kotor 1 vs kotor 2

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The Black Ghost

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Kotor 1 had the better story and best twist of all time

Kotor 2 had a clunkly, cut-down story but the best character of all time...Kreia. Her monologues make my eyes water from awesomeness. She is the main reason I loved the game...and making you actually have to think about your decisions. However, the game was too linear and felt consistently too dark and lonely.
 

xXAsherahXx

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KOTOR 2 had a much better story to me. It was darker, murkier, and had many levels to it. One really saw the culture of the galaxy in that game, especially on Nar Shadaa. Most characters could be turned into jedi, and the Mandalorian Wars were greatly explored.

Everything about that game was more in-depth whereas the first was kinda like the original movies where the plot was simplistic (although glorious in its own right) and had a giant twist in it.

I love both to death, but 2 is just fucking godly.
 

SpaceBat

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Irridium said:
Alpha Protocal was Obsidian's fault, I think. Poor management I believe. Sega actually delayed the game so Obsidian can try to get it fixed up, but it was for naught. In fact, an anonymous Obsidian employee stated that the Alpha Protocol was essentially "fucked from the start". So yeah.
Well that sucks to hear. Still, got a source article for that statement? I would like to know more about what he/she meant with that.

Irridium said:
but hey, progress!
What? How is throwing away excellent writing in return for good gameplay progress? If you ask me, that's a step down from what they've usually been doing. I mean, I can fix bad gameplay with unofficial patches, but I can't fix a boring story.


j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Honestly, it may be more common than you think. Most AAA games only get finished because the developers forgo all attempts at a social or family life and spend the last few months of development time living at their desks trying to get the game finished. You'll be lucky if a publisher gives you more than two years to build a game from scratch. More often than not, it'll be less than that now.

I know publishers like to make a lot of noise about how they look out for developers, but behind the scenes they really do enjoy screwing developers like Obsidian out of development time, funding and royalties.
Hmm, yeah, I do constantly read about AAA game devs nearly abandoning their family and whatnot for months just to finish the game, so you're probably right. Pretty depressing if you think about it. Both the fact that developers rarely get enough time to finish their games and the fact that they have to abandon their lives in order to do so.
 

Robert Ewing

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KoTOR 1 is clearly far superior.

When I played KoTOR 2 I thought I had gotten some discs mixed up, because it seemed as if it was made several years before KoTOR 1. It was really disconcerting.
 

starhaven

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Daystar Clarion said:
I really liked KotOR 2.

But KotOR 1 had one of the best plot twists of all time. Who ever saw that coming? I certainly didn't, but when you look back, it all makes perfect sense.
i did not see it coming and i was honestly both shocked and suprised and maybe alittle mind blown and then they played the little videos and it all clicked in place and all i could think was you sneaky s.o.b
 

Reincarnatedwolfgod

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it's hard to say they both have part that are and parts that are bad
that being said the kotor 2 restoration mod help the the rushed game a little
http://deadlystream.com/forum/files/file/13-tslrcm/
the hk factory is part of the mod as well
 

Hatchet90

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Considering I've played KOTOR at least 5 times since it came out, I'll not only say it's my favorite KOTOR game, but also probably my favorite game of all time. KOTOR 2 just didn't feel complete. It was buggy as hell and I don't remember anything about the story (then again I've only played through it once).

I dunno, it could just be my rose-colored glasses talking.
 

Substitute Troll

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An average meeting with Kreia:

Kreia says something awesome that blows your mind.
You listen for 45 minutes.
You aren't bored, ever.
Kreia says something awesome that blows your mind, asks your opinion on the matter.
You try to find the answer that suits your tastes, but in the end you just end up picking what you think will please Kreia. Because, well, she's mother fucking Kreia!


If there was a dialogue option for: "... I LOVE YOU PLEASE BE MY GRANDMOTHER!" I would pick it.
 

4173

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Substitute Troll said:
An average meeting with Kreia:

Kreia says something awesome that blows your mind.
You listen for 45 minutes.
You aren't bored, ever.
Kreia says something awesome that blows your mind, asks your opinion on the matter.
You try to find the answer that suits your tastes, but in the end you just end up picking what you think will please Kreia. Because, well, she's mother fucking Kreia!


If there was a dialogue option for: "... I LOVE YOU PLEASE BE MY GRANDMOTHER!" I would pick it.
This.



I was lucky enough to experience no bugs, so I got a game with the same gameplay as KotOR 1 but with a much deeper, complicated story, shortened ending be damned.
 

Avatar Roku

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lunncal said:
Avatar Roku said:
lunncal said:
Well, if KOTOR 2 was ever finished it might have ended up as the better game. As it stands, it has the same gameplay (but more buggy), and a far, far worse story that makes no sense whatsoever and then ends. Oh, and Taris was bad, but it wasn't nearly as bad as the mining asteroid level.
What didn't you get? I'd be more than happy to explain anything and everything about the story.
I remember that for some reason I was on an abandoned asteroid, then Kreia is there (I hated her). Then Atton is there (I especially hated him). Uh... then I escape... Kreia's hand is chopped off and for some reason I have a "force-bond" with her so mine hurts too.

I go to Nar-Shaddaa at some point and pick up a wookie bounty-hunter.

Um... a while later my quest is to find some Jedis and either kill them or save them for some reason. Oh, and if I save them they just try to kill me later anyway.

Then... I go to the evil planet where I set off an evil-bomb before I was an exile, I kill the zombie sith guy, and Kreia wants me to kill her too for some reason. I am only too happy to comply. I push her body off the edge of the platform thing we were fighting on. The game ends. I swear violently.

Ok, so I don't remember all that much, admittedly. I do remember that I didn't get understand the plot even while I was playing it though, and what annoyed me the most is that I had no idea why I was doing any of this crap. What was my character's motivation supposed to be?
Alright, you really don't remember much, but I'll try to give you the Spark Notes version of the character motivations and such:
The Exile (who is canonically female, so I will refer to her as such) does know a lot of things you do not, however, which is one of the reasons the story is so praised; this game managed to give us a PC who HAS a past that is not explained by cutscenes and flashbacks (save one), but rather we piece it together from her interactions with others.

In addition to that, the game is REALLY about the Mandalorian Wars, which took place 10 years earlier, and again, it manages to be about that without flashbacks.

Anyway, here's the Exile's backstory, as pieced together through the game: she was a young Jedi when the Mandalorian Wars started, and she decided (for reasons that the player chooses in the present day when she talks about it, that's what I meant by being about 10 years ago without flashbacks) to defy the Council and join Revan to fight against the Mandalorians. Eventually, she became a General because of her ability to inspire her underlings (which will be VERY important later).

Anyway, because of the horrors of the last battle of the war, Malachor V, and because she lost her connection to the Force (and, it is implied, because Revan manipulated her into doing so), the Exile was the only Jedi to return to the Council to face judgement. They decided to exile her, hence her name.

She wandered around the galaxy, missing the events of the first game entirely, until eventually (and we aren't really told why), the Exile decides to return to civilization, and was going to Telos aboard the Republic ship Harbinger when certain events happened which end with the Exile being on Peragus, the first level of the game. I won't go into too much detail, but basically: Sith want the Exile dead, the Exchange wants to capture her, and Kreia wants the Exile alive for her own reasons...

Now is probably a good time to discuss what we find out when we find the Jedi Masters (assuming we do it the Light Side way and do not kill them). We're told that the Exile always created Force Bonds with others, unintentionally. These bonds were VERY strong (hence the fact that she could feel Kreia's pain when her hand was cut off) and were created VERY quickly. While she was a General, she created thousands of these bonds. And then, at Malachor V, all those bonds were violently cut off at the same time. So she had to cut herself off from the force or she would have died. This somehow damaged the Force itself; the Exile became a hole, a "wound" in the force, but she didn't stop creating those bonds. In fact, the bonding got even stronger, The Exile basically became a Force black hole; she created those bonds and used the Force through others.

Now for Kreia's motivations. Kreia hates the Jedi Council, but she does not want them dead. Basically, Kreia had some interesting beliefs that the Jedi did not share. She believed, among other things, in moral relativism, and disliked both the pure light side and the pure dark side. She preached balance, essentially (She also hated the Force itself, but more on that later). However, every student she ever had (including, it is revealed, Revan) turned to the Dark Side, and eventually she was shunned by the Council. She decided she wanted revenge. Not, in a refreshing change of pace, by killing them, but rather by showing them how wrong they were. So, she finds the Exile (who is dead to the force, which interests her for other reasons) and decides to train her. She also tells The Exile one, simple lie: The Council is the reason you were cut off from the Force. She did this so the Exile would find the Council members and get them all to meet up, which is exactly what happens if you are light side.

When you are light side, you meet the council. This should be Kreia's moment of triumph, but the Council was blind. You know what, I'm gonna quote a certain LP [http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/] here. This guy explains it really well:
"Kreia gathered the Jedi Masters here for a purpose: revenge. But for her, revenge didn?t mean killing them. If the Exile had gone Dark Side and fought each of the Jedi Masters, Kreia would have berated him for being such a murderous idiot and not learning anything from her.

Kreia was cast out of the Jedi Order for her beliefs. The council disagreed with her teachings, and the fact that most of her students ended up going all evil and whatnot didn?t exactly help her case. All this time in exile, she schemed to find a way to get back at them, to show them the error of their ways. For her, victory would have been the Jedi Council admitting they were wrong.

She never intended to kill them, since it would have been a hollow victory that way. But they were stubborn idiots and they forced her to act. That?s why she sounds so regretful here."

That was Kreia's motivation for most of the game. After the Council dies, she sort of BSODs and something...different happens.

Throughout the entire game, there had been an undercurrent in the dialogue with Kreia: she was all for everyone's freedom to choose. And yet, there exists the Force, which controls everything and seems to have a will of it's own. Kreia HATES this idea, that there can be this omniscient force whose will supersedes all others. That was the other reason Kreia sought out the Exile: she was the only person in the galaxy who was completely free of the Force, and Kreia loved her for that.

Again, the LPer sums it up well:
"Star Wars has more similarities to Tolkien and high fantasy than most sci-fi franchises, and one of the most telling aspects of it is that you have destiny disguised as the Force. Everyone keeps saying the Force guides all things, trust the Force, etc. Then you you take a control-freak like Kreia who values self-determination above all else, yet who uses the Force as well, and suddenly you have this fate vs. free will dichotomy manifested within the same character."

This part is actually quite hard to explain, so I will just link [http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2059/] to the page in the LP that covers this part.
That post went on for longer than I expected, and it still barely scratches the surface. I recommend you read the LP I posted in there, it really does a great job.
 

Da Orky Man

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Apr 24, 2011
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Loved them both. However, I do think that KotOR 2 had better gameplay overall, though KotOR had that one twist. Someone else decide.
 

Princess Rose

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Princess Molestia said:
They both suck equally.
This.

I honestly don't understand why KOTOR is considered such a gem. Planescape Torment is better than KOTOR (either one) in every possible way.
 

KingHodor

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Am I the only one who wasn't impressed by KOTOR1's twist?
Mostly because it never made sense to me that...
...supposedly only a handful of people knew what Revan's face looked like. Why? I mean yeah, I guess I can buy that he always wore his mask in public during his stint as a Sith Lord, maybe even during his time in the Mandalorian wars... but shouldn't there still be tons of photos of his face from his time as a Jedi? You'd figure the Republic would have released those photos as a propaganda tool ("Revan isn't a mysterious Sith demigod, he's just a force-sensitive human who hides behind a mask. He bleeds like the rest of us, except maybe with a few more midichlorians!"), or atleast issue them to their troops so that they would be able to identify the guy in the unlikely event that he'd have to go into hiding.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Daystar Clarion said:
I really liked KotOR 2.

But KotOR 1 had one of the best plot twists of all time. Who ever saw that coming? I certainly didn't, but when you look back, it all makes perfect sense.
agreed. first time i got to that part i dropped the controller and my jaw going "WAHHH IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!" then i proceeded to face palm looking back at every single damn hint they dropped that i completely absorbed but didn't ponder on.

IMO, kotor 2 has a much more in depth and detailed world, that makes it a truly amazing rpg compared to any sci fi universe out there.

however, i still think kotor 1's epicness might have trumped it, the last section of the game in kotor 2 absolutely falls apart while kotor 1's is epic beyond belief, and that really stuck with me.

Golan Trevize said:
Daystar Clarion said:
I really liked KotOR 2.

But KotOR 1 had one of the best plot twists of all time. Who ever saw that coming? I certainly didn't, but when you look back, it all makes perfect sense.
I did and it surprises me that there is somebody who didn't saw it coming, the game does everything but outright tell you that you are Revan.
you obviously haven't checked out many kotor threads..if anything you are in a small minority (<25% of people who've played kotor before having the twist revealed to them by other means)
 

SpaceBat

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Princess Rose said:
I honestly don't understand why KOTOR is considered such a gem. Planescape Torment is better than KOTOR (either one) in every possible way.
Yes, PS:T is better than any of the KotoR games in nearly every way possible, but PS:T is better than pretty much any other RPG ever made (IMO), so saying that the KotoR games are worse doesn't mean much. Although I do believe that the fact that PS:T doesn't even get remotely the attention the first KotoR game is getting is incredibly saddening.

And I'm going to have to disagree with the "in every possible way" part. Kreia is often considered one of the best characters in any RPG ever for a good reason. Most of the cast is actually incredibly well done, so PS:T doesn't really trump KotoR 2 in this aspect IMO. Also, there was a scene in KotoR 2 that not even PS:T could do as efficiently. It was a discussion between you and an NPC with tons of different and interesting dialogue choices and all of them having no effect on your alignment.

Yes, I know, it's just one scene, but still. It was such a good scene, I simply can't let that comment slide!

NOTE: This has nothing to do with you disliking the game, obviously. People have different opinions on what makes a good RPG, so I wasn't talking about that.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Princess Rose said:
Princess Molestia said:
They both suck equally.
This.

I honestly don't understand why KOTOR is considered such a gem. Planescape Torment is better than KOTOR (either one) in every possible way.
*see's names*


hm maybe the game just isn't for princesses? perhaps?

in every possible way? that's quite hard to imagine, i haven't finished planescape torment, and i'll say from what i've played it's damn good, but judging the games in such a sweeping manner doesn't really seem fair, especially due to when they respectively came out.
 

Macheteswordgun

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Avatar Roku said:
the27thvoice said:
You might have a point, Obsidian seems to have good ideas with the gameplay and genuinely good stories (goes for both KotOR 2 and Fallout NV). But they don't finish their projects. I don't care why, they aren't finished. They ship buggy with soryline areas walled off at the last second because they ran out of time, they are never properly patched and goes a bit too far.

Take for example your companions being jedi. Jedis were awesome in KotOR, something Obsidian wanted to repeat. So now you get a jedi companion. And you can train another companion to be a jedi. And another. And another. Actually, the droids are the only ones who won't be jedis by the end. What the hell!?!

Too much of a good thing is not a better thing, it's just too much.

I'd say KotOR 2 showed some real potential, but I didn't buy the potential, I bought a buggy, unfinished game that they never bothered to complete or fix. No, that does not make it better.
KotOR II being unfinished was really, genuinely not Obsidian's fault. Lucasarts decided they wanted a 13 month development cycle several months after the game started to be made, with the plans originally having been to have at least 2 years. Lucasarts was also the reason it was never patched; Obsidian wanted to release a patch to fix it but Lucasarts said no.

Good point about the Jedis, though, I hadn't really caught that. I mean, narratively it made sense (part of the Exile's whole thing is that she attracts Force Sensitives), but I hadn't really thought about that in terms of gameplay before. Probably because The Exile becomes so OP that the party doesn't even matter.

(also, FYI, Mandalore doesn't become a Jedi, but that's probably because he's more machine than man (heh))
Basically what this person said cept there was a glitch some kinda mask or helmet gave the ability to use lightsabers so at one point in time i had my mandalore dual wielding lightsabers. I liked him being melee more than ranged
 
May 28, 2009
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SpaceBat said:
Pretty much. If only Obsidian actually polished and finished their games. I hated the unfinished sub-plots in my game (which I can't mod, due to it being the EU version).
Huh? I can mod my copy just fine and I'm using the EU version. Here's a good link for a version that's worked fine for me: http://deadlystream.com/forum/files/file/13-tslrcm/

I think they're getting close to another update.

At any rate, whilst I enjoyed both games immensely, I'm in the camp that believe KotOR II to have the better story and writing. Absolutely brilliant game, and that restoration mod does wonders for it.