KOTOR2 - Mass Effect 3. Apathy is death.

[KingofMadCows]

I think the OP is being sarcastic.

Anyway, KotoR2 didn't exactly have much of an ending either since the game's unfinished.

All Obsidian games are unfinished.

The fact that Obsidian was detailed as said games maker makes saying it is unfinished kinda unnecessary.

As were Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, Vampire: The Masquerad - Bloodlines, and pretty much every game made by Black Isle and the two developers that spawned from it, Troika and Obsidian. And despite such shortcomings, they are still extremely well written stories set in very detailed morally grey worlds full of nuance and subtlety, where you aren't forced into making obviously good or bad decisions, and where your choices actually matter.

 

[SajuukKhar]

As were Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, Vampire: The Masquerad - Bloodlines, and pretty much every game made by Black Isle and the two developers that spawned from it, Troika and Obsidian. And despite such shortcomings, they are still extremely well written stories set in very detailed morally grey worlds full of nuance and subtlety, where you aren't forced into making obviously good or bad decisions, and where your choices actually matter.

If by choices mattering you mean getting totally invalidated and made meaningless by the future games in the case of Fallout-Fallout 2, and Fallout2-New vegas, then sure.

The others I never played, except planescape torment though I didn't like it that much.

 

[KingofMadCows]

As were Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, Vampire: The Masquerad - Bloodlines, and pretty much every game made by Black Isle and the two developers that spawned from it, Troika and Obsidian. And despite such shortcomings, they are still extremely well written stories set in very detailed morally grey worlds full of nuance and subtlety, where you aren't forced into making obviously good or bad decisions, and where your choices actually matter.

If by choices mattering you mean getting totally invalidated and made meaningless by the future games in the case of fallout-Fallout 2, and Fallout2-New vegas, then sure.

Yes, because Black Isle/Bethesda/Obsidian planned the Fallout franchise to be an interconnected series of games and they promised that the choices you made in one game would carry over to the next one in the series. And players went into the game knowing full well that future games likely would follow the exact same choices that they made in the current game.

And all future Mass Effect games will give you a choice to follow the ending you choose instead of EA/Bioware deciding to have it follow the one they want.

Right?

 

[Jedoro]

KotOR 2...is not by BioWare. Why you bring it up as an example for BioWare stories is beyond me.

This

I didn't even read the whole OP because Obsidian made KOTOR2. Good research, Jester.

 

[DoPo]

Also, wtf is wrong with you people getting so hung up on the "lesson"-bullshit that the OP wrote? It was sarcasm...and hell, even if it somehow wasn't, it was ONE sentence out of many. Jesus, does correcting and talking down to people really get you off so much that you can't resist it?

It is one sentence...out of six. Two out of fourteen in from everything OP wrote. Significant portion on its own. Also, it's one of the most important points that the entire topic makes. Why do people get hung up on it - dunno, maybe because it's was the whole point of the topic.

 

[Gennadios]

Get used to it, their best writers are gone, it's only gonna get worse from here.

 

[Phlakes]

...What? I'm just gonna pretend this was a joke, keep myself from attempting suicide for the twentieth time this week.

 

[Del-Toro]

If I accept the ridiculous premise that games need to teach you some valueable life lesson, then the lesson "There is no such thing as a clean victory in war" is actually a pretty good one.

Even if you take it out of the war context, as you did, it is a decent lesson. "Life does not always reward effort" seems like a good lesson to teach young people.

Otherwise they might figure that just because they fought bravely and resisted valiantly there is going to wait some kind of prize on them in the morgue.

Basically this. I haven't played ME3 (please don't burn me for heresy) but it seems, from the first two games, that the victory against the reapers being anything but pyrrhic would be even worse writing. More inspirational, perhaps, but if the combined might of a single galaxy's life was enough to curb stomp the reapers without the galaxy being somewhat gutted afterwards drastically undermines how they were built up.

Say what you will about Halo, and there is alot to say, but at least the aftermath of Halo 3, or at least what is implied about it, fits with how everything else has been set up. If Bungie can do it, certainly Bioware can get that detail right as well.

 

[DoPo]

Also, wtf is wrong with you people getting so hung up on the "lesson"-bullshit that the OP wrote? It was sarcasm...and hell, even if it somehow wasn't, it was ONE sentence out of many. Jesus, does correcting and talking down to people really get you off so much that you can't resist it?

It is one sentence...out of six. Two out of fourteen in from everything OP wrote. Significant portion on its own. Also, it's one of the most important points that the entire topic makes. Why do people get hung up on it - dunno, maybe because it's was the whole point of the topic.

In which case is too stupid to take seriously anyway. Thanks for proving my point.

There is literally nothing else to do in this topic aside from correct TC. There is no discussion value because the OP is flawed and offers none.

 

[DoPo]

Also, wtf is wrong with you people getting so hung up on the "lesson"-bullshit that the OP wrote? It was sarcasm...and hell, even if it somehow wasn't, it was ONE sentence out of many. Jesus, does correcting and talking down to people really get you off so much that you can't resist it?

It is one sentence...out of six. Two out of fourteen in from everything OP wrote. Significant portion on its own. Also, it's one of the most important points that the entire topic makes. Why do people get hung up on it - dunno, maybe because it's was the whole point of the topic.

In which case is too stupid to take seriously anyway. Thanks for proving my point.

There is literally nothing else to do in this topic aside from correct TC. There is no discussion value because the OP is flawed and offers none.

"Mass Effect 3 ? Considering possible endings i think that it would be best to pack my crew at the end of Mass Effect 2 and leave known space, hide somewhere safe with enough resources to live "happily ever after". There's no reason to struggle, since all we can count on is at best Pyrrhic victory."

I think that sounds like a valid argument, given what we know and all the previous discussions we've had.

This whole thread is still pointless overall, like many others before it, it brings nothing new to the table...but you know...uh...yeah.

No it doesn't - it tries to make a connection between KotOR 2 and ME 3, which falls short. Then the question it asks is why is BioWare teaching inappropriate lessons to the children. That is the point it tried to make. But it is flat out wrong because the of the two games mentioned only one is BioWare's. But it's also wrong twice because the game is not intended for children, hence BioWare are not teaching them anything.

How can we discuss two things BioWare hasn't done?

 

[Radoh]

Just an impression.
KOTOR2 tried to teach us about the value of action, struggling, choosing even worst case scenario over doing completely nothing.

Mass Effect 3 ? Considering possible endings i think that it would be best to pack my crew at the end of Mass Effect 2 and leave known space, hide somewhere safe with enough resources to live "happily ever after". There's no reason to struggle, since all we can count on is at best Pyrrhic victory.

Seriously Bioware... Is it really the best lesson to teach youngsters nowadays ?

Neither of these things are aimed at giving children the Aesop ending, considering both have subject matter in them not exactly squeaky clean for kids to see.
Also, they don't need to give any "final lessons" to be learned, like at all.
Additionally, Bioware didn't make Kotor 2.

Closing statement, I suspect this be trolling.

 

[KingofMadCows]

Since when are small children the target audience for the ME trilogy (or KotOR, for that matter)?

Since never. Mass Effect is full of genocide, war, genocide, sex, genocide, citizenship, war, genocide, suicide, mothers dying in front of their children, genocide, children dying in front of their mothers, more genocide, finding ones place within the universe, genocide, child experimentation, genocide, homosexuality, sacrifice, genocide, inevitability, genocide, artificial intelligence and it's right to life, genocide, the ethics of genocide and finally genocide.

And KoTOR2 was arguably much darker.

Come now, Justice League and Avatar: The Last Airbender dealt with things like finding one's place in the world/universe, loyalty, betrayal, politics, oppression, torture, genocide, slavery, human experimentation, etc. Batman: The Animated Series dealt with murder, drugs, child slavery, madness, obsession, revenge, lost love, never being able to find one's place in the world, etc. Gargoyles dealt with a lot of that stuff too. Young Justice and the new Green Lantern show are also dealing with some serious subject matters. Mass Effect is simply more gratuitous in its violence, gore and sex. Remove the violence and sex, and it's not that much darker or mature than a Bruce Timm show.

 

[Jodah]

I think the OP is being sarcastic.

Anyway, KotoR2 didn't exactly have much of an ending either since the game's unfinished.

I think the OP is being sarcastic.

Anyway, KotoR2 didn't exactly have much of an ending either since the game's unfinished.

All Obsidian games are unfinished.

It was only a few short months away from being finished when the publishers forced Obsidian to wrap it up. Some of the incomplete sections are even on the 360 disc, some of the best bits in fact. One part with HK47 (It's even more awesome than you think) was basically 90% done and even had most of it voiced and shit. Didn't matter, it had to go.

Also, wtf is wrong with you people getting so hung up on the "lesson"-bullshit that the OP wrote? It was sarcasm...and hell, even if it somehow wasn't, it was ONE sentence out of many. Jesus, does correcting and talking down to people really get you off so much that you can't resist it?

Silly, rule number one of fighting someone on the internet: If you can't refute their entire argument take one sentence out of context and refute that.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Just an impression.
KOTOR2 tried to teach us about the value of action, struggling, choosing even worst case scenario over doing completely nothing.

Mass Effect 3 ? Considering possible endings i think that it would be best to pack my crew at the end of Mass Effect 2 and leave known space, hide somewhere safe with enough resources to live "happily ever after". There's no reason to struggle, since all we can count on is at best Pyrrhic victory.

Seriously Bioware... Is it really the best lesson to teach youngsters nowadays ?

Neither of these things are aimed at giving children the Aesop ending, considering both have subject matter in them not exactly squeaky clean for kids to see.
Also, they don't need to give any "final lessons" to be learned, like at all.
Additionally, Bioware didn't make Kotor 2.

Closing statement, I suspect this be trolling.

I love how everyone automatically assumes that he's trolling or an idiot. I can vouch for Jester to say that he would not make a troll thread. And because one game is made by a different company than another, that does not mean that you cannot compare them.

As for this particular comparison, I can kinda see what he means. In KOTOR 2, there is a lesson that even when faced with certain failure, your actions will still have consequences, and you can change the future depending on how you react.

In Mass Effect 3, with the endings being what they are, there is no incentive to even try, because everything has been preordained in regards to the final act. That unlike in KOTOR 2, you don't get the feeling that your actions ever mattered, if they are all invalidated in the end.

It's the fundamental difference between the two games. In KOTOR 2, it is explicitly said that the journey is the focus, not the outcome. In Mass Effect, you want to see the payoff of your efforts, which would theoretically affect the endgame like they had in Mass Effect 2.

So stop and think for a moment before throwing out the word Troll.

 

[Irridium]

Just an impression.
KOTOR2 tried to teach us about the value of action, struggling, choosing even worst case scenario over doing completely nothing.

Mass Effect 3 ? Considering possible endings i think that it would be best to pack my crew at the end of Mass Effect 2 and leave known space, hide somewhere safe with enough resources to live "happily ever after". There's no reason to struggle, since all we can count on is at best Pyrrhic victory.

Seriously Bioware... Is it really the best lesson to teach youngsters nowadays ?

Neither of these things are aimed at giving children the Aesop ending, considering both have subject matter in them not exactly squeaky clean for kids to see.
Also, they don't need to give any "final lessons" to be learned, like at all.
Additionally, Bioware didn't make Kotor 2.

Closing statement, I suspect this be trolling.

I love how everyone automatically assumes that he's trolling or an idiot. I can vouch for Jester to say that he would not make a troll thread. And because one game is made by a different company than another, that does not mean that you cannot compare them.

As for this particular comparison, I can kinda see what he means. In KOTOR 2, there is a lesson that even when faced with certain failure, your actions will still have consequences, and you can change the future depending on how you react.

In Mass Effect 3, with the endings being what they are, there is no incentive to even try, because everything has been preordained in regards to the final act. That unlike in KOTOR 2, you don't get the feeling that your actions ever mattered, if they are all invalidated in the end.

It's the fundamental difference between the two games. In KOTOR 2, it is explicitly said that the journey is the focus, not the outcome. In Mass Effect, you want to see the payoff of your efforts, which would theoretically affect the endgame like they had in Mass Effect 2.

So stop and think for a moment before throwing out the word Troll.

Kind of sad how everyone seems to have devalued the word "troll" into "someone who's opinion differs from mine". Or "I don't quite understand, so this person is obviously a troll".

 

[TsunamiWombat]

I will articulate a megapost later, but for now:

http://angryjoeshow.com/2012/03/top-10-reasons-we-hate-mass-effect-3s-ending/