into 5 smaller games, especially on platforms the fans may not have.

358/2 Days' combat and plot can't sustain itself as a proper game. It's boss fights were dull and often copy/pasted smaller enemies and it takes forever to get to meaningful plot (the Disney part of the game barely matters). I liked the climax (without going into spoilers, it's a part I always wanted to play out in KH2). I actually think the movie format in the HD remaster does a better job telling to story (PLUS you get new cutscenes, and they're really good). You turn the 20 hour game into about 2.5 hours of story and cut out the other 10+ hours of whacking the same old boring heartless with a terrible camera in the same old boring arenas because a dude in a cloak tells you to.

I actually finished KH 3D this week, so I can comment on it with it fresh in my mind. People have scolded others for calling this one a "spin-off" because it has a progression to the story, but that doesn't stop it from being not being good. When your crucial abilities (such as Leaf Bracer) are hidden behind a random, repetitive virtual pet simulator that isn't tied to the plot in any way, yes, I would consider this game wasted space and "spin-off"ish. I like the flowmotion combat (and I do hope they return to this), but for a game that's supposed to set-up KH3 and tie together and summarize the past game, I barely understood what happened. In what little I understood, not a whole lot was even accomplished until the final 10 minute cutscenes (and fuck the 2nd last boss. It's the worst KH boss I've ever seen, next to Giant Ursula in KH1). Not to mention it had all the gameplay flaws of 358/2 Days, which just leads me to believe KH is just not meant to be on a handheld.

And I also don't like Chain of Memories (I played the console version) for similar story reasons, but most of my dislike stems from the combat system. But ya, the Disney side of it barely exists, similarly to 358/2 Days.

Though another thing they're shooting themselves in the foot with is that they're kinda running out of meaningful, recognizable Disney properties. Maybe they can do more Pixar or FF/SE properties to fill in the gap (they've already squandered the chance to do TWEWY and Hunchback of Notre Dame properly in 3D), but they've already got most of the classics we all grew up with. There are rumors of Marvel, Star Wars, and Frozen in KH3, but I can't think of many others to fill an entire game.

Mind you, I am super excited to play Birth By Sleep in the 2.5HD ReMix, so I'm not that cynical. I hear it's the best of all the KH handhelds and stands strongly beside 1 and 2 in terms of quality. It's a prequel (ie a new plot format, new baddies, and new protagonists, meaning it's not just the same song and dance we treaded on in past games), so I think it can be treated differently to the others.

 

[Fox12]

I wanted a sequel for a long time, but now I wish it would die. It's clear that they didn't plan for much past 2, other than a few vague hints at Birth by Sleep, which I think they fleshed out later. KH now exemplifies everything wrong with Square, in that its become a convoluted mess. As you said, the plot threads were all finished at 2.

Now all of a sudden they're bringing back dead characters (a massive no no) and trying to retroactively rewrite the other games. For me it ended at 2, unless I hear that 3 is the greatest thing ever, which I doubt. Besides, the hype would kill a sequel for me. I'm about to graduate from college. I've been waiting since middle school. I've moved on Square.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

I think we can chalk this up to a matter of "Do you want a plot that makes you think, and one that you might enjoy trying to piece together, or do you want a simple plot you don't have to think about later?" Gametrailers did a 55 minute video on an entire plot run-down of the series and explained it all with lovely video work and clear and easy to understand voice work. After watching it, I like the plot. I like how interesting it gets. I could even say that well before the whole handheld games came in.

Yes, it is a bit of a mess, but let's put it this way. Square said "This makes money, make more!" but you don't know how to do it without it being stale? What do you do? Make a much deeper plot thread that shapes an entire storyline together. Granted, it didn't need to be done the way it was. But does that really matter? I've had fun with a number of the games so far. That's what I think matters most.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Short answer: Yes. Long answer yes, because I can't be bothered to try and keep up with it passed KH2 esp since all the side games are released on so many different systems. Of course it's too much to ask them to stop because as long as it's making money they're going to drill it into the ground.

 

[Hero of Lime]

I think Birth By Sleep is excellent, so I don't mind it's inclusion. However, I would have preferred getting Kingdom Hearts 1-3 first, to tell Sora's main story, and then they could have expanded the story with the likes of Chain of Memories, Birth By Sleep, Dream Drop Distance, Coded etc.

I am totally cool with prequels and filler stories, but it feels like they wanted to cram as many games in between the finale of the main trilogy just to make the story more epic, but for me it just feels bloated and somewhat silly now.

 

[Roxas1359]

I think Birth By Sleep is excellent, so I don't mind it's inclusion. However, I would have preferred getting Kingdom Hearts 1-3 first, to tell Sora's main story, and then they could have expanded the story with the likes of Chain of Memories, Birth By Sleep, Dream Drop Distance, Coded etc.

I am totally cool with prequels and filler stories, but it feels like they wanted to cram as many games in between the finale of the main trilogy just to make the story more epic, but for me it just feels bloated and somewhat silly now.

You...you should not steal what others are going to say, it makes it difficult for those other people to respond.

OT: While the OP doesn't seem to like BbS, I thought it was excellent, especially the combat which I still find to be the best one in the series, with Kingdom Hearts 2 in second. The KH story I think became convoluted when it came to Dream Drop Distance with some of the retcons, so I wasn't the biggest fan of that. However, after watching the Gametrailers video I was able to understand the plot again.