Kylo Ren was the highlight of TFA SPOILERS

[Tohuvabohu]

Guys, that's not how fighting works. Skill with one weapon doesn't equal skill with another. This isn't Fallout, she didn't pause the movie to level up her Melee skills to 75 and unlock the LightSaber Specialist perk.
She has no idea how to hold her hands, her feet, her shoulders, how to move, strike. Nothing. She had never held a lightsaber before, she had only barely touched one. And had literally never used the force before.

Keep in mind Luke was some sort of prodigy and even with the help of a Master like Obi Wan Luke couldn't beat a single training droid for the first movie. And it took to the 2nd movie to be able to use his powers.

And here's Rey, beating Ren. Who despite what you believe, was trained. Fully? No. But certainly years and years and years of training and combat experience. Enough to kill all other Padawans and presumably enough to survive a fight with Luke.
And then he got more training.

Agreed with pretty much everything here.

One thing to remember about Kylo Ren, is that he is NOT a Sith. There's not enough details to understand how his training in the Dark Side work, but it seems to be profoundly different from Sith ideology.

The Sith have the Rule of Two, which is that there is that there is always a Master and Apprentice. More than that, both are always titled under "Darth". Kylo seems to come from something else entirely. The Knights of Ren. Which were mentioned once in the movie. And even Supreme Leader Snoke didn't seem to work like a typical Sith Lord.

The advantage of the Rule of Two is that, even though there is only one apprentice, they tend to be very powerful. Kylo Ren is definitely not at the level of a Sith Apprentice, so I wonder what exactly his training entails and how Snoke plans on increasing his strength - If he is not possibly the only Dark Jedi he is training.

Mind you, all of this isn't mean to explain away Rei's sudden god-mode towards the last third of the movie and eventual defeat of a trained dark jedi in a lightsaber duel. No... That was total horseshit. And I mean bad fanfiction levels of horseshit.

I could understand Rei's powers "awakening" and her being able to use inconsistent outbursts of force powers in her confusion and desperation.

But for her to glance a Stormtrooper and go "You will release me." and somehow it working quite honestly made me want to laugh. As if that wasn't ridiculous enough, she eventually defeats Kylo Ren in a saber duel. Injured though he was, it still doesn't make Rei holding a lightsaber and being magically effective with it acceptable.

I thought Finn's actions with a lightsaber were more understandable. He was clumsy, nervous, and ungraceful with it. How did Rei do it then? The Force? I'll go ahead and quote Han Solo: "That's not how The Force WORKS." I don't care how much "training" Rei allegedly have when she was young. I doubt she was brainwashing people and dancing with lightsabers when she was 8 years old.

Oh well. I still liked the movie and found it to be a greatly enjoyable watch, but it had its problems. Which I expected. Overall though, I'd say it's positives and high-points definitely outweigh the sum of its flaws.

 

[Neverhoodian]

One reviewer I watched likened Kylo's character to audience expectations of the role itself. Trying to fill the shoes of a villain like Darth Vader is a monumental task, one that would give any actor pause. Rather than trying to skirt the issue and try anyway, the film instead embraces it by making Ren feel the exact same way in-universe. He reveres Vader to the point of emulating him, yet he's terrified that he can't compare (which he doesn't...at least not yet). Our uncertainty is his uncertainty, and in doing so it actually serves to differentiate himself from Vader in a meaningful way.

Sounds like joining the First Order is alot worse than the Empire if they snack children away from their parent to the point they don't remember their real name!

Snatching children away from their parents to live a cloistered life of social privation...where have I heard that one before?

#GrayJediforlife

 

[Beliyal]

I'll just post this before the mods move the thread, but Ben was a really dumb character with no motivation, no development or arc, no motivation beyond being a dick, an incredibly lazy and shoe-horned connection to Han, and a dumb as fucking fuck haircut.

Also he apparently sucks as a Sith because a literal random chick who no fighting experience kicked his ass.

A couple things about that final fight, Rei did seem to have some fighting experience earlier in the film. Ren was also hit buy Chewie's bowcaster after Han's death and you see the blood on the ground. He also had the emotional weirdness of having killed his father.

He also fought Finn before fighting Rey. Emotionally charged second battle in a short time span while wounded aren't exactly the most favorable odds.

I also wouldn't say that Rey is a random chick, as she clearly has some important past and is also strongly Force-sensitive. On top of that, she survived in the desert, alone, her whole life. It was pretty obvious that she can handle difficult and life-threatening situations and was previously shown beating up two opponents with only a staff. Not exactly a nobody with zero training and experience.

I really liked those Kylo/Finn and Kylo/Rey battles for how... real they felt. The sabers looked like they were actually heavy and difficult to use, the battles were clumsy and not perfectly choreographed, none of the users were experts, everybody was exhausted and it was all very filled with emotions. I hope they keep that feel. Lightsabers have been really cheapened by the prequels and it still hurts.

OT: I liked Kylo Ren for the same reasons mentioned by the OP. It's especially refreshing to see someone tempted by the Light side, instead of the Dark side. I was skeptical about Kylo before the movie, but the character surprised me positively. Characters in general were a major positive thing from the movie to me.

 

[Hoplon]

SNIP

SNIP

Guys, that's not how fighting works. Skill with one weapon doesn't equal skill with another. This isn't Fallout, she didn't pause the movie to level up her Melee skills to 75 and unlock the LightSaber Specialist perk.
She has no idea how to hold her hands, her feet, her shoulders, how to move, strike. Nothing. She had never held a lightsaber before, she had only barely touched one. And had literally never used the force before.

Keep in mind Luke was some sort of prodigy and even with the help of a Master like Obi Wan Luke couldn't beat a single training droid for the first movie. And it took to the 2nd movie to be able to use his powers.

And here's Rey, beating Ren. Who despite what you believe, was trained. Fully? No. But certainly years and years and years of training and combat experience. Enough to kill all other Padawans and presumably enough to survive a fight with Luke.
And then he got more training.

he killed the padawans? where do we see that? he's had years of sabre training? pretty sure you just made that up out of whole cloth. we do not know who caused the problem at the academy, no idea if he's had any actual sabre training at all, certainly doesn't use the blade at all in the film as if he has. and yes i know that's not how you master a weapon, but it does explain how she can out fight an equally inexperienced wielder, which he clearly is.

 

[Spider RedNight]

I actually think he was one of the weakest parts of the movie. Just another whiny emo kid with daddy issues and blah blah blah. Also I couldn't understand a single word he was saying without the helmet on.

On the plus side, I thought it was AWESOME when Rei kicked his ass - that's the first time there's been a chick with a lightsaber in the movies and she OWNED him and it was awesome and *eeee*

 

[Zontar]

I actually think he was one of the weakest parts of the movie. Just another whiny emo kid with daddy issues and blah blah blah. Also I couldn't understand a single word he was saying without the helmet on.

On the plus side, I thought it was AWESOME when Rei kicked his ass - that's the first time there's been a chick with a lightsaber in the movies and she OWNED him and it was awesome and *eeee*

I feel the other way around, I felt that not only was Rey the weakest part of the movie, but that her absence would have made things better, while Ren was believable in his actions and state, with the only real negative I could say being that he should have kept his helmet on until his scene with Han.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Personally I think his outfit is weak sauce. It just looks so BLAND. Darth Vader this guy is not.

I have seen more badass looking Sith Lords than this guy heck SNOKE looks more intimidating.

This guy got nothing on these Darths:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/a/aa/Six_Sith_Lords.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130213164902

 

[direkiller]

Also he apparently sucks as a Sith because a literal random chick who no fighting experience kicked his ass.

I think that was the reason that he got shot with the bowcaster, a weapon they were hyping up for the entire movie.

to make it so a non-force user and a rookie could take on a guy trained in lightsaber combat.

and yea even if he was not a sith lord or Darth yet, he still has done light saber combat for most of his life.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

Uhh Han mentions Luke was trying to restart the Jedi but one of the Padawans went to the dark side and killed the others. Then when Rei is touching the Lightsaber she has a vision of Ren(lightsaber activated) and some stormtroopers standing in a field of corpses as it rains and Luke is kneeling.

Not sure what you took away from that, but I understood it as Ren killed the other padawans using his lightsaber.

 

[Zontar]

Also he apparently sucks as a Sith because a literal random chick who no fighting experience kicked his ass.

I think that was the reason that he got shot with the bowcaster, a weapon they were hyping up for the entire movie.

to make it so a non-force user and a rookie could take on a guy trained in lightsaber combat.

and yea even if he was not a sith lord or Darth yet, he still has done light saber combat for most of his life.

You know what would have made it more interesting though? Having the fight between Kylo and Rey go in the opposite direction, where even after being shot by the bowcaster, and after exerting himself with his fight with Finn, he's still keeping the upper hand, messing with Rey as he tries to convince her to join the dark side, and when she doesn't kicking her ass to the point where the only reason she's saved is the collapse of the planet.

It would show the audience that even with all that he had going against him he was dualing circles around our heroes, showing how much they have to improve for the fight in the next movies if they want to have any hope of wining. But that would have been interesting and meant that there where stakes involved, and we can't have any of that now can we?

 

[Hoplon]

SNIP

Uhh Han mentions Luke was trying to restart the Jedi but one of the Padawans went to the dark side and killed the others. Then when Rei is touching the Lightsaber she has a vision of Ren(lightsaber activated) and some stormtroopers standing in a field of corpses as it rains and Luke is kneeling.

Not sure what you took away from that, but I understood it as Ren killed the other padawans using his lightsaber.

there are no bodies in that shot, just the knights of Ren (non of the rest of whom seem to have a light sabre. so not sure who he is doing all that light sabre training with) and some lumpy ground (the shot is in trailer 1) don't know what they are. he's certainly not explicitly killing anyone, just standing in the rain. it's inference that they are bodies. it might even be the correct inference. So what i took away from that was he was the bad guy, even though Rey had never met him.

 

[Mahorfeus]

Frankly, I was of the impression that for a movie introducing a bunch of new characters, it did a much better job of establishing them than A New Hope did for the original cast. Kylo included.

As a character Kylo is clearly childish and unhinged, but I like the contrast that puts between him and Vader. At several points the officers are clearly worried about being hacked to bits, but he throws temper tantrums instead. He's hardly my favorite character, but I like that he is very clearly flawed, and that he isn't another dark, brooding Vader clone. Though he wishes he could be.

The most interesting thing about him I think is that he apparently had no idea that Vader was redeemed in the end. Vader (or Anakin, rather) was strong enough to throw off the mantle of the Dark Side and turn back to the Light for the sake of his own son. Kylo Ren wants to become Vader, but is utterly ignorant of the strength his idol truly had. Ironically, allowing Han to redeem him would have allowed him to surpass his grandfather, but instead he failed utterly.

I'm very curious as to whether that knowledge could be the key to his redemption, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the man he's been seeking all along is one of the few people that likely know about Vader's redemption.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

Uhh Han mentions Luke was trying to restart the Jedi but one of the Padawans went to the dark side and killed the others. Then when Rei is touching the Lightsaber she has a vision of Ren(lightsaber activated) and some stormtroopers standing in a field of corpses as it rains and Luke is kneeling.

Not sure what you took away from that, but I understood it as Ren killed the other padawans using his lightsaber.

there are no bodies in that shot, just the knights of Ren (non of the rest of whom seem to have a light sabre. so not sure who he is doing all that light sabre training with) and some lumpy ground (the shot is in trailer 1) don't know what they are. he's certainly not explicitly killing anyone, just standing in the rain. it's inference that they are bodies. it might even be the correct inference. So what i took away from that was he was the bad guy, even though Rey had never met him.

Wait, I thought it made it very clear they were bodies. Like there's a lightning flash and we see limbs, heads, still attached to bodies but also very clearly distinct.
Everyone I went with understood them to be the bodies of the other padawans.

 

[Jadak]

A lot of the dispute seems to be over the Kylo vs Rey fight and how she shouldn't have had a chance.

People are right to defend that by saying Kylo is a bit of an untrained wannaba and that Rey had at least some melee experience so perhaps it is false expectation for Kylo to win. The only problem is that right from the start of the movie they made too much of a point of establishing Kylo as ridiculously powerful. Stopping blaster bolts in the air? Massively powerful force gripping peoples entire bodies? Dude has power.

So no, raw power does not equate to sword skills, but if establish a character has being so damn powerful and then expect to pass him off as weak at the same time, it's no surprise the distinction is lost on viewers.

And more importantly, isn't it besides the point? You can argue he'd lose in a sword fight all you want, but with the filmmakers demonstrating him having that sort of force power, he could have ended that fight at any given time. Hell, they demonstrated exactly that when Rey got crunched against a tree the moment they met in the forest, and that was nothing.

 

[Tohuvabohu]

The only problem is that right from the start of the movie they made too much of a point of establishing Kylo as ridiculously powerful. Stopping blaster bolts in the air? Massively powerful force gripping peoples entire bodies? Dude has power.

So no, raw power does not equate to sword skills, but if establish a character has being so damn powerful and then expect to pass him off as weak at the same time, it's no surprise the distinction is lost on viewers.

I'd agree with this, if it weren't for one thing that you left out - Rey overpowered Kylo's force strength multiple times.

First when she resisted his mind reading, and pushed back hard enough to read Kylo's own thoughts and emotions. And again when Rey overpowered Kylo's force pull of Luke's saber.

You can argue Rey's sudden grasp of saber combat just by holding a lightsaber makes sense based on her knowing how to throw a kick or swing a bo staff... Personally, I think this makes no sense but moving on.

Your point that Ren's strength is that of the Force but Rey's strength is that of melee combat, falls flat when you take into consideration the fact that she somehow also managed to overpower Kylo's well-established Force Strength for no well established reasons of her own besides sudden god-mode.

 

[RealRT]

I thought him being an in-universe Vader wannabe who tries way too hard to be cool was actually kinda clever. He's immature and whiny, but unlike having a sympathetic motivation like Anakin he has none. I would actually like Anakin's ghost (not played by Christensen, of course) to meet him in a future movie and chastize him for doing what he did.

I'll just post this before the mods move the thread, but Ben was a really dumb character with no motivation, no development or arc, no motivation beyond being a dick, an incredibly lazy and shoe-horned connection to Han, and a dumb as fucking fuck haircut.

Also he apparently sucks as a Sith because a literal random chick who no fighting experience kicked his ass.

Well he ain't even a Sith, he's member of some new "Knights of Ren" order. Also, no *swordfighting* experience, but her prowess in melee in general was already set up.

 

[Beliyal]

snip

It's definitely true that he is very powerful with the Force, but that doesn't have much bearing on swordsmanship. As a matter of fact, he should've just ditched the lightsaber and thrown both Finn and Rey off the cliff with a Force push immediately.

I didn't find his loss unbelievable mainly because he was heavily wounded, exhausted and lacked focus due to the straining emotional event that happened prior. Even if he was vastly better at using the lightsaber, all of that would've taken a toll. The fact that he could do anything at all after being shot with Chewie's crossbow-thingy is a miracle in itself, seeing as that thing literally instantly defeated others blasted by it. So I don't take his loss as some sort of proof of Rey's incredible skill or his lack of it. Also, saying he definitely lost is kinda inaccurate; the battle was interrupted by the ground splitting open and then Rey left. He was wounded by her, but not thoroughly defeated and unable to move.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

So I've come to a realization having talked this whole Rey knows how to use the force and a lightsaber thing.
She's Luke's daughter. And he had already begun her training when Ren fell to the dark side and he left her to keep her safe. Which also explains Luke's defeated anger at the end of the movie. He wasn't running from Ren, but his daughter.
So her innate knowledge of sabers and the Force comes from having actually been training by her dad, but abandonment and PTSD have forced her to forget her origins.

Calling it now, Rey is Luke's daughter.

 

[RealRT]

So I've come to a realization having talked this whole Rey knows how to use the force and a lightsaber thing.
She's Luke's daughter. And he had already begun her training when Ren fell to the dark side and he left her to keep her safe. Which also explains Luke's defeated anger at the end of the movie. He wasn't running from Ren, but his daughter.
So her innate knowledge of sabers and the Force comes from having actually been training by her dad, but abandonment and PTSD have forced her to forget her origins.

Calling it now, Rey is Luke's daughter.

I called it when Anakin's lightsaber started calling to her.